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This one will be much harder. Since there were so many who listened and followed Jesus, and since so many believe that the concept of Trinity is so vital to our faith, please show us that those who followed him and believed on his words were not lost because they had no concept of the Trinity. IOW, please provide strong evidence of the Trinity using only the words of the one is supposed to be 1/3rd of the triune God, Jesus. This evidence should show co-equality, co-eternal existence, and three persons in one God.
Thanks!
Wow, guess Jesus didn't know he was part of the triune God. I hope he “got a clue” when he got back to Heaven. He should be glad that those who came after him were able to show us his error.
This is Mrs. IM4Truth, Are you making fun of the scriptures? I don't think Jesus appreciates you saying what you just did. I don't like what you wrote either. Read Ephesian 4:4-6 that scripture should clear up your confusion about the trinity Doctrine. Men invented it and it is wrong. I used to be in the Cath. Church and know what the trinity Doctrine is. You cant find it in your Bible. As far as Jesus is concerned ” HE IS OUR SAVIOR AND WE WORSHIP GOD TROUGH HIM” HE IS OUR MEDIATOR Study your Bible daily is the best advice I can give you, if that is what you want.
No, I'm just showing Jesus did not teach the Trinity. Some feel that this doctrine is essential to Christianity and I want them to show that the one who originated Christianity taught such a belief. If they cannot, I can only assume that they think they know more than the one whose name is the basis of their faith.
KEJONN don't you know that Quintus Septimus Tertullian came up with the trinity doctrine? He later retracted it and then left the Church. IM4Trutj
I'm not concerned who conceived the Trinity, just that it was NOT taught by Jesus. Again, I must repeat, if the doctrine is supposedly foundational to our faith, and it directly involved Jesus, why did he not teach it? That is why I issued this challenge.
K
Tell you what, You show us where Jesus said he “was not God” and we will show you were he said he was.
Oh and by the way the rule is you have to do it in light of John 1:1 and John 20:28, and Heb 1:8.
Also it has to be “Unambiguous” and not grey.
Also maybe you could grace us with your scriptural “Proof” the Trinitarian faith is not true by using scripture.
BTW. It has to be “Unambiguous”. Not just the usuall “Trinity is false”, Trinity is not written” “Trinity is of the Whore”.
I see you do a lot of that, but give us no scriptural proof of what you say.
Notice these statements… “Trinity is false”, Trinity is not written” “Trinity is of the Whore”. are not in the Bible either!
Hi W,
So you agree that Jesus made no claim to being a part of any trinity
and you must find some plausibility for such ideas by searching in other places?Hi WJ,
Haha
. The challenge was issued already, not the other way around. There are millions of people who have walked the earth who never claimed to be God…I suppose then that they are part of the Trinity too?Did Jesus ever say he wasn't a woman? I guess he might have been a woman then. Did Jesus say he wasn't a homosexual? I guess he may have been gay then. Did Jesus say he wasn't Speed Racer? I guess he might have been Speed Racer then. The list goes on and on.
Of course none of the above are true, but anyone can attribute more to someone or something if they feel they have gathered enough “evidence”.
Hi again WJ,
Sorry to post again but I admit I stopped reading you response after the first few lines. And when do I get ability to edit my posts so I don't have post twice if I need to add? Eh…
Anyway, I've never said the Trinity is false, that it is a whore, or any such thing. I admit that I am leaning towards denying its scriptural validity, but I have yet to come out with such a bold and final statement. I have issued the two Trinity challenges because I desired those who were strong supporters of the Trinity to provide me with clear proof that removed some bases. The first was to remove reference to pre-earth existence. That thread never went anywhere because I don't think it can be done even though I stated that the eternality factor did not have to be provided.
This challenge is the harder of the two, but the one that really lays it down because it just makes the most sense. That is, if knowing the Trinity was so essential, why did Jesus himself not teach it to others, or even to his apostles?
Whoever started calling it the Trinity was the first to mess the whole thing up. Once you started making claims out of the Bible and then labeling them with extra-biblical names rather than sticking with terminology out of the Bible, you will present a problem. Had the original Trinitarians been diligent in this they may have made the belief more palatable. The same thing can be said of the Oneness doctrine. After all, what is one of the first things you hear when people question the Trinity? “The word Trinity is not in the Bible”. Mistake numero uno and it can only go downhill from there.
I myself am still trying to reconcile who exactly Jesus is. I know he is my Lord and Savior, that He is the only Begotten Son of God the Father but I do not know for certain if he is indeed equal with God, if he is eternal with the Father.
And once I can get to the truth of Jesus beyond what I do know and adhere to, I must tackle the role of the Holy Spirit. I know it is from God, that Jesus promised it to those who would become the adopted children of God, that it is my comforter, teacher, and what is the same in all who are of Christ. The Holy Spirit binds and drives the Body of Christ. But is it the 3rd member of the Trinity? There is even less concrete evidence than Jesus. There is more evidence that the Holy Spirit is an extension of God, the force that binds us to Him and the conduit from us to Jesus to God. We are the Body, Jesus is the head of the Body, and the Father is the head of Jesus.
These are just some of the things I DO know. I'm still searching for the truth and I hope and pray that God will reveal more as I strive to walk with Him.
Quote (kejonn @ July 04 2007,14:30) Wow, guess Jesus didn't know he was part of the triune God. I hope he “got a clue” when he got back to Heaven. He should be glad that those who came after him were able to show us his error. 
I won't say a word.ACC,
People must not recognize absurdity. It would be absurd to assert that belief in the Trinity was essential for our salvation, because Jesus did not impart such a requirement to those who heard him. He knows exactly who he is, and he knows his relationship to God. And he knew what he came for. And never once did he say something like “This is the way to eternal life, that you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God”.
I'm merely at a point in my walk where I do not deny or support the Trinity, but I do believe it is harmful to persecute others who do believe differently than you on this. That is the truth I want to be shown, and that is why I struggle to know the facts on the Trinity. I dislike other Christians thinking I'm “travelling down a road of heresy” because I question the validity of the Trinity.
Quote (kejonn @ July 03 2007,13:42) This one will be much harder. Since there were so many who listened and followed Jesus, and since so many believe that the concept of Trinity is so vital to our faith, please show us that those who followed him and believed on his words were not lost because they had no concept of the Trinity. IOW, please provide strong evidence of the Trinity using only the words of the one is supposed to be 1/3rd of the triune God, Jesus. This evidence should show co-equality, co-eternal existence, and three persons in one God. Thanks!
KHow many scriptures do you need before you believe?
Quote (kejonn @ July 05 2007,23:07) Hi again WJ, Sorry to post again but I admit I stopped reading you response after the first few lines. And when do I get ability to edit my posts so I don't have post twice if I need to add? Eh…
Anyway, I've never said the Trinity is false, that it is a whore, or any such thing. I admit that I am leaning towards denying its scriptural validity, but I have yet to come out with such a bold and final statement. I have issued the two Trinity challenges because I desired those who were strong supporters of the Trinity to provide me with clear proof that removed some bases. The first was to remove reference to pre-earth existence. That thread never went anywhere because I don't think it can be done even though I stated that the eternality factor did not have to be provided.
This challenge is the harder of the two, but the one that really lays it down because it just makes the most sense. That is, if knowing the Trinity was so essential, why did Jesus himself not teach it to others, or even to his apostles?
Whoever started calling it the Trinity was the first to mess the whole thing up. Once you started making claims out of the Bible and then labeling them with extra-biblical names rather than sticking with terminology out of the Bible, you will present a problem. Had the original Trinitarians been diligent in this they may have made the belief more palatable. The same thing can be said of the Oneness doctrine. After all, what is one of the first things you hear when people question the Trinity? “The word Trinity is not in the Bible”. Mistake numero uno and it can only go downhill from there.
I myself am still trying to reconcile who exactly Jesus is. I know he is my Lord and Savior, that He is the only Begotten Son of God the Father but I do not know for certain if he is indeed equal with God, if he is eternal with the Father.
And once I can get to the truth of Jesus beyond what I do know and adhere to, I must tackle the role of the Holy Spirit. I know it is from God, that Jesus promised it to those who would become the adopted children of God, that it is my comforter, teacher, and what is the same in all who are of Christ. The Holy Spirit binds and drives the Body of Christ. But is it the 3rd member of the Trinity? There is even less concrete evidence than Jesus. There is more evidence that the Holy Spirit is an extension of God, the force that binds us to Him and the conduit from us to Jesus to God. We are the Body, Jesus is the head of the Body, and the Father is the head of Jesus.
These are just some of the things I DO know. I'm still searching for the truth and I hope and pray that God will reveal more as I strive to walk with Him.
KDont feel bad, I have been a member of this forum since Oct of last year and dont have editing rights.
I suppose it has to do with me being “Trinitarian”.
I am sure t8 will give you editing rights if you ask!
Most non-trinitarians have those rights!
Blessings!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,05:01) Quote (kejonn @ July 05 2007,23:07) Hi again WJ, Sorry to post again but I admit I stopped reading you response after the first few lines. And when do I get ability to edit my posts so I don't have post twice if I need to add? Eh…
Anyway, I've never said the Trinity is false, that it is a whore, or any such thing. I admit that I am leaning towards denying its scriptural validity, but I have yet to come out with such a bold and final statement. I have issued the two Trinity challenges because I desired those who were strong supporters of the Trinity to provide me with clear proof that removed some bases. The first was to remove reference to pre-earth existence. That thread never went anywhere because I don't think it can be done even though I stated that the eternality factor did not have to be provided.
This challenge is the harder of the two, but the one that really lays it down because it just makes the most sense. That is, if knowing the Trinity was so essential, why did Jesus himself not teach it to others, or even to his apostles?
Whoever started calling it the Trinity was the first to mess the whole thing up. Once you started making claims out of the Bible and then labeling them with extra-biblical names rather than sticking with terminology out of the Bible, you will present a problem. Had the original Trinitarians been diligent in this they may have made the belief more palatable. The same thing can be said of the Oneness doctrine. After all, what is one of the first things you hear when people question the Trinity? “The word Trinity is not in the Bible”. Mistake numero uno and it can only go downhill from there.
I myself am still trying to reconcile who exactly Jesus is. I know he is my Lord and Savior, that He is the only Begotten Son of God the Father but I do not know for certain if he is indeed equal with God, if he is eternal with the Father.
And once I can get to the truth of Jesus beyond what I do know and adhere to, I must tackle the role of the Holy Spirit. I know it is from God, that Jesus promised it to those who would become the adopted children of God, that it is my comforter, teacher, and what is the same in all who are of Christ. The Holy Spirit binds and drives the Body of Christ. But is it the 3rd member of the Trinity? There is even less concrete evidence than Jesus. There is more evidence that the Holy Spirit is an extension of God, the force that binds us to Him and the conduit from us to Jesus to God. We are the Body, Jesus is the head of the Body, and the Father is the head of Jesus.
These are just some of the things I DO know. I'm still searching for the truth and I hope and pray that God will reveal more as I strive to walk with Him.
KDont feel bad, I have been a member of this forum since Oct of last year and dont have editing rights.
I suppose it has to do with me being “Trinitarian”.
I am sure t8 will give you editing rights if you ask!
Most non-trinitarians have those rights!
Blessings!
From what I understand, having editing rights has nothing to do with being Trinitarian or non-Trinitarians, it has do with being trustworthy. If you have shown yourself to be trustworthy, and you have a bit of history, all you need to do is ask t8 on the “Admin” thread and editing rights will be granted. This is my understanding.I know Tim2 thought receiving the “Associated Member” status had to do with being “in” the “club” – but it means no such thing! However, if you are abusive towards others (like I feel Tim2 was), I doubt that such a person would receive editing rights, but I don't know.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,06:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,05:01) Quote (kejonn @ July 05 2007,23:07) Hi again WJ, Sorry to post again but I admit I stopped reading you response after the first few lines. And when do I get ability to edit my posts so I don't have post twice if I need to add? Eh…
Anyway, I've never said the Trinity is false, that it is a whore, or any such thing. I admit that I am leaning towards denying its scriptural validity, but I have yet to come out with such a bold and final statement. I have issued the two Trinity challenges because I desired those who were strong supporters of the Trinity to provide me with clear proof that removed some bases. The first was to remove reference to pre-earth existence. That thread never went anywhere because I don't think it can be done even though I stated that the eternality factor did not have to be provided.
This challenge is the harder of the two, but the one that really lays it down because it just makes the most sense. That is, if knowing the Trinity was so essential, why did Jesus himself not teach it to others, or even to his apostles?
Whoever started calling it the Trinity was the first to mess the whole thing up. Once you started making claims out of the Bible and then labeling them with extra-biblical names rather than sticking with terminology out of the Bible, you will present a problem. Had the original Trinitarians been diligent in this they may have made the belief more palatable. The same thing can be said of the Oneness doctrine. After all, what is one of the first things you hear when people question the Trinity? “The word Trinity is not in the Bible”. Mistake numero uno and it can only go downhill from there.
I myself am still trying to reconcile who exactly Jesus is. I know he is my Lord and Savior, that He is the only Begotten Son of God the Father but I do not know for certain if he is indeed equal with God, if he is eternal with the Father.
And once I can get to the truth of Jesus beyond what I do know and adhere to, I must tackle the role of the Holy Spirit. I know it is from God, that Jesus promised it to those who would become the adopted children of God, that it is my comforter, teacher, and what is the same in all who are of Christ. The Holy Spirit binds and drives the Body of Christ. But is it the 3rd member of the Trinity? There is even less concrete evidence than Jesus. There is more evidence that the Holy Spirit is an extension of God, the force that binds us to Him and the conduit from us to Jesus to God. We are the Body, Jesus is the head of the Body, and the Father is the head of Jesus.
These are just some of the things I DO know. I'm still searching for the truth and I hope and pray that God will reveal more as I strive to walk with Him.
KDont feel bad, I have been a member of this forum since Oct of last year and dont have editing rights.
I suppose it has to do with me being “Trinitarian”.
I am sure t8 will give you editing rights if you ask!
Most non-trinitarians have those rights!
Blessings!
From what I understand, having editing rights has nothing to do with being Trinitarian or non-Trinitarians, it has do with being trustworthy. If you have shown yourself to be trustworthy, and you have a bit of history, all you need to do is ask t8 on the “Admin” thread and editing rights will be granted. This is my understanding.I know Tim2 thought receiving the “Associated Member” status had to do with being “in” the “club” – but it means no such thing! However, if you are abusive towards others (like I feel Tim2 was), I doubt that such a person would receive editing rights, but I don't know.
Yea well. I dont see it that way.For how can you know if someone is trustworthy until you give them a chance?
I have seen t8 give the editing rights to new members, I think 94 or m42 was one.
So I dont buy it. I havnt done anything to show that I am not trustworthy.
I have sought to expose the false doctrine on this sight though.
It dosnt matter to me anyway. For I always use the preview button, although there has been a few times I hit the wrong button before I had proofed my writhings.
Hi WJ,
Its just an aggravation though
. Sometimes I use IE and it doesn't have spell check like Firefox or Seamonkey (funny name for a browser!). Anyway, I don't want it to change my posts after a response, but just when I see mistakes. Oh well, I can learn to live with it.I'm used to Simple Machines, so much more user friendly IMO!
Carry on!
Mr. Steve
First I will say, I wont respond to a PM about a post that I have made, expecially from a new comer who hasnt posted on this sight yet!
I will be happy to address your points, but you need to put them out here for all to judge!
Blessings!
Quote (kejonn @ July 06 2007,04:26) ACC, People must not recognize absurdity. It would be absurd to assert that belief in the Trinity was essential for our salvation, because Jesus did not impart such a requirement to those who heard him. He knows exactly who he is, and he knows his relationship to God. And he knew what he came for. And never once did he say something like “This is the way to eternal life, that you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God”.
I'm merely at a point in my walk where I do not deny or support the Trinity, but I do believe it is harmful to persecute others who do believe differently than you on this. That is the truth I want to be shown, and that is why I struggle to know the facts on the Trinity. I dislike other Christians thinking I'm “travelling down a road of heresy” because I question the validity of the Trinity.
I know what you mean and can see where you are coming from.Quote (kejonn @ July 06 2007,04:26) ACC, People must not recognize absurdity. It would be absurd to assert that belief in the Trinity was essential for our salvation, because Jesus did not impart such a requirement to those who heard him. He knows exactly who he is, and he knows his relationship to God. And he knew what he came for. And never once did he say something like “This is the way to eternal life, that you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God”.
I'm merely at a point in my walk where I do not deny or support the Trinity, but I do believe it is harmful to persecute others who do believe differently than you on this. That is the truth I want to be shown, and that is why I struggle to know the facts on the Trinity. I dislike other Christians thinking I'm “travelling down a road of heresy” because I question the validity of the Trinity.
kejonnQuote
I dislike other Christians thinking I'm “travelling down a road of heresy” because I question the validity of the Trinity.Dont you think this is exactly what most on this sight are saying of Trinitarians?
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