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Hi Tim2
I wrote the following “Had 'theos' as well as 'logos' been preceded by the article the meaning would have been that the Word was completely identical with God, which is impossible if the Word was also 'with God'. What is meant is that the Word shared the nature of God, or was an extension of the personality of God.” I believe as the Son of God he shared the nature and personality of God. Read Col 2:9 (King James) For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead. or as the (New American Standard)reads “For in him all the fullness of Deity (Divine attributes and nature) dwells in bodily form.” These scriptures do not say that Jesus is Deity. If we read 1Corinthians 6:19 What! know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? Does this mean I am the Holy Gost because he dwells in me? Also Read 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (King James) “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Why does Paul seperate God in Jesus in this way, Why did he not just use the first part of verse 6. Empasis is also on 'and we in Him' meaning God and 'and we by him' Jesus. But if we read this in the context of John 1:1-18 it makes perfect sense. Can you explain 1Corinthians 15:27-28 I Quote verse 28 'And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Also read the New American Standard version quite interesting. However I prefer to use the KJV though.
marthinus
Tim2
See 1Corinthians 3:23 and ye are Christ's and Christ is God's This does not say Christ is God.marthinus
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 16 2007,05:00) Quote (Cult Buster @ May 16 2007,01:43) Marthinus Quote Hi Cult B I asked you the other day to explain Psalm 22 (also the words Jesus quoted on the cross) Also Proverbs 8:22-36 Please explain these Scriptures from the Old Testament.
Hi Marthinus. Do you believe that Proverbs 8:22-36 is referring to Christ?
The context clearly shows that the passage is referring to God's own eternal attribute of Wisdom: See the first verse.
Pro 8:1 Does not wisdom call? And does not understanding speak?
Marthinus.
With Psalm 22, we must consider it in the context of Christ's incarnation or His mission as Messiah. Please see the following which I have posted before. I hope that I have addressed all of your comments. CB.There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God. Some focus on Christ's incarnation as a man, yet they ignore the overwhelming evidence of His deity.
When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.
Some on this forum just want to look at Bible verses that are in the context of Christ mission as Messiah but don't like when shown the multitude of scripture identifying Him as the divine Jehovah God.
Jesus Christ is the creator, not a creature and will always be equal to the Father in this sense. Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God”.However, before the incarnation, Jesus made a choice to submit to the Father as His head. He had to live in His humanity as a man depending on God for power. Jesus did not give up being God, He was subject to and obeying the Father while living as a man or within the context of He being Messiah and High Priest which is still continuing
]Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
A human body was fashioned for Christ. A body which had sinful propensities just like ours. A body less than what Adam had, weakened by the curse of sin.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh
Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He resisted sin. Don’t forget that He laid aside His divine power and did not use it for His own benefit, overcoming temptation relying on God for power. We too can resist temptation if we rely on God for power. Christ was our example.
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Luk 4:2 (Jesus) Being forty days tempted of the devil.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
]Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us
There are some instances in the scripture where Jesus calls the Father..His God and says the Father is greater than I.
In these instances Jesus was encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission as Messiah and High Priest is not yet over.
Even within the Godhead each Divine Person recognise and have reverence for the other as God.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom
The phrase “O God” is a worshipful phrase indicating the reverence each Person of the Godhead have one for another. Each recognises the other as their God. Each are willing to submit one to the other.
Within the Godhead a plan was made for the salvation of man. It is evident that each divine Person within the Godhead takes on a different office or role. It is a pity that we too cannot learn the character and humility of God.
Jesus said.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God
The Pharisees understood that Jesus was claiming deity and equality with God, that is why they tried to stone Him.
Jesus could have told them that they misunderstood Him, but He didn't. Jesus knew that the Pharisees understood His assertion of deity and did not correct them.
Jesus could have said “Listen fellas, you misunderstood me. I was not blaspheming by claiming to be God.” But Jesus did not correct them, thus confirming His deity to them.
Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God”, refer
ring to Jesus.However, before the incarnation, Jesus made a choice to submit to the Father as His head. He had to live in His humanity as a man depending on God for power. Jesus did not give up being God, He was subject to and obeying the Father while living as a man.
The Father would maintain the head position and He would become the central One to pray to. He does not minister to us in the direct way of the Son and Holy Spirit. He would not have the central focus to save mankind and to eventually be as highly exalted as the Saviour. He is self effacing in this respect.
Each member of the Godhead took on a position that was selfless to the extreme and thus revealing the character of God.
Jesus said
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.We can stand in awe of the great love, humility and even servanthood of the Godhead.
The apostle Paul understood just who Jesus was when he wrote the following
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Paul had studied the scriptures that testified of Christ.
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.That is why Paul said
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ
We sometimes see statements like
1 Pet. 1:3, RS: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”
John 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
This is also in the context of Christ mission as Messiah.
In these instances Jesus was either encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission as Messiah and High Priest is still continuing.Thus, Jesus' office as Messiah and Mediator will cease in time, but not His Godhood, since Scripture teaches that He will be “all in all” just as His Father is.(Colossians 3:11)
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.
JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.
JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
*TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
+ACTS 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.*ISAIAH 43:11 I, {even} I, {am} the Lord(Jehovah); and beside me {there is} no saviour.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
CBGood post.
41 scriptures in one exegesis.
Hi w,
Quoting 41 scriptures to reach a false conclusion that God is other than He told us is unhelpful.Marthinus
Quote I agree with jou fully that Jesus Christ is the creator in the context of John 1:1-18. You mention Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God…” Yea this is a stumbling block for many (Jehovas witnesses etc) but let us look at it in depth and in context with rest of the Gospel of John. I used as reference the works of F.F.Bruce. In the creation narrative at the beginning of Genesis we read repeatedly that 'God said…..and it was so' This can be expressed in other terms, as in Ps 33.6, 'By the word of the LORD the heavens were made'. When this form of language is used , the way is open to personify 'the word of the LORD' and treat it as his agent or messenger.
The Bible tells us clearly that only God was involved in creation.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The Bible makes it clear that all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in creation. This includes Christ (Jehovah) and Jehovah the Holy Spirit.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)Christ was the principal Person within the Godhead responsible for creation.
“All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.”
(John 1:3)“You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.”
(Heb 1:10)– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)Who was this Word of God, the Creator?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!
– – “A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”
Jehovah alone created the universe.
See the following.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities or agents outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.
(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah.
The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.
The universe was made for and by Jesus our Jehovah God, and through His creative power.
Let us take a closer look at John chapter one.
John 1:1 in a literal translation reads thus: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.”
Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.” Let me break it down into three statements.
“In beginning was the word…”
(en arche en ho logos)“and the word was with the God…”
(kai ho logos en pros ton theon)“and God was the word.”
(kai theos en ho logos)— Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”
So that there is no confusion as to whom this God is that is called the Word. See V14. It is Jesus our Jehovah God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
Refering obviously to Jesus who in V2 is described as God.
Marthinus
Quote Can you explain 1Corinthians 15:27-28 I Quote verse 28 'And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Also read the New American Standard version quite interesting. However I prefer to use the KJV though. These verses and others have been utilized historically by Arians (of whom Jehovah's Witnesses are a revival), to try to “prove” that Jesus is lesser than the Father and therefore not God in the flesh.
Upon closer inspection, however, a clearer picture emerges.
See the following.Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.Christ subjected Himself to the Father in order to undertake His role as the Incarnate Son and Mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5).
Similarly, one might say that “the President of the United States is a greater man than I am,” but this would not mean he was necessarily a better man. In any event, he is still a man like us.
Since Jesus is still God, even while “humbling” Himself (Phil 2:8), Scripture also indicates that the Father is, in a sense, “subject” to the Son:
JOHN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew {it} unto you.
JOHN 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give {it} you.When the Father is called the “head” of the Son (1 Cor 11:3), this also does not entail any lessening of the equality between the Son and the Father.
The Bible also talks about wives being subject to their husbands (1 Pet 3:1,5), even while the two are equals (Gal 3:28, Eph 5:21-22), and indeed, “one flesh” (Mt 19:5-6).
Likewise, one Person of the Godhead (Jesus) can be in subjection to another Person (during His human incarnation and Messiahship) and yet remain God in essence and substance (Phil 2:6-8).
Likewise, in 1 Cor 15:28, the subjection spoken of is that of the Son as incarnate, not the Son as Son in essence. While this verse tells us that God will be “all in all,”
Colossians 3:11 tells us that “. . . Christ {is} all, and in all.”
Is 1:18
Quote a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11, cf. Eph. 1:23) The grammar that was used of “God” in 1 Corinthians was also used of “Christ” in Colossians. I really like what C. H. Spurgeon wrote about this verse – “for Christ is not almost all, but all in all.” (source). Indeed Christ is all. Amen to that
Thus, Jesus' office as Messiah and Mediator will cease in time, but not His Godhood, since Scripture teaches that He will be “all in all” just as the Father is.
Jesus is “all in all” Jehovah God
Hi CultB
Just to clear things up I dont believe what the Arians and Jehova Witnesses believe. I do not believe that Jesus was a created being. My Belief is based on what I see and read in scripture, and I ask myself Why did Jesus not just say it in clear unambigous terms that he is God in the same clear way that he said that he was the Son. Why did he not explain the God Head or trinity in clear language to his disciples he would have known that one day there would be people like us debating that very issue and it is not just us, but it has happened through the ages, people burned on the stake because of this. Why is it so hard when it it actually so clear.marthinus
Hi Marthinus,
Perhaps God wants us to get into His Word and search for truth.
Those who search with their whole heart will find it. Those who are looking for hooks to hang their doubts will find them. There also are those who intentionally misuse scripture to try to prove error because they don't love the truth.2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.The Word of God tests our motives and intentions.
Consider also the following:
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.CB.
Quote (t8 @ May 10 2007,04:49) Quote (t8 @ May 07 2007,18:47) Quote (t8 @ April 23 2007,16:20) Quote (Cult Buster @ April 17 2007,19:20) Hi t8. We could argue over Bible translations or play word games, but the scripture tells us that only God was involved in creation.
Hi CultB.So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?
Hi CultB.So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?
Hi CultB.So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?
A simple yes and no, so I know where you stand.
Thanks.
Hi CultB.So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?
A simple yes and no, so I know where you stand.
Thanks.
Quote (marthinus @ May 17 2007,23:13) Hi CultB
Just to clear things up I dont believe what the Arians and Jehova Witnesses believe. I do not believe that Jesus was a created being. My Belief is based on what I see and read in scripture, and I ask myself Why did Jesus not just say it in clear unambigous terms that he is God in the same clear way that he said that he was the Son. Why did he not explain the God Head or trinity in clear language to his disciples he would have known that one day there would be people like us debating that very issue and it is not just us, but it has happened through the ages, people burned on the stake because of this. Why is it so hard when it it actually so clear.marthinus
Hi marthinus .I like your answer.
Carnal men like to label you and they will call you whatever category their carnal mind can comprehend. Also carnality cannot grasp the things of the Spirit.
Such people try to find out if you are a follower of Paul, Apollos, Arius, Athanasius, Donald Duck, or whoever.
It is true what you say. We should believe what is written. When you do that and men accuse you, then they are simply pointing the finger at the one who inspired the writing that you believe.
Quote (Cult Buster @ May 17 2007,21:17) Hi Marthinus, Perhaps God wants us to get into His Word and search for truth.
Those who search with their whole heart will find it. Those who are looking for hooks to hang their doubts will find them. There also are those who intentionally misuse scripture to try to prove error because they don't love the truth.2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.The Word of God tests our motives and intentions.
Consider also the following:
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.CB.
Hi CB,
You want the approval of God?
Then abide in the Word of God.Quote Hi CultB. So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?
A simple yes and no, so I know where you stand.
Thanks.
t8. I have answer your question twice before and you still play word games because that is all you have available to you.
The Bible tells us clearly that only God was involved in creation. The scripture tells us that all things were created by Jesus so creation happened through the works of His hands.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The Bible makes it clear that all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in creation. This includes Christ (Jehovah) and Jehovah the Holy Spirit.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)Christ was the principal Person within the Godhead responsible for creation.
“All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.”
“You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.”
(Heb 1:10)– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)Who was this Word of God, the Creator?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!
– – “A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”
Jehovah alone created the universe.
See the following.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities or agents outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.
(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah.
The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.
The universe was made for and by Jesus our Jehovah God, and through His creative power.
Let us take a closer look at John chapter one.
John 1:1 in a literal translation reads thus: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.”
Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.” Let me break it down into three statements.
“In beginning was the word…”
(en arche en ho logos)“and the word was with the God…”
(kai ho logos en pros ton theon)“and God was the word.”
(kai theos en ho logos)— Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”
So that there is no confusion as to whom this God is that is called the Word. See V14. It is Jesus our Jehovah God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
It is clear that Jesus is Jehovah God
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Hi CB,
What did God mean when He said in Gen 1
” 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”?
Was God alone?
Were not the sons of God with Him?
Was God speaking only to Himself?
If God was alone and speaking to Himself where else does God speak of Himself as an US?Nick.
Quote Hi CB,
What did God mean when He said in Gen 1
” 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.Nick. You have just identified the Godhead. The “Us” and the “Our” which are plural pronouns, refer to the Godhead.
The Bible tells us clearly that only God participated in creation. The scripture tells us that all things were created by Jesus so creation happened through the works of His hands.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The Bible makes it clear that all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in creation. This includes Christ (Jehovah) and Jehovah the Holy Spirit.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)Christ was the principal Person within the Godhead responsible for creation.
“All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.”
“You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.”
(Heb 1:10)– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)Who was this Word of God, the Creator?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!
– – “A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”
Jehovah alone created the universe.
See the following.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Yes, Jehovah created everything alone; that is by Himself. All three divine Persons collectively called God or the Godhead created. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities or agents outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.
(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah.
The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ. The Holy Spirit
also created. Thus He is Jehovah God.The universe was made for and by Jesus our Jehovah God, and through His creative power. The Holy Spirit and the Father were also involved in creation, however the scriptures indicate that it was Christ Jehovah who was at the forefront.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Hi CB,
You say about Genesis.
“Nick. You have just identified the Godhead. The “Us” and the “Our” which are plural pronouns, refer to the Godhead.”
“Christ was the principal Person within the Godhead responsible for creation.”I know this is a popular idea that God was talking to Himself. How do you know this, and that He who is God was not discussing things with the heavenly council which does exist?[ps 82,89, jb1-2]. If Christ is as you say why the “US” and not “you” in the verse if they are three separate deities?
Quote do you know this, and that He who is God was not discussing things with the heavenly council which does exist?[ps 82,89, jb1-2] I don't see a discussion in Psalm 82.
Psalm 89 says God is feared by the council of the holy ones. Again, no discussion.
Job 1-2 shows God talking to Satan. You think Satan is created in the “Us” when God says, “Let Us make man in Our image”?God doesn't take council from anyone. Romans 11:34.
Tim
Quote (Cult Buster @ May 21 2007,22:05) Quote Hi CultB. So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?
A simple yes and no, so I know where you stand.
Thanks.
t8. I have answer your question twice before and you still play word games because that is all you have available to you.
The Bible tells us clearly that only God was involved in creation. The scripture tells us that all things were created by Jesus so creation happened through the works of His hands.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The Bible makes it clear that all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in creation. This includes Christ (Jehovah) and Jehovah the Holy Spirit.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)Christ was the principal Person within the Godhead responsible for creation.
“All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.”
“You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.”
(Heb 1:10)– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)Who was this Word of God, the Creator?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!
– – “A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”
Jehovah alone created the universe.
See the following.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities or agents outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.
(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah.
The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.
The universe was made for and by Jesus our Jehovah God, and through His creative power.
Let us take a closer look at John chapter one.
John 1:1 in a literal translation reads thus: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.”
Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.” Let me break it down into three statements.
“In beginning was the word…”
(en arche en ho logos)“and the word was with the God…”
(kai ho logos en pros ton theon)“and God was the word.”
(kai theos en ho logos)— Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”
So that there is no confusion as to whom this God is that is called the Word. See V14. It is Jesus our Jehovah God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
It is clear that Jesus is Jehovah God
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
CultB.Let your yes be yes and your no be no. You can also answer “I don't know”. I wont hold it against you.
So again:
So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?
A simple yes and no, so I know where you stand.
Thanks.
Quote (Tim2 @ May 23 2007,01:51) Quote do you know this, and that He who is God was not discussing things with the heavenly council which does exist?[ps 82,89, jb1-2] I don't see a discussion in Psalm 82.
Psalm 89 says God is feared by the council of the holy ones. Again, no discussion.
Job 1-2 shows God talking to Satan. You think Satan is created in the “Us” when God says, “Let Us make man in Our image”?God doesn't take council from anyone. Romans 11:34.
Tim
Hi Tim.Regarding “us” in Genesis, why can't it be God talking to Christ/Logos?
After all it is written that God created all things THROUGH Christ.
I agree, t8, that the Logos is included in the “Us” of Genesis, just as He is included in the “Us” in John 17:21. This supports the view that Jesus is God, in my opinion, as God is the only one mentioned in Genesis.
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