Trinity Challenge #1

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July 6, 2007 at 1:42 am#58262

kejonn

Participant

Nick,

I was merely telling WJ my understanding of the Trinity doctrine. I was not supporting it. Not to be mean, but I can see why you have so many posts on here — you seem to “jump the gun” and not check out what posts are all about.

Love ya brother!

July 9, 2007 at 1:10 am#58791

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ July 03 2007,23:27)

So basically we know the answer from WJ and IS :laugh:

. I mean, after all, if the Trinity is what all people say it is, it should be evident without taking 50 scriptures and tying them together and saying “see, I told you so”. Just out of curiosity, I wonder if Philip made certain that the Ethiopian went away with the proper salvation; that is, the salvation that comes from believing in the Trinity. Otherwise, the Ethiopian will not be among the dead in Christ who will rise.

Acts 8:36 -39:

26 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.)
27 So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship,
28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah.
29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.”
30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:
“HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER;
AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT,
SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH.
33 “IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY;
WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION?
FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.”
34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?”
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?”
37 [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”]
38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.

Or how about those poor 3000 that were supposedly saved in Acts 2 after listening to Peter. Acts 2:36-40

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

I wonder if 3000 Trinitarians walked away sure in their salvation, or merely 3000 who believed that Jesus was both Lord and Christ? Nothing in Peter's message to them mentioned the co-equality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No indication of Jesus' existence in eternity. Shame on Peter for teaching some watered down Gospel!

I could give example after example but what would be the point? I just find it sad that so many walked away from the teachings of the Apostles, why of Jesus himself while on earth, without knowing the Trinity. There are obviously some things we could have taught and asked of Jesus had we been with him. We could have asked him, asked the apostles, “Why? Why did you not preach the Trinity? Why did you water down the Gospel message?” I find it shameful myself.

Thank goodness we are able to set the record straight for others. Where Jesus and the Apostles failed, we will not.

Good one.

July 10, 2007 at 12:43 pm#59083

Cult Buster

Participant

Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Compare
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With (John the baptist announcing Jesus)
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Compare
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
With
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

July 10, 2007 at 12:48 pm#59085

Cult Buster

Participant

2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = The God of Israel

Compare
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

With
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = God

Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH): for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = Jehovah

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

July 10, 2007 at 12:55 pm#59086

Cult Buster

Participant

A favorite passage of mine on this topic would have to be Isaiah 6:3 where it says, “And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.” Did you catch that? That's one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!

There are Three separate Beings, each God and equal with one another. Though they hold different offices, they are nevertherless each God.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Isaiah 6:3 says, “And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

” Did you catch that? That's one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

All praise to God the Father… God the Son Jesus Christ… and God the Holy Spirit! ALL Three merit perfect praise. Holy, Holy, Holy! If there is only one God they would not have repeated the worshipful praise three times.

Holy! Holy! Holy!

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

July 10, 2007 at 6:51 pm#59108

NickHassan

Participant

Hi CB,
You are serious?
hmmm

July 10, 2007 at 7:54 pm#59117

Mr. Steve

Participant

The best way to find out who Jesus is to read the scriptures that state what Jesus said with respect to who he was and is. The rule is all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for our learning and instruction… II Tim. 3:16. Just about every writing I read concerning the Godhead is limited to scriptures that only express a limited understanding of Christ. You have requested that the arguments be limited to three scriptures including John 1:1, John 20:28, and Heb. 1:8. Lets look at those first.

John 1:1 states, “In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In this passage we do not see the name Jesus, Son of God, Son of Man, or any other names used for Christ in the Gospel. What we read is that God's Word is God. The same writer, John the Divine, writes in 1 John 1 that the Word of Life was manifested and we have seen it with our eyes and our hands have handled it. That is the life that was with the Father was manifest unto us. How was the life manifest to us? The word was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, John 1:14. These scriptures show that the life that was manifest to us in the person of Jesus Christ was that eternal life which was with the Father. Neither of them state that Jesus Christ was eternal.

Now the 2nd scripture per your request is John 20:28. This is Thomas stating to the Christ, “My Lord and my God.” Thomas stated that Christ was his Lord and his God. Thomas did not say, “the Lord God”. He was merely recognizing Christ as his personal Lord and his personal God. This scripture alone might make a person think that Christ is God, but when taken in context to the remainder of scripture it cannot because that interpretation contradicts what many other scripture expressly state regarding Christ relationship to the Father. Christ said to Mary he was returning to his God and his Father. John 20:17 Christ is expressly stating that the Father is not only his Father, but his God. This scripture contradicts the trinity teaching that Christ and the Father are co-equal. This truth is abundant in the Gospel of John. There are many more scriptures that give specific insight to Christ relationship with his Father. In John 5:30 Jesus states I can of mine own self do nothing. Christ said in himself he could do nothing, but Christ taught that with God all things are possible. When Christ said he could do nothing in himself he was making it clear that he was not God. If he is not God, he cannot be eternal, or self-existent as the Father. Christ said that he lived by the Father, he was dependent on the Father. One
that is dependent on another cannot be God because God is fully self-existent and self-sufficient in himself. There are so many scriptures that bring out these truths that any believer could find with ease. Read the Gospel of John. The Father gave the spirit not by measure to the Son. The Father giveth the Son all things. Its always the Father giving to the Son. Why? Because Christ is completely dependent on the Father. If Christ had to receive all that he had from the Father then he must not of had all things prior, otherwise it would have been pointless to give all things to him. Christ authority was from the Father. Becoming our Savior, Christ said was not his will but the Father's will. Paul the Apostle states in Corinthians that God is the head of Christ. No such statements are ever made with respect to the Father having a Father. He that has a head cannot be God. Again, this contradicts the trinity teaching because it states that the Father and the Son are equal and co-existent eternally. The Father is clearly his God, not just his Father. It was the Father that gave Christ the power to create all things. Later we see that Christ uses his relationship with his Father to teach his own relationship with his disciples.

Hebrews 1:8 says “But unto the Son he saith, thy throne oh God…” Here, the Father says to his Son, thy throne oh God. The key is the Father is speaking to his Son. Christ exaltation came from his Father. Hebrews says he glorified not himself to become our high priest. It was God that glorified Christ.

All of the names given to Christ were just that-they were given to him because as Christ said he pleased the Father in all things. Christ even said that he was under commandment from the Father. He that is under the command of another cannot be God. Paul states that Christ was “made” a high priest after the order of Melchizedek, not having father or mother, without beginning of days or end of life. This is very insightful to understanding God's work in Christ. The Father has given all things to the Son. He has even granted to Christ his eternality in representing us before him. The scripture says the Lord swore and will not repent thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. When did God state this? We don't know. We just know that he decreed it at some specific point in time before the foundation of the world. If Christ was already our high priest this would have been completely unnecessary. Like Paul said if the first covenant was good there would not have been the necessity of a change to a new covenant. Christ was granted Lordship over heaven and earth because he pleased the Father in all things. (Hebrews teaches about being treated as the sons of God if we endure chastening.) In Revelation we see the God personified in the person of Christ including the name the Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, the Word of God. How did he get those names? He said I have been given all things from my Father. Also, in Isaiah 9:6 we see God declaring what names he would be given. Revelation says he has a certain name that no one knows.

Finally, Christ said he was with the Father before the foundation of the world. When exactly? We don't know. But that does not make Christ eternal. Remember, Christ said to the Pharisees and Scribes that ye are of your father the devil who was a liar from the “Beginning” That statement certainly does not teach that the Devil is eternal, only that he was with the Father from the Beginning. We have little or no information from scripture on what occurred before the foundation of the world, but we do know that Christ was there with his Father because he stated so in John 17, but he did not say he was eternally with his Father. He was with the Father, but he was not God. Christ said he received all things from his Father and his God and he will always be subject to his father even in the world to come. I Cor. 15:28.

July 10, 2007 at 9:30 pm#59125

NickHassan

Participant

Hi CB,
Where would you be without greek logic?
You say
“2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = The God of Israel”

Of course the Spirit of God is of God.
That is how God manifests here on earth.
The Spirit spoke through Christ and the prophets.

July 11, 2007 at 5:24 am#59178

kejonn

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 11 2007,00:43)

Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

In what way was Yeshua equal with God? The first phrase said he was in the form of God, could it be that he was giving up this form to take on the form of Man? And how can one be equal to God if he is supposed to be God? Does that make sense to you? So whatever this equality was, this verse rules out that Yeshua was God because it should say “Who, being God, thought it not robbery to be God”.

Quote

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Vain repetition.

Quote

MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Hey, whatever happened to that name? Yeshua != Emmanuel. Beyond that, did you know that the name Jehu means “He is God”. You can find Jehu in 1 Kings 16. Are you sure we don't have 4 Gods now? Make room for Jehu!

Quote

The Word become Yeshua is eternal. And?

Quote

“His name shall be called”. Nice. When did it happen? don't see it anywhere in the NT. Names in Hebrew have significance, but in the end, his name was Yeshua.

Quote

Sweet, thanks for the reference. Yet another verse that helps me with figuring out the Word as the revealer of God. BTW, manifest: “To show or demonstrate plainly”. It did indeed say that Yeshua was the image of the invisible God. None of these say he is God, just say he reveals God to people. Just as he did as the Word before his birth.

Quote

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This one is odd. It is a direct quote from Psalm 45, but I'd like you to refer back to Psalm 45:2 to see that Psalm 45 was written to an earthly king. If you doubt that, 45:16 will really throw you for a loop.

Psalm 45:2 – You are the most excellent of men and your lips have been anointed with grace, since God has blessed you forever.
Psalm 45:16 – Your sons will take the place of your fathers; you will make them princes throughout the land.

And it is just “theos” in this verse, not “ho theos”.

So if the writer of Psalm 45 can call an earthly king “O God” with the big ol' “G”, I guess it can be used for Yeshua too.

Quote

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

See my recent posts involving Logos in the Trinity thread.

Quote

COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Godhead is not the best word unless you care to be a Mormon. Deity works. But what else would you expect of the Son of God? We can also be filled with the fullness of God (Eph 3:19), what does that make us?

Quote

Compare
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With (John the baptist announcing Jesus)
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Matthew pulled his quote from the Septuagint, which uses “kurio” instead of the Hebrew word from the Masoretic, “Yhovah”. In Matthew 3:3 it then becomes “kurios” which is translated correctly to English, but confuses people because they are used to seeing “Lord” in the NT attributed to Yeshua. There is no Greek word for YHWH or Yhovah. Thus both verses should be LORD to signify YHWH. The way of YHWH is the salvation of man through His Son Yeshua.

Quote

Uh, you do know that “Christ” was not his name? Basically it was Jesus Messiah. Christ means Messiah.

Besides that, your comparison is silly. I guess you are right, there is no other rock just like our God, so you are saying Christ is a different rock? It does not say there is no other at all, just none like our God.

–Nice try, have a good day

July 11, 2007 at 5:44 am#59183

kejonn

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 11 2007,00:55)

Haha, you've solved the true mystery of the reason the Trinity doctrine was developed! “Holy, Holy, Holy” would never work for a single God, now would it :laugh: .

Quote

There are Three separate Beings, each God and equal with one another. Though they hold different offices, they are nevertherless each God.

Everyone has their own definition of Trinity. Which offices do they hold, President or Prime Minister :laugh: ?

Besides, you're definition of Trinity is blatantly polytheistic. Please check with the other Trinitarians so they can help move you towards making your Trinity sound more monotheistic.

Quote

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Shame the disciples then went and disobeyed him. Heretics.

Quote

Isaiah 6:3 says, “And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

” Did you catch that? That's one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!

When Yeshua said “verily, verily” to Nathanael in John 1:51 was he talking to Nathanael's two personalities?

Quote

Interesting. Since the Trinity is not in the Bible, was not taught by Yeshua or Paul, can we safely assume that the doctrine of Trinity might just be the lie in 2:11?

July 12, 2007 at 12:50 pm#59316

Cult Buster

Participant

kejonn. You reason like Jehovah's Witness. You cannot accept plain Biblical teaching without putting the “twist” on everything.

Instead of studying the Bible to know what is truth, you misuse the Bible to fight against the truth. Instead of a straight answer you play word games with scripture. If you truly believe that the Bible is the Word of God, then approach it with awe and reverence, not like playing a game of chess.

Have another look. This time with your eyes open.

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Compare
MATTHEW 13:13-15 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (15) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and {their} ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with {their} eyes, and hear with {their} ears, and should understand with {their} heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
With
ISAIAH 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. (10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

JOHN 10:30-33 I and {my} Father are one. (31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

JOHN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew {it} unto you.

Compare
JEREMIAH 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation.
With
MATTHEW 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, {thou} that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under {her} wings, and ye would not! (38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
JOHN 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
Compare

JOHN 12:37-38 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: (38) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
JOHN 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
With
ISAIAH 6:1-5 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. (2) Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. (3) And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, {is} the Lord of hosts: the whole earth {is} full of his glory. (4) And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. (5) Then said I, Woe {is} me! for I am undone; because I {am} a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.<<<

ROMANS 9:5 Whose {are} the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ {came}, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. {RSV, NIV: “Christ, who is God over all”}

PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Compare
Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre
With
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

2 PETER 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: {RSV, NIV: “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”}

Compare
Psa 102:24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
With
HEBREWS 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: {God the Father calls the Son “Lord.”

REVELATION 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Arche (“Beginning”) The Greek for “beginning” is arche, from which we get our word “architect.” Its literal meaning, according to Greek scholars, is “origin, active cause, source, uncreated principle.” So the above verse is describing Jesus as the “architect,” or Creator of the Universe. In Rev 21:6 “arche” is applied to the Father, so it can't possibly mean “created being,” as Jehovah's Witnesses and other heretics maintain.

Compare
Psa 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
With
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

REVELATION 5:8 . . . the four beasts and four {and} twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Compare
REVELATION 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

With
Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Compare
1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:

With
MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye e
vil in your hearts?

MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .

Compare
JEREMIAH 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
With
MATTHEW 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Compare
DANIEL 9:9 To the Lord our God {belong} mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
LUKE 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
With
LUKE 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
MARK 2:5-10 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this {man} thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

ACTS 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon {God}, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;

(The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.)
Blasphemy can only be committed against God.

Compare
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Compare
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

With
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God)

Jehovah said: “…and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced” (Zec. 12:10). The preceding verses (1, 4, 7, 8) identify Jehovah as the one speaking. Christ is the one who was pierced, and John 19:37 clearly tells us that this prophecy was fulfilled in His crucifixion.

*EZEKIEL 34:11-12,15,22,31 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, {even} I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. (12) As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep {that are} scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day . . . (15) I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God . . . (22) Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle . . . (31) And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, {are} men, {and} I {am} your God, saith the Lord God. {cf. Ps 23:1, 80:1, 100:3, Is 40:11, Jer 23:1, 31:10}

+JOHN 10:7,11,14-16,26-29 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep . . . (11) I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep . . . (14) I am the good shepherd, and know my {sheep}, and am known of mine. (15) As the Father knoweth me, even so I know the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. (16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, {and} one shepherd . . . (26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any {man} pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave {them} me, is greater than all; and no {man} is able to pluck {them} out of my Father's hand. {cf. Ezek 34:23, Mic 5:4, Zech 13:7 w/Mt 26:31, Heb 13:20, 1 Pet 5:4, Rev 7:17}

*ISAIAH 40:8 . . . the word of our God shall stand for ever.

+MATTHEW 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

*PSALM 148:1-2 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights. (2) Praise ye him, all his angels : praise ye him, all his hosts.

+HEBREWS 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

*ISAIAH 62:5 For {as} a young man marrieth a virgin, {so} shall thy sons marry thee: and {as} the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, {so} shall thy God rejoice over thee. {cf. Is 54:5-6, Hos 2:16-20}

+REVELATION 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. {cf. Mt 24:44, 25:1,6,13, Jn 3:29, Rev 21:9}

*DEUTERONOMY 10:17 For the Lord your God {is} God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, . . . {cf. Ps 136:2-3, 1 Tim 6:15}

+REVELATION 17:14 . . . the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .{cf. Rev 19:16}

*ISAIAH 48:17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; . . . {cf. 10:20, 43:3, 1 Sam 2:2, Ps 89:18}

+ACTS 3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; . . . (14) But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, . . . {cf. Acts 2:27 w/ Ps 16:10, Is 49:7}

*REVELATION 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither lig
ht of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: . . . {cf. Is 60:19}

+REVELATION 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb {is} the light thereof.

*DEUTERONOMY 32:39 . . . neither {is there any} that can deliver out of my hand. {cf. Jn 10:29}

+JOHN 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any {man} pluck them out of my hand.

*PROVERBS 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son {in whom} he delighteth.

+REVELATION 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

*PSALM 62:12 . . . unto thee, O Lord, {belongeth} mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work. {cf. Is 40:10}

+MATTHEW 16:27 For the Son of man shall . . . reward every man according to his works.

+REVELATION 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward {is} with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

*EZEKIEL 34:17 . . . Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

+MATTHEW 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth {his} sheep from the goats:

*GALATIANS 1:4-5 . . . according to the will of God and our Father: (5) To whom {be} glory for ever and ever. Amen.

+2 PETER 3:18 . . . our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him {be} glory both now and for ever. Amen. {cf. Heb 13:21}

*JOHN 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and {of} the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. {cf. Mt 21;31, Lk 7:28, Acts 1:3, Rom 14:17, 1 Cor 4:20, 15:50, Col 4:11, Rev 12:10}

+COLOSSIANS 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated {us} into the kingdom of his dear Son: {cf. Jn 18:36, Eph 5:5, 2 Tim 4:1, Heb 1:8, 2 Pet 1:1}

*ROMANS 7:22 . . . the law of God . . . {cf. Ps 19:7}

+GALATIANS 6:2 . . . fulfil the law of Christ.

*ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of God . . .

+ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of Christ, .. .

*PSALM 71:5 For thou {art} my hope, O Lord God: . . .

+1 TIMOTHY 1:1 . . . Lord Jesus Christ, {which is} our hope;

*TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

+ACTS 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

*REVELATION 22:6 . . . the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel . . .

+REVELATION 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches . . .

*ROMANS 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called {to be} an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, {cf. Mk 1:14, Rom 15:16, 1 Thess 2:2,8-9, 1 Pet 4:17}

+ROMANS 15:19 . . . I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. {cf. Rom 1:16, 1 Cor 9:12, 2 Cor 2:12, 1 Thess 3:2}

*1 CORINTHIANS 15:9 . . . I persecuted the church of God. {cf. 1 Cor 11:22, Gal 1:13}

+MATTHEW 16:18 . . . thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; . . .

+ROMANS 16:16 . . . The churches of Christ salute you.

*TITUS 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, . . . {cf. Rom 12:11, Lk 4:8- “. . . him only shalt thou serve”}

+ROMANS 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, . . . {cf. Eph 6:6, Col 3:24; servants of both: Jas 1:1, Rev 7:3, 11:18, 19:5}

*ISAIAH 43:3 For I {am} the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: . . .

2) *ISAIAH 43:11 I, {even} I, {am} the Lord; and beside me {there is} no saviour.

3) *ISAIAH 49:26 . . . I the Lord {am} thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

4) *HOSEA 13:4 Yet I {am} the Lord thy God . . . {there is} no saviour beside me. {cf. Ps 106:21, Is 45:21-22, 60:16, 63:8}

5) *LUKE 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

6) *1 TIMOTHY 4:10 . . . the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. {cf. 1 Tim 1:1, 2:3, 2 Tim 1:9, Titus 1:3, 2:10, 3:4, Jude 1:25}

1) #ISAIAH 49:5-6 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb {to be} his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, . . . (6) And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

+LUKE 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
4) +ACTS 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand {to be} a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

5) +TITUS 2:13 . . . great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

6) +2 PETER 1:1 . . . God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

7) +1 JOHN 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son {to be} the Saviour of the world.

*ISAIAH 45:23 . . . unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. {cf. 66:23}
2) +PHILIPPIANS 2:9-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of {things} in heaven, and {things} in earth, and {things} under the earth; (11) And {that} every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ {is} Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

*ISAIAH 35:4 . . . behold, your God will come {with} vengeance, {even} God {with} a recompence; he will come and save you.

2) *ISAIAH 40:5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see {it} together: . . .

3) *ISAIAH 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong {hand}, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward {is} with him, and his work before him.
7) *JOEL 2:10-11 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: (11) And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp {is} very great: for {he is} strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord {is} great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
5) +2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-8 . . . the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

6) +REVELATION 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they {also} which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. {cf. Zech 12:10}
8) +REVELATION 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward {is} with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

*PSALM 50:6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is {judge} himself. Selah.

*PSALM 96:13 Before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

3) *ECCLESIASTES 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether {it be} good or whether {it be} evil.
1) +JOHN 5:22,27 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son . . . (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

2) +JOHN 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

3) +ACTS 10:42 . . . it is he which was ordained of God {to be} the Judge of quick and dead.

4) +2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge {thee} therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
5) +REVELATION 6:16-17 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wra
th of the Lamb: (17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
) +REVELATION 19:11,15 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him {was} called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war . . . (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

*PSALM 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he {is} the King of glory. Selah
8) +REVELATION 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .

Compare
Psa 102:24 I said, O my God, do not take me up in the half of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations.
Psa 102:25 Before time You founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Psa 102:26 They shall perish, but You shall endure; yea, all of them shall wear out like a garment; You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed.
Psa 102:27 But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended.

With
Heb 1:8 but as to the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom;
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beside Your fellows.” Psa. 45:6, 7
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, at the beginning founded the earth, and the heavens are works of Your hands.
Heb 1:11 They will vanish away, but You will continue; and they will all become old, like a garment,
Heb 1:12 and You shall fold them up like a covering, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail.

Compare
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

With
Joh 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Joh 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Compare
Psa 7:8 The LORD (Jehovah) shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
Psa 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

1Ki 8:39 Then hear thou (Jehovah) in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)

With
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I (Jesus) am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD (Jehovah) with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Compare
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (Jehovah) shall be delivered:
With
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

July 12, 2007 at 1:02 pm#59317

Cult Buster

Participant

The Holy Spirit is God

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Mathew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (Blasphemy can only be committed against God)

1 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord (God) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit (only God hath immortality) offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (authority) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

July 12, 2007 at 7:11 pm#59368

NickHassan

Participant

Hi CB,
You really should approach scripture with awe and reverence.
And not search like a scientist determined to prove something that is not written

July 12, 2007 at 10:17 pm#59390

kejonn

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 13 2007,00:50)

kejonn. You reason like Jehovah's Witness. You cannot accept plain Biblical teaching without putting the “twist” on everything.

And you say that Trinity teaching is not putting a twist on Biblical teaching? Because if not, I'd like for one person to show me where Yeshua taught the Trinity. If the one who the Gospel is about did not teach it, why should any accept it as valid? You would think Yeshua would teach something that is “foundational” to the faith named after him, Christianity.

Quote

The Trinity was formulated by men because the risen Christ presented a new problem to them. To rise and then ascend to heaven, must one be Divine. But polytheism is a “no-no” so they had to come up with an explanation that would make the one God the Jews had known for 4000 years into three Gods that were really one. That way, Christianity was a monotheistic religion, therefore “superior” to all of the pagan polytheistic religions. Only the truly gullible can swallow such fallaciousness.

Quote

Have another look. This time with your eyes open.

My eyes had been closed for 20 years. They have been opened for the first time just recently. I removed the man-made glasses that distorted the scriptural evidence before me.

Quote

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Too many have already pointed out the potential for this verse to be read in several different manners. Ignoring all of those because it becomes contentious, please tell me why every single one of Paul's letters, including Titus, plainly differentiate the Father from the Son? If this verse says what you want it to say, why did Paul not drive that point home as often as possible? He had the opportunity in every letter he wrote, yet we must rely on this one verse for our “truth”? Let's see, 13 letters opened up with the distinct separation, one verse that seemingly does not have it. The odds are poor that we have the correct wording of this verse then.

In fact, if you are supposing that Paul is saying Jesus is God, what will you do with this verse, also Paul's

Colossians 1:3 – We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you

Here Paul is saying God is the Father. He is not saying God the Father so that we can say that the Son is also God, but he is saying that God is the Father. No manner of Trinity hoola-hoops can make that verse say anything else.

By the way, here is the KJV translations of Titus 2:13

KJV – Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Already, we see that there can be another translation. Are you willing to base you theology on a questionable verse?

Quote

Why are these listed? The first verses out of Matthew tell why Yeshua spoke in parables, and the verses in Isaiah are God's directions to Isaiah himself. If anything, you are comparing Yeshua to Isaiah, not Yeshua to God. Which makes perfect sense because they both came to the people to bring them messages from God. Please understand the context. “Go, and tell this people” and then comes the words Isaiah was to say.

Quote

This merely says why the Jews wanted to kill him: because they felt he was making himself equal with the Father. There is no admission that Yeshua was claiming this for himself. In fact, this verse is funny because it shows that both you and the Jews were wrong . Hey, you're thinking like a Pharisee now!

Quote

Again, you stopped short and left off the verses that bring this whole narrative into context. He went on to remind them that God's representatives were called gods as well. By bringing this example up, he compared himself with those OT testament men of God. The following verses set the record straight, both for the Jews and you

John 10:25-26 – “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

I've not noticed it until these last two scripture quotes you gave, but I'm beginning to realize that Trinitarians had much in common to the Pharisees: they both think Yeshua is claiming to be equal with God. There's a hard lesson in this, I think.

Here's the lesson: the Pharisees, many of whom were spiritually bl
ind, and Trinitarians, both think that Yeshua was saying he was God. That is an interesting revelation and one that should make you hesitate.

Quote

JOHN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew {it} unto you.

Inheritance will do that for you. And this proves what?

Quote

Alright, some new verses I have not seen! The same old ones were getting to easy to refute.

OK, the Jeremiah verses: given to Jeremiah to speak to Jerusalem. Since they were already given to Jeremiah, it would be quite easy for Yeshua to repeat them when appropriate. What does this prove, that both Jeremiah and Yeshua were prophets of God? No doubt.

Reminder for ya

John 12:49 – “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

Hope that wasn't new information for you.

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MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Guess I need to bring Jehu back up. Jehu means “He is God”. Read about Jehu in 1&2 Kings. BTW, what happened to the name Emmanuel? Yeshua != Emmanuel.

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JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
JOHN 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

How many times will these verses be used? Check out my various posts about “the Word”.

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Compare
JOHN 12:37-38 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: (38) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
JOHN 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
With
ISAIAH 6:1-5 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. (2) Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. (3) And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, {is} the Lord of hosts: the whole earth {is} full of his glory. (4) And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. (5) Then said I, Woe {is} me! for I am undone; because I {am} a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.<<<

I've compared, contrasted, and see no worthwhile similarities. Please expound.

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ROMANS 9:5 Whose {are} the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ {came}, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. {RSV, NIV: “Christ, who is God over all”}

Another “I believe Yeshua is God so I'm going to quote scripture from Bible versions that make him out to be God” verse. That verse has so many different renderings that it cannot be strong. Again, you need to find good strong verses that support your theolgy, say 1 Cor 8:6.

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PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

“Being in the form of God” is the key for the whole context. Yeshua was equal in form, that is spirit. The next verse shows that he took on human form, and that is how he became unequal with God in the form of spirit. Its all about context.

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COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Look up what Godhead means sometime. It can mean anythingfrom what Trinitarians think it is to the whole host of heaven, including God. Many other verses use “Deity” instead. All this verse says is that the Holy Spirit of God filled him completely, which makes perfect sense know that he did not have a sinful nature that struggled with the Spirit. Furthermore, God anointed him at his baptism to carry out His mission on earth. If Paul was trying to say he was “God in the flesh” he would have said “For he is God in human form”. Nope, didn't say that. You do know other verses say we too can be filled with the fullness of God right (John 1:16, Ephesians 3:19)?

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–sigh– I keep showing where these verses are not good indicators of Yeshau being God and you summarily ignore them without refute. Talk about turning a blind eye.

Manifest – “To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal”. Now if the verse had said “God came in the flesh” then we'd have something to raise our eyebrows about.

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Been there, done that, you ignored. Psalm 45 was written about an earthly king. The Hebrews verse is a quote from that Psalm. You are comparing Yeshua to an earthly King. Well, he is King of kings after all.

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“Yeshua is God!”…if you use the right Bible version.

Phew, you posted a bunch of verses this time around! Let me go through the rest and see what you HAVEN'T used before.

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Whoah, that's news. After all, God appointed Yeshua to be our Lord and Savior through his authority. As the Word, Yeshua also was the instrument of creation, so that's a no-brainer.

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Since I don't think Yeshua is created I won't touch this one. I will say that anything that has to do with creation involves both God as source and pre-birth Yeshua as intrument.

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Both Yeshua and God are eternal. Very few debate that.

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JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

Quote the rest of the verse please: “He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him”. The Son was sent to do the Father's Will. To dishonor the Son would be to dishonor the Father.

You do the very same thing people accuse JWs of doing: quoting only the part of a verse that supports their view.

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JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

See my other posts on this. No falling down and worshiping. Would you not say that Thomas was being disrespectful by not falling on his face in the presence of God? Abraham did (Gen 17:3), why not Thomas? Why did the other Apostles not call him “My God”?

SNIP of verses I've already covered.

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Last time I will help you read this verse properly. The winepress was God's, Yeshua was the one treading it and trampling the “bad grapes”.

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Compare
1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:

With
MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .

The LORD searches ALL hearts and understands ALL the imaginations of their thoughts. No such claim by Yeshua.

You didn't list Matthew 9:3 where it speaks of the scribes saying “This fellow [Yeshua] blashphemes”. Yeshua knew their type and their statement told them all he needed to know.

The verse from Rev 2:23 is pretty good. Can't say I have an explanation for this one, but we DO know that Yeshua inherited much from his Father. Still, it does not definitively show that Yeshua is God. It just shows that he can do some things that his Father is able to do.

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You do come up with some odd comparisons to prove this Trinity thing. I think I see how you are trying to connect the two quotes, but it is very, very weak. Mat 18:20 says nothing of hiding, nothing of Yeshua filling heaven and earth.

Besides, what makes us one with the rest of the body of Christ, and one with Christ? The indwelling Holy Spirit. “Gathered in my name”.

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These are some of the easier ones. Compare

Matthew 9:6 – “But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”–then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.”
John 20:23 – “If you [the Apostles] forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

As the Father passed on the authority to forgiv
e sins to His Son, so did Yeshua to his Apostles. Or are the Apostles God too?

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ACTS 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon {God}, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

John 14:6 – Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

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(The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.)
Blasphemy can only be committed against God.

You sure?

Mat 12:31 – “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Seems Yeshua said there are many means of blasphemy, but only one that would not be forgiven.

SNIPPED more verses I've already addressed in your previous

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Compare
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

With
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

That's because the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Sabbath of the LORD != Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is still YHWH's.

SNIPPED more verses I have answered and you have not refuted the answer.

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Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Hmmm, good point. I guess this means that Yeshua did keep his earthly body when he ascended. But the LORD (YHWH) never changes. Since Yeshua was not human before he came to earth, one must therefore assume that Yesterday= day of birth (Son of God, Son of Man), today = now, and forever = from now on till the end of eternity.

SNIPPED more verses I've addressed.

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Why didn't you quote the rest of the verse? There are some translation problems with this verse, and the English makes it clear. It goes from “Me” to “Him” with no good transition. Some Bible versions have “look upon me” (many), some have “look upon him” (RSV, NLV), “look on the one whom” (NRSV). Does the wording “they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him” make sense to you? From “Me” to “Him” with no transition. Who will they mourn for? Why? Again, you shouldn't use qestionable verse to base your theology on. I personally like 1 Cor. 8:6.

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Hehe, you missed your own refutation in the quote you gave. “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.” The Father gave then to Yeshua, they were not his to take without this.

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*ISAIAH 40:8 . . . the word of our God shall stand for ever.

+MATTHEW 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

John 12:49 – “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

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*PSALM 148:1-2 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights. (2) Praise ye him, all his angels : praise ye him, all his hosts.

+HEBREWS 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

And? God is telling the angels to worship Yeshua? God told them, who are they to argue?

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+REVELATION 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. {cf. Mt 24:44, 25:1,6,13, Jn 3:29, Rev 21:9}

Am I missing something here? Isaiah is
addressing Jerusalem, the bride of Christ is the Church.

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*DEUTERONOMY 10:17 For the Lord your God {is} God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, . . . {cf. Ps 136:2-3, 1 Tim 6:15}

+REVELATION 17:14 . . . the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .{cf. Rev 19:16}

What, no God of gods? Can't imagine why the Father wouldn't want to pass on that authority to Yeshua. Oh wait, I know…

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*ISAIAH 48:17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; . . . {cf. 10:20, 43:3, 1 Sam 2:2, Ps 89:18}

What, Yeshua can't be called Holy? Is he unholy then? Aaron was called “holy one” in Ps 106:16, Daniel 4:13 calls an angelic watcher a “holy one”. And your reference to Ps 16:10 is correct; it says “Your Holy One”, which is to say the “Holy One” who belongs to YHWH.

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*REVELATION 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: . . . {cf. Is 60:19}

+REVELATION 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb {is} the light thereof.

Even Rev 21:23 says it: Yeshua is the lamp and God's glory is the source. Can't light a lamp without a power source!

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*DEUTERONOMY 32:39 . . . neither {is there any} that can deliver out of my hand. {cf. Jn 10:29}

+JOHN 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any {man} pluck them out of my hand.

Hey, you already tried these above. You're starting to get redundant. The Father gave them to Yeshua.

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*PROVERBS 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son {in whom} he delighteth.

+REVELATION 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

What, can't Yeshua love those who were given to him to save? Did Yeshua not learn from his Father? Does the Bible not tell us to correct others when they are wrong (2 Tim 2:25)?

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*PSALM 62:12 . . . unto thee, O Lord, {belongeth} mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work. {cf. Is 40:10}

+MATTHEW 16:27 For the Son of man shall . . . reward every man according to his works.

+REVELATION 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward {is} with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Ah, cutting out part of verses to fit you theology again, I see. The Watchtower Society needs such as you.

Matthew 16:27 – “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

Sounds like a man on a mission from the Father to me, bro.

Rev 22:12 is the message of the “God of the spirits of the prophets”. Refer back to 12:6 for context.

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*EZEKIEL 34:17 . . . Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

+MATTHEW 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth {his} sheep from the goats:

Man, you keep forgetting about the authority given to Yeshua by his Father. He WILL be sitting at the right hand of his Father, ya know.

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*GALATIANS 1:4-5 . . . according to the will of God and our Father: (5) To whom {be} glory for ever and ever. Amen.

+2 PETER 3:18 . . . our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him {be} glory both now and for ever. Amen. {cf. Heb 13:21}

Do you write tracts? This “dot dot dot” stuff works for the JWs too. Both of these verses apply to Yeshua, look it up all others who are reading this. Even if it didn't, will Yeshua not have any glory? He is God's Son ya know. Poor Son, go sit in the corner.

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+COLOSSIANS 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated {us} into the kingdom of his dear Son: {cf. Jn 18:36, Eph 5:5, 2 Tim 4:1, Heb 1:8, 2 Pet 1:1}

Huh? I'm beginning to think you are just throwing verses out now because my eyes are starting to blur. Since God is on His throne, and Yeshua will share his thrown, and we will inherit Yeshua's throne, is it not both God and Yeshua's kingdom? He is God's Son after all. This isn't a democracy, we don't get to vote in a new ruler.

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*ROMANS 7:22 . . . the law of God . . . {cf. Ps 19:7}

+GALATIANS 6:2 . . . fulfil the law of Christ.

The law of Christ is the law of God. Yeshua is not taking over here.

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*ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of God . . .

+ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of Christ, .. .

Christ does have a spirit and so does God. Your point? If you don't have the Spirit of Christ, you surely don't have the Spirit of God.

John 14:20 – “In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

I will save the rest for later (maybe). Please though, pay heed to context. You are missing the mark on several of the above because you haven't studied contextually.

July 13, 2007 at 6:09 pm#59514

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Kejonn

You say…

Quote

My eyes had been closed for 20 years. They have been opened for the first time just recently. I removed the man-made glasses that distorted the scriptural evidence before me.

Its really hard for me to understand how that a born again, spirit filled, child of God could walk with Jesus for 20 years and be in darkness or as you say have man made glasses on that distorted the truth!

Did not Jesus say…

Jn 10:
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jesus also promised…

Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Hundreds possibly thousands of Christians are being saved everyday and most are being saved through Trinitarian churches.

What I see in this is first of all, if the Trinitarian teaching was of the harlot and these millions of believers are in darkness then God would not bless them and bring thousands to him through these fallacious teachings! Many believe that the trinity is a curse!

Secondly, the claim that the majority of Gods children are saved in babylon and then “called out” to follow “another Jesus” that they have not recieved is ludicrous!

I have been following Jesus for 33 years and have not forgotten the one I first recieved!

When the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of God came into my life it totally revolutionized my life. The change was so radical, some of my own family thought I had brain damage. (which I am sure some on this sight feel I still do. )

What they didnt understand is I had a new brain, the mind of God, oh, I mean the mind of Christ!

I called out to Jesus when I got saved and without the help of men found myself praising and worshipping him and thanking him for my salvation!

Shortly after I begin to understand the relationship Jesus had with the Father and the Spirit!

When one gets saved are they not to call out to God, is it not God that we are to be restored to. Who is it that we call out to? Its Jesus.

If you have the Son you have the Father and yes you have the “One Spirit” that we recieved!

We should honour the Son as the Father, and since the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, then that is a given.

To not honour the Spirit is to not honour God as we see what happened to Aninias and Saphira.

So am I to accept in my opinion “Another Jesus” or “Another Spirit” that I have not recieved because some man comes along and says Thomas is wrong and Jesus is not my Lord and God?

2 Cor 11:4
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

I think not! I know in whom I have believed!

Paul speaks of the Gospel of Christ which he also calls the Gospel of God…

Gal 1:
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul later in the chapter says…

Gal 1:
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his *Son in me*, that I might preach *him* among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Then Paul makes the following statement in verse 24.

Gal 1:24
And they glorified *God in me*

Did Paul just say “By his grace God was to reveal his Son in him”?

My point is that when I recieved Jesus, I recieved God!

My question for you Kejonn is.. “When you decided the Trinity was not true, did it change your life like when you got saved”?

Do you find now that you are not Trinitarian that you bear more fruit in your life?

I am not trying to pry. Niether am I doubting your salvation.

Just honest questions.

July 13, 2007 at 6:18 pm#59516

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Kejonn

You say…

Quote

That way, Christianity was a monotheistic religion, therefore “superior” to all of the pagan polytheistic religions. Only the truly gullible can swallow such fallaciousness.

Isnt Monotheistic Christianity “superior” to all of the pagan “Polytheistic” religions?

July 13, 2007 at 6:51 pm#59517

Mr. Steve

Participant

Cult Buster; You should apply the same advice that you give to Kejonn to your belief in the trinity. I'd like to pose a question to you and anyone else interested in replying. When the scripture says “In the beginning… John 1:1, When was the beginning to which John referred? Was it the same as Gen. 1:1? Was it at the start of the current age? Is God telling us in John 1:1 that we should not attempt to articulate doctrine before this time? If God wants us to limit our doctrine to the Word revealed to us, are we presumptous in stating doctrine based on what we believe must have been before the start of this current age? If Christ taught us that he was with the Father before the foundation of the world, did he intend us to deem Christ eternal. Hence, the eternal sonship doctrine. If eternal Sonship only means that Christ was the Son of God and with the Father before the world began, how might this affect our doctrinal stance for or against the trinity? It is absolutely certain that the scriptures indicate that the Son has been with the Father before creation. When Christ prayed to the Father and said he was with the Father before the world began, was he substantiating eternal sonship? Christ used the word eternal, but not when he referred to his relationship with the Father. Most trinitarians would draw the conclusion of eternality from the phrase, before the world was, but before the world was means before the world was it does not mean eternal, which is in harmony with the rest of scripture. I'm interested in your feedback.

July 14, 2007 at 1:14 pm#59670

kejonn

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 14 2007,06:09)

Kejonn

You say…

Quote

My eyes had been closed for 20 years. They have been opened for the first time just recently. I removed the man-made glasses that distorted the scriptural evidence before me.

WJ,

Even here, we must pay heed to context. I made this statement in relation to the Trinity doctrine, not other aspects of my beliefs.

In other posts, I have mentioned that the first time I ever heard about the Trinity, I thought its was strange. I heard it presented in many different ways. I heard people say “Jesus is God” and then sermons that spoke of Yeshua prayed to God. These were weird to me but since I was still on the milk in those days, I just figured that people who had been Christians longer than me knew what they were talking about.

After years of hearing such stuff, it became just another side item. Its akin to watching too much bad news and then not even thinking twice when we see that someone has been killed. We get “used to it”.

But sometime back, while studying about the events of Yeshua's “kangaroo court” trial and death, I started seeing new things in scripture I had never noticed. It gave me a hunger for new revelation, and this path has led me to heavily refute the Trinity doctrine. I know it looks like I am now totally convinced against it, but not 100%. I think there is still part of me that wants to believe in it because so many others do.

But the sad thing is, while so many say they believe in it, 95% of those who do don't have a clue what it means. They are like I was, just accepting it. I was given a book called The Forgotten Trinity and the title says it all. Most younger Christians today don't even have a clue what it is if they've even heard it at all!

When was the last time someone taught Trinity in a sermon or lesson? When was the last time you heard someone even allude to it in a gospel presentation? If this is so foundational, why are so many people ignorant of the foundation?

So that is what I mean by my eyes being opened.

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Did not Jesus say…

Yes he said it. What does this have to do with believing the Trinity? We follow Christ but that doesn't mean we have all truthes. Do you? If you think you do, maybe you need to check up. I thought I knew all there was to know too, or at least all that was necessary.

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Jesus also promised…

Let this verse speak to you. It says “guide you into all truth”. It doesn't say kicking and screaming. If everyone has the truth then why are we even disagreeing? This guidance is a progressive process, just as we are being molding day by day.

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Hundreds possibly thousands of Christians are being saved everyday and most are being saved through Trinitarian churches.

Yes, but how many are being saved under a Trinity message? I would say 1% at best. The gospel message was given by Yeshua and Paul did not contain the Trinity, and almost all who present the gospel use the words as written in the Bible. Many use “The Roman Road” and none of the verse contained in this method speak of anything Trinitarian. The focus is predominantly on Yeshua's redemptive death, his burial and resurrection, the need for repentance, and then acceptance of Yeshua as savior and Lord. None of that says Yeshua and God are equal, none of that says the Holy Spirit is another part. I've yet to hear a gospel message that even mentions the Holy Spirit.

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I'm not one who is willing to be so bold. But I do think that it has the potential of blurring the lines of who we should worship, who receives the glory. I have always been a firm believer in doing what I do for the glory of God. When I think of this, I think of the Father, not Yeshua. It always been this way, and I think I have been able to do so because the Holy Spirit in me has always said it is the Father who I am to glorify. Plus, as I said, the Trinity has never been something really thought much about until recently.

But I fear I see less people talking about God, and more people talking about Jesus. Jesus this, Jesus that. Very little about God anymore. Yes, it was Yeshua (and I switch back to Yeshua because I was speaking of others) who came and died for us, but he did it because God so loved he world. He did it to glorify his Father. Yeshua had the proper perspective of who we need to give glory to, and I want to be like Yeshua.

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Secondly, the claim that the majority of Gods children are saved in babylon and then “called out” to follow “another Jesus” that they have not recieved is ludicrous!

If people are truly teaching this, then I disagree with them. As I stated earlier, I have never personally heard a gospel message where Yeshua was said to be equal with God, or even that he was God. So how can the Yeshua that they believed in as Lord and Savior be any different than the non-trinitarian one? All of this comes after that initial faith, the most important faith. It was only after I gave my life to him that I heard people say he was God. It did not make him any more or less my savior. He still died on a cross, he still rose from the tomb. The same regardless of whether he is part of the Trinity or not.

I think that the Trinity does not affect salva
tion if you know what Yeshua did, why he did it, and give your life over to him. But I do think the Trinity may make it harder to focus our worship on the Father. Yeshua never said to worship him, he merely said nothing when others did. As the Son of God, his worship was passed to the Father because Yeshua came to honor Him.

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I have been following Jesus for 33 years and have not forgotten the one I first recieved!

Amen! And I have not either.

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)

We are not of this world brother. The world does not accept us, just as they did not accept Yeshua. If the world starts accepting you, time to do some checking.

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What they didnt understand is I had a new brain, the mind of God, oh, I mean the mind of Christ!

I called out to Jesus when I got saved and without the help of men found myself praising and worshipping him and thanking him for my salvation!

The only thing I would say to this is to not forget to worship the one who sent him. I don't think worship of Yeshua is wrong, but I do think to forget the Father is dangerous. Don't let the Father fade into the background.

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Shortly after I begin to understand the relationship Jesus had with the Father and the Spirit!

When one gets saved are they not to call out to God, is it not God that we are to be restored to. Who is it that we call out to? Its Jesus.

I will have to part ways with you at least slightly on this one. Even when I accepted the Trinity as truth in my life, I never felt I cried out to Yeshua. I cried out to God, and the God I had in my heart and mind was the Father. I can do so through His son. Yeshua has provided me access to the Throne. Yeshua is Lord and Savior but the Father is the source of it all. To serve Yeshua is to serve his Father.

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If you have the Son you have the Father and yes you have the “One Spirit” that we recieved!

We should honour the Son as the Father, and since the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, then that is a given.

To not honour the Spirit is to not honour God as we see what happened to Aninias and Saphira.

So am I to accept in my opinion “Another Jesus” or “Another Spirit” that I have not recieved because some man comes along and says Thomas is wrong and Jesus is not my Lord and God?

Did you even know who Thomas was and what he had said the day you gave you life to Christ? On the day you were saved, did you call Yeshua Lord and Savior or Lord and God? I would wager the former.

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And with the exception of a few unclear verses, the Yeshua Paul preached did not appear to be God. Paul distinctly made the separation of Yeshua and God, the Father very clear. You will see this in the greetings of every single letter he wrote.

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I think not! I know in whom I have believed!

Paul speaks of the Gospel of Christ which he also calls the Gospel of God…

Paul later in the chapter says…

Then Paul makes the following statement in verse 24.

Gal 1:24
And they glorified *God in me*

Did Paul just say “By his grace God was to reveal his Son in him”?

My point is that when I recieved Jesus, I recieved God!

My question for you Kejonn is.. “When you decided the Trinity was not true, did it change your life like when you got saved”?

Nope, my life has been changed but nothing will ever, ever change my life like that day a little over 20 years ago. Nothing else ever will. But that does not mean that change does not affect us.

Quote

Do you find now that you are not Trinitarian that you bear more fruit in your life?

I am not trying to pry. Niether am I doubting your salvation.

Just honest questions.

In a word? Yes. I have more joy now than I have in years. I will not attribute that all to refuting the validity of the Trinity, but rather than God has been showing me many things I never saw before. I still struggle, I still fail. Whether or not I believe in the Trinity does not remove me from trials and tribulations.

During my time of questioning the Trinity, I removed myself from the choir at the church I had been a member of. It was a hard thing. I sing solos as well, and gave that up too. They were both things I loved to do because I felt it was a way I could glorify God. But I felt that I could not sing some of the songs that had words I did not accept. I also felt that until I resolved this in my life that I could not be the proper worship leader that I needed to be. In any case, my time in the congregation horrified me. I saw the choir from another viewpoint, saw them as others in the congregation saw them. And in them, I saw no life. 40 people, maybe 3 that had joy. Even in my struggles I had more joy than I saw in those people. It was a hard revelation. These people have lost their first love.

Did it have anything to do with their believe in the Trinity? I would not think so, I just believe it is complacency. I would wager than most people in the church I used to attend rarely though
t about the Trinity.

The Fogotten Trinity. The title says it all.

July 14, 2007 at 1:38 pm#59672

kejonn

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 14 2007,06:18)

Kejonn

You say…

Quote

That way, Christianity was a monotheistic religion, therefore “superior” to all of the pagan polytheistic religions. Only the truly gullible can swallow such fallaciousness.

Isnt Monotheistic Christianity “superior” to all of the pagan “Polytheistic” religions?

I can understand this. You and I are on different sides of the Trinity belief. Therefore, you interpret something different that what I said. People interpret everything in life with their own filters.

Yes, Christianity is and always will be superior to other religions that serve false gods. These false gods are really demons who wish to pull people away from the true God. The serpent started the trend in the Garden.

But when people came to believe that Yeshua was God, they had a problem on their hands. The Jews believed in one God. The God of Christianity is the God of the Jews, but now there is the Father and the Son. By making Yeshua out to be God they had to come up with some way to reconcile the God of Christianity with the God of Israel. The way they did this was through the Trinity.

Ask any Jew though. the Trinity God is NOT the God of Israel. By making Yeshua God, some early Christians made a new God, one whom the Jews had not known. There were many reasons that the Jews of Yeshua's day did not accept him, but you already know that one of those reasons was because they felt he was making himself out to either be equal with God, or God himself. They knew their God, they did not know a human God.

But even in this, they were wrong. Whenever they asserted this to Yeshua, he showed them they were wrong. Yeshua never claimed to be God, not once. That is why I struggle so much with others who want to make Yeshua into something he himself never claimed.

So you see, some of the early Christians did something that the Jews wanted to kill Yeshua for: they made Yeshua into God. If Yeshua denied it, why do we disagree with him?

The Trinity is supposed to reconcile this, to make 3 Gods into one God. But no matter how you look at it, 3 Gods is polytheism. You can not escape this by calling them 3 persons, 1 God. People will always see them as 3 Gods. More than 1 God is polytheism.

Accept this and be done. Quit calling the Trinity monotheistic.

July 14, 2007 at 1:43 pm#59673

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2007,01:14)

Hi kejonn.

I remember the first time at school when I was taught that we came from monkeys, it seemed truly strange to me. I didn't get that same feeling when I was taught Trinity the first time, just after I became a follower of Christ because like yourself I was on the milk of the word and wasn't in a position to question.

I also trusted Christians wouldn't do me wrong. I was rather naive I think. My background before becoming a Christian was pretty dark at times and I had been an atheist most of my life. I always saw Christians as do gooders and when I became one myself, I naively thought that they would only teach me truth and help me.

It wasn't long before that myth was shattered as you can imagine. It was never my idea, but a conviction in my heart led me to challenge all things, and I am so glad that I listened and obeyed. Otherwise I could have ended up with a form of religion instead of a living relationship with my creator.

There is a difference and at times in my life I have erred into tradition. It was always noticeable when this happened because I always got that “I am bored with my life” feeling and felt like giving up the race and sin started looking attractive.

I think I had a lot of excuses to give up when I was a young Christian from things I witnessed in denominations, but I think perseverance helped me immensely and not confusing the works of men with what God does.

It is exciting to walk down the path to truth. You start to love truth will all your heart after a while. I think our love for truth reflects our love for Christ who is the truth.

Thanks for your post.

You might be interested in the following vision:

https://heavennet.net/visions/escape-from-christendom.htm

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