Trinity Challenge #3

[kejonn]

This is a “kindler and gentler” Trinity challenge than my previous 2 challenges. That is, it has no real restrictions, but poses questions of the “what” and “why” type. In answering the questions of this challenge, please try to use you own knowledge and scripture only. IOW, no copying answers from somewhere else  . If you hold it to be true, then you must be able to adequately describe it.

Here are the questions to be answered in this challenge:

1) What is the Trinity in your own words?
2) Why must the Trinity be true?
3) Why must the 3 members of the Trinity be equal?
4) Does the Trinity say that the 3 members are collectively YHWH or Elohim?
5) What does Deuteronomy 6:4 mean to you?

Thanks for honest, sincere answers. I would ask that the first few posts be from those who support the doctrine and that others refrain from posting in the thread until we have some answers from Trinitarians. I would also request that all of us would refrain from using words such as “the Trinity is false”, “harlot”, “Babylon”, etc. Some of us came from the Trinitarian “camp” and I don't think we were less spiritual or loved by God because of it, nor do I think that of others who still believe.

Finally, lets all try to stick within the boundaries of the questions above.

Thanks again.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kejonn @ July 14 2007,03:23)

This is a “kindler and gentler” Trinity challenge than my previous 2 challenges. That is, it has no real restrictions, but poses questions of the “what” and “why” type. In answering the questions of this challenge, please try to use you own knowledge and scripture only. IOW, no copying answers from somewhere else  . If you hold it to be true, then you must be able to adequately describe it. Here are the questions to be answered in this challenge: 1) What is the Trinity in your own words? 2) Why must the Trinity be true? 3) Why must the 3 members of the Trinity be equal? 4) Does the Trinity say that the 3 members are collectively YHWH or Elohim? 5) What does Deuteronomy 6:4 mean to you? Thanks for honest, sincere answers. I would ask that the first few posts be from those who support the doctrine and that others refrain from posting in the thread until we have some answers from Trinitarians. I would also request that all of us would refrain from using words such as “the Trinity is false”, “harlot”, “Babylon”, etc. Some of us came from the Trinitarian “camp” and I don't think we were less spiritual or loved by God because of it, nor do I think that of others who still believe. Finally, lets all try to stick within the boundaries of the questions above. Thanks again.

kejonn

Why dont you read over the hundreds of pages in the “Trinity” true or false thread and you will get your answers!

It wouldnt matter what we say. You have set your heart against the answers we have already given!

[kejonn]

WJ,

Actually, I did read the first 89 pages of the Trinity thread and then started participating. In those first 89 pages, I don't recall anyone really answering the questions I posed in this thread. In fact, I've yet to see a Trinitarian define what they feel the Trinity is on this board. Not once. There's a whole lot of back and forth about Yeshua being God, but not groundwork on the belief of the Trinity itself.

The reason I ask these questions is to start out with the basics, the premises of Trinitarianism. Its like working on a car — you just can't start replacing everything, you have to be methodic. The same can be said of a belief such as the Trinity.

I'm not looking to disprove so much as see where the need for the doctrine came about. I think these questions cover that.

For instance, I will tackle Dt 6:4 myself because I think there is some confusion on both sides over this seemingly simple verse.

NASB – Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

KJV – Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

This is the base verse for monotheism as it relates to Judaism. The Jews truly knew one God because I believe that was all that was revealed to them for whatever reason. But lets look at what the verse says, and why it CAN support the Trinity doctrine without any funny manipulation.

If you believe that the Trinity is 3 Gods = 1 YHWH, this verse says “no”. If you believe that 3 Gods = 1 God, this verse does not exclude this from being a reality.

“YHWH our God is one YHWH” – says only one YHWH, but also says that YHWH is the God of the Israelites. This does not say that God — Elohim, a plural form of majesty — has to be just one but could be a classification, like Man.

The Israelites used YHWH and Elohim (when it was seen as “God”) interchangeably. That is why they were strictly monotheistic. YHWH = only one YHWH. YHWH is their God.

In the end, I think mankind is confused over the word “God”. YHWH was what the Jews knew, and He is one. But God? Are they the same? That is the confusion, because men can be called gods, demons can be called gods, gods of other religions can be called gods. You get the picture? I think the issue lies in that both the Hebrew and Hreek were not so quick to put words into their writings that were “new”. We are used to doing this all the time.

Let me ask this: why do we see LORD God in some verse of the OT, but just God in several others? Food for thought.

[david]

The phrase “Lord God” almost never appears in the Bible. That is, it appears in Bibles, but these are misrepresentations.

You'll notice that “LORD” is in capital letters. That is to remind you that this is where they have replaced God's name with the title “LORD.”

Quote

I'm not looking to disprove so much as see where the need for the doctrine came about.

A HUGE CATALYST for the trinity doctrine was the removal of God's name from the Bible some 7000 times and being replaced with titles like “LORD” and “GOD” (in capital letters often).

Today’s English Version: A footnote on Exodus 6:3 states:

“THE LORD: . . . Where the Hebrew text has Yahweh, traditionally transliterated as Jehovah, this translation employs LORD with capital letters, following a usage which is widespread in English versions.”

Revised Standard Version: A footnote on Exodus 3:15 says:

“The word LORD when spelled with capital letters, stands for the divine name, YHWH.”

Douay Version: A footnote on Exodus 6:3 says:

“My name Adonai. The name, which is in the Hebrew text, is that most proper name of God, which signifieth his eternal, self-existing being, (Exod. 3, 14,) which the Jews out of reverence never pronounce; but, instead of it, whenever it occurs in the Bible, they read Adonai, which signifies the Lord; and, therefore, they put the points or vowels, which belong to the name Adonai, to the four letters of that other ineffable name, Jod, He, Vau, He. Hence some moderns have framed the name of Jehovah, unknown to all the ancients, whether Jews or Christians; for the true pronunciation of the name, which is in the Hebrew text, by long disuse is now quite lost.”

*

Why do many Bible translations not use the personal name of God or use it only a few times?

The preface of the Revised Standard Version explains:

“For two reasons the Committee has returned to the more familiar usage of the King James Version: (1) the word ‘Jehovah’ does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew; and (2) the use of any proper name for the one and only God, as though there were other gods from whom he had to be distinguished, was discontinued in Judaism before the Christian era and is entirely inappropriate for the universal faith of the Christian Church.”
(Thus their own view of what is appropriate has been relied on as the basis for removing from the Holy Bible the personal name of its Divine Author, whose name appears in the original Hebrew more often than any other name or any title. They admittedly follow the example of the adherents of Judaism, of whom Jesus said: “You have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.”—Matt. 15:6.)

This removal of God's name some 7000 times has greatly added to the trinity belief. Without this removal, I really don't see anyone ever falling for it, or buying it.
Read a Bible that has God's name in it, as it originally was and you will have a totally different feel. You will understand Jehovah as a person and not as some mysterious impersonal nameless “LORD.”

david

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