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- July 4, 2007 at 6:09 am#57987Worshipping JesusParticipant
Quote (942767 @ July 04 2007,16:08) Hi WJ: You say:
Quote Is it entirely possible that the Apostles didnt have a full understanding of God at that time? And so, are you saying that you have greater revelation than the Apostles who Jesus ordained including the Apostle Paul?
Quote 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.The doctrine of “Trinity” is not written, and, therefore, it is not given by the inspiration of God.
God Bless
TimRead my previous post.
I am not saying we have more revelation than Paul.
I am saying that our understanding of the scriptures is purely dependant upon the Holy Spirit revealing their true meaning.
God is revealing to the church more of his truth as time goes on, but the truth that he reveals is found in the scriptures in seed form and will build on what we have.
Unitarianism is not written Tim. There are more supporting scriptures for the Trinitarian view than a Unitarian one!
July 4, 2007 at 6:15 am#57989Worshipping JesusParticipantQuote (Not3in1 @ July 04 2007,15:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2007,05:46) The oldest Gospel that we have is the Gospel of John. John wrote his Gospel between 90-100 AD, but the book of Rev was written around 68 or 69 BC. I believe that Johns vision of Jesus having the name “Word of God” was where he borrowed “Word was God” from that vision.
I'm not sure what your source is here, but I've always heard that John was a Johnny-come-lately gospel; that John was written last. Most referrences that I am looking at tonight agree with this, including my NIV Study Bible.John is not the oldest gospel, it is in fact, the newest addition.
not3Yo are correct.
I was placing myself in their time. To the Apostles the Gospel of John was the Oldest.
To us it is the newest.
Point being John was written after the other Gospels, much later.
July 4, 2007 at 6:17 am#57990NickHassanParticipantHi W,
You say
“God is revealing to the church more of his truth as time goes on, but the truth that he reveals is found in the scriptures in seed form and will build on what we have”
Then your church is not following the Spirit of God.
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”Indeed the spirit teaches nothing new.
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.In fact
2Jn
” 7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. “
No new trinity teachings since Christ come from the Spirit of Christ.
July 4, 2007 at 6:26 am#57991Worshipping JesusParticipantQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2007,18:17) Hi W,
You say
“God is revealing to the church more of his truth as time goes on, but the truth that he reveals is found in the scriptures in seed form and will build on what we have”
Then your church is not following the Spirit of God.
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”Indeed the spirit teaches nothing new.
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.In fact
2Jn
” 7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. “
No new trinity teachings since Christ come from the Spirit of Christ.
NHIf it is nothing new then what is this scripture you quote saying…
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.July 4, 2007 at 7:04 am#57996NickHassanParticipantHi W,
You say
“If I am teaching wrong then show me how and I will repent.”
You teach of a new trinity god
Trinity is not written
RepentJuly 4, 2007 at 7:13 am#57998kejonnParticipantQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2007,05:46)
K
So you think the Apostles had full knowledge when they went into the world?
They had the full knowledge of the gospel message, else why would Paul say in Gal 1:9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Quote Trinitarians teach that Jesus is Both Lord and Christ. BothGod and man. We teach he is the Word/God in the flesh. To the Monotheistic Jews this would have been blasphemy to bow down and worship this Jesus. And to call him the Lord and Savior, when clearly Hebrew scriptures taught that YHWH was their only Saviour.
And they still disbelieve even today because of the Trinity doctrineDeuteronomy 13:1-3 – “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
If the trinitarians had left well enough alone and let the gospel of Jesus stand in its simplicity and perfection– the gospel that was still monotheistic — how many Jews would have come to a saving knowledge of Christ? Instead they hear of this triune God, this God whom they have not known, and reject Jesus as a false messiah.
Quote God has not changed. He is still our only Saviour.
Amen, unless you mean the triune God. Is the Holy Spirit our savior?Quote Jesus told the desciples that there would be many things he would show them but they would not be able to bear them then.
I guess we're now to assume that the Trinity is one of these things. You mean this “foundational teaching” of true Christianity?Matthew 7:21-26 – “Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.”
Wait, did Jesus actually say “the will of my Father who is in heaven”? And where did Jesus say anything about the trinity in his words to the people listening to him? What IS scary is the verse prior to this where he teaches
Matthew 7:15-20 – “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.
People have been imprisoned and killed in times past for rejecting the Trinity (Thomas Aikenhead, George van Parris, Patrick Pakingham, Matthew Hamont to name a few) — should that tell you something about the “fruits” that such a doctrine produces?
Quote The oldest Gospel that we have is the Gospel of John.
I assume you meant “newest”.Quote John wrote his Gospel between 90-100 AD, but the book of Rev was written around 68 or 69 BC. I believe that Johns vision of Jesus having the name “Word of God” was where he borrowed “Word was God” from that vision.
My bible says Revelation was written in the 90s and John 85-90. If this was the John that was with Jesus in 30 CE, he was getting on up there in age when he wrote the Gospel of John, 1-3 John, and Revelation. So this theory may or may not be valid.Quote Truly when you read the latter writings of the Apostles we see more revelation of who God is!
Either that or a greater influence of Greek philosophy and mythology. James appears to be the first NT book, and we know it is very monotheistic.Quote Ignatius a desciple of John around 100 AD wrote… Chapter XV.—Exhortation to confess Christ by silence as well as speech.
*Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ*, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies, “whose praise is in the Gospel through all the Churches. 2 Cor. viii. 18. There is nothing which is hid from the Lord, but our very secrets are near to Him. Let us therefore do all things as those who have Him dwelling in us, that we may be His temples,1 Cor. vi. 19. and He may be in us as God. Let Christ speak in us, even as He did in Paul. Let the Holy Spirit teach us to speak the things of Christ in like manner as He did.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.xv.htmlGod is one! To say there is another beside him who is not God is Idolatry.
Why bother highlighting parts of a quote from extra-biblical sources? I can write that Jesus is God all day long and it holds no power over scripture. Besides, he forgot to mention that the Holy Spirit was God too.Quote God has not changed his mind at any time.
True. Shame you don't agree with Him.Quote Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was w
ith God, and the Word was God.Unless you believe that God ceased to be God, he the Word is still God.
Which God was the Word with? The Triune God or the Oneness God? If this God was the Triune God, was the Word a forth member, making it a Quadruple God? Or was the Word with God the Father? If so, where was God the Holy Spirit? Or do you assert that the Word was with the Father and Holy Spirit which would make a dual God? If the Word was God, and became flesh, which God was left behind in Heaven? Did the whole triune God become flesh, or are we talking about Oneness again?Quote God is our “only Savior” and there is none else.
Yes, Yahweh made that claim, and He gave Jesus the power to save. Unless you think that the Holy Spirit is our savior. After all, if Yahweh is our savior, and He is a triune God, and Jesus also has power to save, it stands to reason that the Holy Spirit has the same power.Quote Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Until the time of Jesus. Yahweh did not say that He would not grant the power to save to another — it merely says there is no other than Him at that point in time. All Jesus did was through the will of His Father through his inheritance as firstborn Son.Quote Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
See previous verse. If there is no God beside Him, why do you proclaim that Jesus is God unless you support the Oneness doctrine? I see “I” not “we” or “us”. After all, Trinitarians like to refer to the use of the word “us” in Genesis 1:26 to support Trinity, why did Yahweh not continue to use “us”? Was he confused?Quote Hsa 13:4
Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
Redundant.Quote When these words were spoken Yahshua, Jesus was already the Lamb of God that was slain before the foundation of the world.
Huh? Jesus died before the foundation of the world? Was the cross the second death? Have we seen the second coming? Why are you and I still here? Better check up. Don't take that number, friend.Quote Would God change his mind or contradict himself when he says he is our “only Savior”?
Perhaps if He said “I will always be and there will never be another” but He didn't. God changed His mind on occasion (Amos 7:3,6, Exodus 32:14, Jeremiah 26:19). But this plan was in place for years so it wasn't a change of mind, it was a matter of fulfilling His will (Jer 33:16).Quote John as a strict monotheistic Jew penned the words of Jn 1:1 knowing full well there is only “One God” and “One Savior” and “One Lord”.
I agree that John was monotheistic, but he was not talking about a triune God in John 1:1 & 14. If anything, these verses support Oneness more so than the Trinity because if Word=YAHWEH, YAHWEH became flesh.I will finish later…it is late!
July 4, 2007 at 5:21 pm#58014IM4TruthParticipantone more thing: The reward for Jesus that He received for Dying on the Cross for us 1st that He returned to the nature He was before He became Man. 2th that He will be King of Kings and Lord of Lord's for a thousand years. After that He will give the Kingdom back to the Father
1Corinthians 15:27-28 THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALLJuly 4, 2007 at 5:49 pm#58015IM4TruthParticipantone more thing: The reward for Jesus that He received for Dying on the Cross for us 1st that He returned to the nature He was before He became Man. 2th that He will be King of Kings and Lord of Lord's for a thousand years. After that He will give the Kingdom back to the Father
1Corinthians 15:27-28 THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL
Chap, you are so right. Convincing others of what we believe however is hard to do. I always have to remember that OUR HEAVENLY FATHER has to do the calling. Waiting on God for me has always been hard, I am very impatient at times. IM4Truth:DJuly 4, 2007 at 6:28 pm#58017NickHassanParticipantHi W,
You quote John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.The Spirit of God HEARS the Word of God and brings the teachings of Jesus to our remembrance.
That Spirit of Christ speaks not of new things but reveals the future as already written.
But the antichrist spirit teaches beyond what is written.July 5, 2007 at 10:19 pm#58221942767ParticipantQuote (kejonn @ July 04 2007,19:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2007,05:46)
K
So you think the Apostles had full knowledge when they went into the world?
They had the full knowledge of the gospel message, else why would Paul say in Gal 1:9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Quote Trinitarians teach that Jesus is Both Lord and Christ. BothGod and man. We teach he is the Word/God in the flesh. To the Monotheistic Jews this would have been blasphemy to bow down and worship this Jesus. And to call him the Lord and Savior, when clearly Hebrew scriptures taught that YHWH was their only Saviour.
And they still disbelieve even today because of the Trinity doctrineDeuteronomy 13:1-3 – “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
If the trinitarians had left well enough alone and let the gospel of Jesus stand in its simplicity and perfection– the gospel that was still monotheistic — how many Jews would have come to a saving knowledge of Christ? Instead they hear of this triune God, this God whom they have not known, and reject Jesus as a false messiah.
Quote God has not changed. He is still our only Saviour.
Amen, unless you mean the triune God. Is the Holy Spirit our savior?Quote Jesus told the desciples that there would be many things he would show them but they would not be able to bear them then.
I guess we're now to assume that the Trinity is one of these things. You mean this “foundational teaching” of true Christianity?Matthew 7:21-26 – “Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.”
Wait, did Jesus actually say “the will of my Father who is in heaven”? And where did Jesus say anything about the trinity in his words to the people listening to him? What IS scary is the verse prior to this where he teaches
Matthew 7:15-20 – “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.
People have been imprisoned and killed in times past for rejecting the Trinity (Thomas Aikenhead, George van Parris, Patrick Pakingham, Matthew Hamont to name a few) — should that tell you something about the “fruits” that such a doctrine produces?
Quote The oldest Gospel that we have is the Gospel of John.
I assume you meant “newest”.Quote John wrote his Gospel between 90-100 AD, but the book of Rev was written around 68 or 69 BC. I believe that Johns vision of Jesus having the name “Word of God” was where he borrowed “Word was God” from that vision.
My bible says Revelation was written in the 90s and John 85-90. If this was the John that was with Jesus in 30 CE, he was getting on up there in age when he wrote the Gospel of John, 1-3 John, and Revelation. So this theory may or may not be valid.Quote Truly when you read the latter writings of the Apostles we see more revelation of who God is!
Either that or a greater influence of Greek philosophy and mythology. James appears to be the first NT book, and we know it is very monotheistic.Quote Ignatius a desciple of John around 100 AD wrote… Chapter XV.—Exhortation to confess Christ by silence as well as speech.
*Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ*, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies, “whose praise is in the Gospel through all the Churches. 2 Cor. viii. 18. There is nothing which is hid from the Lord, but our very secrets are near to Him. Let us therefore do all things as those who have Him dwelling in us, that we may be His temples,1 Cor. vi. 19. and He may be in us as God. Let Christ speak in us, even as He did in Paul. Let the Holy Spirit teach us to speak the things of Christ in like manner as He did.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.xv.htmlGod is one! To say there is another beside him who is not God is Idolatry.
Why bother highlighting parts of a quote from extra-biblical sources? I can write that Jesus is God all day long and it holds no power over scripture. Besides, he forgot to mention that the Holy Spirit was God too.Quote God has not changed his mind at any time.
True. Shame you don't agree with Him.Quote Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Unless you believe that God ceased to be God, he the Word is still God.
Which God was the Word with? The Triune God or the Oneness God? If this God was the Triune God, was the Word a forth member, making it a Quadruple God? Or was the Word with God the Father? If so, where was God the Holy Spirit? Or do you assert that the Word was with the Father and Holy Spirit which would make a dual God? If the Word was God, and became flesh, which God was left behind in Heaven? Did the whole triune God become flesh, or are we talking about Oneness again?Quote God is our “only Savior” and there is none else.
Yes, Yahweh made that claim, and He gave Jesus the power to save. Unless you think that the Holy Spirit is our savior. After all, if Yahweh is our savior, and He is a triune God, and Jesus also has power to save, it stands to reason that the Holy Spirit has the same power.Quote Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Until the time of Jesus. Yahweh did not say that He would not grant the power to save to another — it merely says there is no other than Him at that point in time. All Jesus did was through the will of His Father through his inheritance as firstborn Son.Quote Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
See previous verse. If there is no God beside Him, why do you proclaim that Jesus is God unless you support the Oneness doctrine? I see “I” not “we” or “us”. After all, Trinitarians like to refer to the use of the word “us” in Genesis 1:26 to support Trinity, why did Yahweh not continue to use “us”? Was he confused?Quote Hsa 13:4
Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
Redundant.Quote When these words were spoken Yahshua, Jesus was already the Lamb of God that was slain before the foundation of the world.
Huh? Jesus died before the foundation of the world? Was the cross the second death? Have we seen the second coming? Why are you and I still here? Better check up. Don't take that number, friend.Quote Would God change his mind or contradict himself when he says he is our “only Savior”?
Perhaps if He said “I will always be and there will never be another” but He didn't. God changed His mind on occasion (Amos 7:3,6, Exodus 32:14, Jeremiah 26:19). But this plan was in place for years so it wasn't a change of mind, it was a matter of fulfilling His will (Jer 33:16).Quote John as a strict monotheistic Jew penned the words of Jn 1:1 knowing full well there is only “One God” and “One Savior” and “One Lord”.
I agree that John was monotheistic, but he was not talking about a triune God in John 1:1 & 14. If anything, these verses support Oneness more so than the Trinity because if Word=YAHWEH, YAHWEH became flesh.I will finish later…it is late!
Amen kejohn to all of your responses to WJ. I find when evangelizing that many Jews and Muslims will not confess Jesus as Lord because in doing so they believe that they will be violating the 1st of the Ten Commandments.This is the biggest problem with the “trinity doctrine”. Many will not be saved because of this false teaching. This is a serious matter.
God Bless
July 5, 2007 at 10:37 pm#58225NickHassanParticipantHi 94,
Of course there is no salvation in scripture by confession of Jesus as Lord.July 5, 2007 at 11:16 pm#58235kejonnParticipantQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,10:37) Hi 94,
Of course there is no salvation in scripture by confession of Jesus as Lord.
Off topic on this one, but are you sure Nick?Romans 10:9-10 – that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
You and Paul might want to sit down and chat about this one .
July 5, 2007 at 11:29 pm#58236NickHassanParticipantHi KJ,
Lets go to a salvation threadJuly 5, 2007 at 11:29 pm#58237Worshipping JesusParticipantQuote (942767 @ July 06 2007,10:19) kejonn,July wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,July 04 2007,05:46]
94You say…
Quote
Amen kejohn to all of your responses to WJ. I find when evangelizing that many Jews and Muslims will not confess Jesus as Lord because in doing so they believe that they will be violating the 1st of the Ten Commandments.This is the biggest problem with the “trinity doctrine”. Many will not be saved because of this false teaching. This is a serious matter.
Have you heard a Trinitarian who dosnt confess Jesus as their Lord?
The reason why the muslims dont do it is because they equate Lord with God!
Non-Trinitarians dont confess Jesus as God like the Muslems!
They think that they can have 2 Lords and masters though!
Calling Jesus Lord and Master without acknowledging he is “True God” but just a man is breaking the first and second commandment!
Jesus said you cant serve two masters!
July 6, 2007 at 12:12 am#58245kejonnParticipantHey WJ,
1st Commandment: You shall have no other gods before Me.
A triune God is not a God that monotheistic Jews or Muslims would know. Therefore, they would reject a triune God as being another God. And as far as equating Lord with God, are you speaking of “Lord” or “LORD” who is Yahweh?
I'm confused by this statement: “Non-Trinitarians dont confess Jesus as God like the Muslems!” Should they? And are you saying that both Muslims and non-Ts are denying that Jesus is God? Your statement had some ambiguity.
How is calling Jesus Lord and Master breaking the first commandment? “You shall have no other gods before me”. If non-Ts are not claiming that Jesus is God, then there is no chance in having another god before the True God. Am I missing something ?
As for the 2nd Commandment: “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.”
How do non-Ts break this one?!? What is our idol (graven image)? A dashboard Jesus ?
2 Lords and Masters? Wha? Are you being deliberately vague?
July 6, 2007 at 12:15 am#58246Worshipping JesusParticipantQuote (kejonn @ July 06 2007,12:12) Hey WJ, 1st Commandment: You shall have no other gods before Me.
A triune God is not a God that monotheistic Jews or Muslims would know. Therefore, they would reject a triune God as being another God. And as far as equating Lord with God, are you speaking of “Lord” or “LORD” who is Yahweh?
I'm confused by this statement: “Non-Trinitarians dont confess Jesus as God like the Muslems!” Should they? And are you saying that both Muslims and non-Ts are denying that Jesus is God? Your statement had some ambiguity.
How is calling Jesus Lord and Master breaking the first commandment? “You shall have no other gods before me”. If non-Ts are not claiming that Jesus is God, then there is no chance in having another god before the True God. Am I missing something ?
As for the 2nd Commandment: “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.”
How do non-Ts break this one?!? What is our idol (graven image)? A dashboard Jesus ?
2 Lords and Masters? Wha? Are you being deliberately vague?
KObviously you do not understand the Trinitarian faith!
When you say “Triune God” what do you mean?
July 6, 2007 at 12:17 am#58247Worshipping JesusParticipantQuote (kejonn @ July 06 2007,12:12) Hey WJ, 1st Commandment: You shall have no other gods before Me.
A triune God is not a God that monotheistic Jews or Muslims would know. Therefore, they would reject a triune God as being another God. And as far as equating Lord with God, are you speaking of “Lord” or “LORD” who is Yahweh?
I'm confused by this statement: “Non-Trinitarians dont confess Jesus as God like the Muslems!” Should they? And are you saying that both Muslims and non-Ts are denying that Jesus is God? Your statement had some ambiguity.
How is calling Jesus Lord and Master breaking the first commandment? “You shall have no other gods before me”. If non-Ts are not claiming that Jesus is God, then there is no chance in having another god before the True God. Am I missing something ?
As for the 2nd Commandment: “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.”
How do non-Ts break this one?!? What is our idol (graven image)? A dashboard Jesus ?
2 Lords and Masters? Wha? Are you being deliberately vague?
KI have to go now but will address your points later tonight!
Blessings!
July 6, 2007 at 12:26 am#58249942767ParticipantQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,11:29) Quote (942767 @ July 06 2007,10:19) kejonn,July wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,July 04 2007,05:46]
94You say…
Quote
Amen kejohn to all of your responses to WJ. I find when evangelizing that many Jews and Muslims will not confess Jesus as Lord because in doing so they believe that they will be violating the 1st of the Ten Commandments.This is the biggest problem with the “trinity doctrine”. Many will not be saved because of this false teaching. This is a serious matter.
Have you heard a Trinitarian who dosnt confess Jesus as their Lord?
The reason why the muslims dont do it is because they equate Lord with God!
Non-Trinitarians dont confess Jesus as God like the Muslems!
They think that they can have 2 Lords and masters though!
Calling Jesus Lord and Master without acknowledging he is “True God” but just a man is breaking the first and second commandment!
Jesus said you cant serve two masters!
Hi WJ:Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ, and God has exalted him to His position as Lord over all of heaven and earth. He is my Lord and I love him, but he is not God in the sense that Trinitarians say. We as born again believers are subjected to God through him.
While it is true that Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, one of the main issues that keeps them believing is that they believe that there is “one God”, and the “trinity doctrine” teaches that Jesus is God.
We are not serving two masters when we obey Jesus as our Lord. He is not the source of the Word of God. He is God's Christ.
Quote 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.I believe that you have confessed Jesus as your Lord and that you love him and that you are just as sincere Christian as I, but what I have said relative to the “trinity doctrine” is true. Many Jews and Muslims will not confess Jesus as their Lord because they recongize that he is a man and not God in the sense that you are saying.
Anyway, WJ, I love you and desire God's very best for you and your family. I hope that your brother is doing well in his walk with the Lord.
God Bless
July 6, 2007 at 1:00 am#58252kejonnParticipantWJ,
I understand the Trinity as much as any other. That is to say, not much. There are so many different views of the Trinity that one just has to wonder why it even exists since it is so misunderstood even by those who think they have a grasp of it.
Here is what I know: The God of the Trinity is God who reveals Himself as God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit but without a division of nature, essence, or being. Each one of these has a different set of attributes.
On its surface, we can see some plausibility in it because we attribute God with ultimate power (as we should). But the Bible does not fully back this up, nor does it make sense when reading so many different verses.
But some say the Trinity is made up of three different persons, which is not far off from above, but still not quite the same. See why it because unclear?
What is clear is the Bible. The Bible says Jesus is God's only begotten Son. Jesus was given to us because God so loved the world! And the Holy Spirit is what indwells Christians, and is what ties us to God through Christ. The Holy Spirit also binds believers in the Body of Christ, the Church.
Why then do we try to make more of who these three are? Why do we feel the need to bind them up into One God? I thought I was onto something when I was studying the Body of Christ (many members with different functions, one body) by viewing God as something similar (takes “made in His image to a whole new level!), but 1 Cor 8:6 brought me back to reality. “One God, the Father”. Now I'm back to where I started.
I will continue to seek the truth, but I may not find it until I stand before God.
July 6, 2007 at 1:21 am#58256NickHassanParticipantHi jr,
You say
“Here is what I know: The God of the Trinity is God who reveals Himself as God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit but without a division of nature, essence, or being. Each one of these has a different set of attributes.”There are no trinity gods in the bible. There is no god the son in the bible.
The Son of God was a vessel for the Spirit of God revealing God in himself in the fullness of deity.
In Christ we can see all the powers and nature of God.
We follow him as cleased vessels for God as Spirit. - AuthorPosts
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