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OK, so you guys say that Jesus created all things through Jesus.
You are entitled to your view. I disagree with it of course.
OK a hypothetical question:
What do we need to do to embrace the Trinitarian faith.
Do we need to become Catholics and embrace the Catholic Faith, which is that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. …Or is it that we are to join one of the daughter organisations from this mother that also believe that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. …
If one of the daughters, which one?
I await your gospel.
If you answer, could you entitle the post, the Trinity Gospel or something recognisable like that.
Thanks.
Quote What did Jesus say? “ye are theos”. No, Jesus said, “Ye are theoi.” Plural. I would hope no one would compare the so-called theoi with the true Theos.
Quote (t8 @ June 01 2007,13:47) OK, so you guys say that Jesus created all things through Jesus. You are entitled to your view. I disagree with it of course.
t8You didnt answer my question!
Did God create all things by and through himself?
Is all things by and through God?
I await a reply!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2007,06:02) Quote (t8 @ June 01 2007,13:47) OK, so you guys say that Jesus created all things through Jesus. You are entitled to your view. I disagree with it of course.
t8You didnt answer my question!
Did God create all things by and through himself?
Is all things by and through God?
I await a reply!
t8Since you will not answer the question, I will answer it.
All things were created by God, through God and for God!
In fact the following show all things were made for the Father and for Jesus.
Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:Rev 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.Rom 11:
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[36] For –>of him<–, and –>through him<–, and –>to him<–, are –>all things<–: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.Again, your argument is a fallacy!
For if you say the “Lord” here is Jesus, then the context clearly shows Jesus is God, and it says all things are “OF or FROM” Jesus.
The Greek word for “OF” is 'ek' which means;
1) out of, from, by, away from
But if you say the “Lord” is the Father, then you admit that all things are through the Father!
Either way you lose.
Once again scripture has corrected you t8.
You should throw away your pride and accept the scriptures for what they say and not force your own interpretation on them like Heb 1:8 and 10, and John 1:1 and John 20:28 and Acts 20:28 and Phil 2.
Hi W,
You quote,
“Rom 11:
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[36] For –>of him<–, and –>through him<–, and –>to him<–, are –>all things<–: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."God does do all things
through His Spirit,
through His commands and
through His precepts.Ps 119
” 98Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me…
104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.”1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Acts 21:4
And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.
Galatians 5:5
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Ephesians 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.It will be a good day when you desist in your search of scripture for stumbling stones and rather seek righteousness.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2007,12:46) Hi W,
You quote,
“Rom 11:
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[36] For –>of him<–, and –>through him<–, and –>to him<–, are –>all things<–: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."God does do all things
through His Spirit,
through His commands and
through His precepts.Ps 119
” 98Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me…
104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.”1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Acts 21:4
And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.
Galatians 5:5
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Ephesians 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.It will be a good day when you desist in your search of scripture for stumbling stones and rather seek righteousness.
NHYou say…
Quote
God does do all things
through His Spirit,
through His commands and
through His precepts.
Do you find anyone of these thing in this scripture?Look again…
Rom 8:36
For –>of him<–, and –>through him<–, and –>to him<–, are –>all things<–: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."It would do you well to start believing the scriptures and throw out your man made doctrines.
t8 claims as well as you that because all things were made by Jesus or “through” Jesus that this is some how proof that Jesus is not the Word that was with God and was God.
But as you can see all things are of him and through him and to him. So take your pick.
Is it the Father or Jesus? Either way the scriptures show that only “One” was involved in the creation of all things!
Only “One being created the Universe”!
There is God, and there is the created! Simple!
Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:26
And God said, Let *us* make man in *our* image, after *our* likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earthIsa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens *alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; *and there is none else*.So just as in the “no man can see God” debate, we have a contradiction right?
Wrong!!!
YHWY spoke these words just as he appeared to moses and spoke to him.
Is YHWH a liar when he said there was “no one else” and that “by himself” he created the heavens and formed the earth?
Or maybe it was John and Paul who were lieing?
Once again, did they not know the Hebrew scriptures?
John said…
Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Jn 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not[/colorOr how about Paul surely he being a Hebrew of the Hebrews knew that God alone created all things?
Paul said…
Col 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.Or how about the writer of the book of Hebrews? Surely he was well versed in Hebrew scriptures and knew these passages?
Yet he says…
Heb 1:
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:But of course the Old Testament scriptures do not take prescedent over the New Testament Scriptures, Right?
Wrong!
YHWH nor the Apostles contradicted each other, for the Word/God that was with God took on the likeness of sinful flesh and fulfilled all that was written of him. For what man could not do…the “Lord from heaven” who created all things came down from heaven and conquered sin and death.
Rom 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; **as it is written**, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.Zech 7:11
But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
Hi W,
You quote
“For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.”Indeed such is our Father and our God.
The ultimate source and the provider and the supplier of all things that the glory may go back to Him.
Do you not yet know our God Who works by His Spirit throughout creation?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2007,17:09) Hi W,
You quote
“For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.”Indeed such is our Father and our God.
The ultimate source and the provider and the supplier of all things that the glory may go back to Him.
Do you not yet know our God Who works by His Spirit throughout creation?
Yes!Such is our God!
Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
All things were created by him and through him!
Hi W,
You say
“Such is our God!Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”
So your God is not that of Jesus?
Jn20
“17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. “Whence is this new God?
Hi W,
Alternatively did the nature of God change when Jesus came?
Did the ONE God revealed in the OT become a binity or a trinity?
He seemed to continue to worship the ONE GOD of the Jews.
Should we not follow him, as he told us to, or rather follow you?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2007,08:38) Hi W,
Alternatively did the nature of God change when Jesus came?
Did the ONE God revealed in the OT become a binity or a trinity?
He seemed to continue to worship the ONE GOD of the Jews.
Should we not follow him, as he told us to, or rather follow you?
NHYou say…
Quote
Alternatively did the nature of God change when Jesus came?No! You are the one saying his nature changed!
You said..
Quote
Hi W,
The Word WAS God.
He is now the Son of God
Do you really think he still is God?
These are your words NH. Do you remember?It seems you do what the politicians do. Change your mind when it seems to work to your advantage.
God did not cease to be God neither did the nature of the Word change, he simply took on the likeness of sinfull flesh just like we “partake” of his divine nature.
You say…
Quote
Did the ONE God revealed in the OT become a binity or a trinity?
No the One God did not change, he simply came down from heaven as the “Lord” from heaven and Identified with man since he is our only Saviour and there is none else.Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and *a Saviour*; there is none beside me.Zech 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Jn 19:
36 these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.Is there “another” Saviour besides YHWH NH?
How many Saviours do you have?
Do you remember the debate? Do you believe the words of the Prophets or do we have to make inference rather than believeing what they say.
You do violence to the scriptures NH!
Look again and study, you might learn something from this devout man of God who wrote this…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311
You say…
Quote
He seemed to continue to worship the ONE GOD of the Jews.
Should we not follow him, as he told us to, or rather follow you?No dont follow me. Follow the Word!
Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and *worshipped him*.Hey look NH… Jesus is in the throne with the Father being worshipped…
rev 5:
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice,Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and *unto the Lamb* for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and *worshipped him* that liveth for ever and ever.[/color]
And you should bow down and call him your Lord and God like Thomas and the thousands upon thousands before he returns.Matt 13:11
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 15 2007,10:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2007,08:38) Hi W,
Alternatively did the nature of God change when Jesus came?
Did the ONE God revealed in the OT become a binity or a trinity?
He seemed to continue to worship the ONE GOD of the Jews.
Should we not follow him, as he told us to, or rather follow you?
NHYou say…
Quote
Alternatively did the nature of God change when Jesus came?No! You are the one saying his nature changed!
You said..
Quote
Hi W,
The Word WAS God.
He is now the Son of God
Do you really think he still is God?
These are your words NH. Do you remember?It seems you do what the politicians do. Change your mind when it seems to work to your advantage.
God did not cease to be God neither did the nature of the Word change, he simply took on the likeness of sinfull flesh just like we “partake” of his divine nature.
You say…
Quote
Did the ONE God revealed in the OT become a binity or a trinity?
No the One God did not change, he simply came down from heaven as the “Lord” from heaven and Identified with man since he is our only Saviour and there is none else.Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and *a Saviour*; there is none beside me.Zech 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Jn 19:
36 these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.Is there “another” Saviour besides YHWH NH?
How many Saviours do you have?
Do you remember the debate? Do you believe the words of the Prophets or do we have to make inference rather than believeing what they say.
You do violence to the scriptures NH!
Look again and study, you might learn something from this devout man of God who wrote this…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311
You say…
Quote
He seemed to continue to worship the ONE GOD of the Jews.
Should we not follow him, as he told us to, or rather follow you?No dont follow me. Follow the Word!
Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and *worshipped him*.Hey look NH… Jesus is in the throne with the Father being worshipped…
rev 5:
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice,Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and *unto the Lamb* for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and *worshipped him* that liveth for ever and ever.[/color]
And you should bow down and call him your Lord and God like Thomas and the thousands upon thousands before he returns.Matt 13:11
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Hi W,
You say that God is three persons.
One of them for you is the Son of God.
The Son of God came and worshiped our God
Was Jesus also the God worshiped by the OT Jews?
No he is the Son of God and they worshiped his Father.
He showed us the way and told us true worshipers worship the Father.
Are you among them?Hi W,
Was God pierced?
psst
God does not have a body,
and is invisible,
and cannot die.You need to reexamine your evidence.
You will find the one who died was the
Son of God.Hi W,
You say
“God did not cease to be God neither did the nature of the Word change, he simply took on the likeness of sinfull flesh just like we “partake” of his divine nature.”So since he is alike to us and we do not become God then neither was he ever our God?
Worshipping Jesus
Quote Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and *worshipped him*.Hey look NH… Jesus is in the throne with the Father being worshipped…
rev 5:
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice,Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and *unto the Lamb* for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and *worshipped him* that liveth for ever and ever.[/color]
And you should bow down and call him your Lord and God like Thomas and the thousands upon thousands before he returns.Matt 13:11
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Hi Nick. I think that you should also worship Jesus. Stephen did.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.Stephen kneeled down, (not fell down) prayed directly to and worshipped Jesus.
Zec 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2007,11:47) Hi W,
Was God pierced?
psst
God does not have a body,
and is invisible,
and cannot die.You need to reexamine your evidence.
You will find the one who died was the
Son of God.
Psst.God does have a body!
1]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word/God was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
And the Word/God did not cease to be God.
Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.The Eternal Logos the Word that was with God and was God, did not die, 1Jn 1:1,2 But he offered up his body as a living sacrifice. The Body of God died.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the *church of God*, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2007,11:56) Hi W,
You say
“God did not cease to be God neither did the nature of the Word change, he simply took on the likeness of sinfull flesh just like we “partake” of his divine nature.”So since he is alike to us and we do not become God then neither was he ever our God?
NHTake your Henotheistic glasses off.
“Partaking” of the divine nature and “Being” the divine nature is two different things.
Jesus is the “Express image of the invisible God”, “the exact representation of his substance”.
Are you?
Remember NH, there is the Creator and the Created.
You try to make Jesus into just one of the “sons of God”
He is the “Monogenes”, Unique, Son!
Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3 Col:1:16,17 Heb 1:3, 10.
Yoiu should raise your sights as to who this Jesus is that you claim to be your Lord and Master.
Remember, you can only have “One Lord and Master”!!!
There is Only “One God” And “Creator” of all things.
Selah
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,04:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2007,11:47) Hi W,
Was God pierced?
psst
God does not have a body,
and is invisible,
and cannot die.You need to reexamine your evidence.
You will find the one who died was the
Son of God.
Psst.God does have a body!
1]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word/God was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
And the Word/God did not cease to be God.
Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.The Eternal Logos the Word that was with God and was God, did not die, 1Jn 1:1,2 But he offered up his body as a living sacrifice. The Body of God died.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the *church of God*, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Hi W,
So God has a body,
as the Son of God?So immutable God came in the flesh
but always had a flesh body?Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom
But you say God is flesh and blood?Ahhh! The magnifying follies of deviating from truth.
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