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Here is the first Trinity challenge: provide strong evidence of the Trinity without making any references to Jesus before he was born of Mary. In order to be valid, it must show that Jesus, The Holy Spirit, and The Father are co-equal. Since we can already classify The Father and The Son as “persons”, you must also show that the Holy Spirit is a “person”. Since you cannot refer to Jesus in his role before coming to earth, you do not have to prove co-eternal existence.
Also, you must be careful to not provide evidence that will also support Oneness.
Thanks!
kejonn,
I challenge you to please explicitly describe your theology. But there are rules you must follow:1. You must only use words which do not contain the vowels 'i' or 'o'.
2. You must only refer to NT books that are less that 22,500 words long.
3. You must never use predicates in a sentence unless they have the word “before” in them.
4. You must only use Compac computers when compiling your post.
5. You must not refer to the words of Jesus any time.
6. The words “one God” can be used but only in the context of monarchial monotheism.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 03 2007,18:14) kejonn,
I challenge you to please explicitly describe your theology. But there are rules you must follow:1. You must only use words which do not contain the vowels 'i' or 'o'.
2. You must only refer to NT books that are less that 22,500 words long.
3. You must never use predicates in a sentence unless they have the word “before” in them.
4. You must only use Compac computers when compiling your post.
5. You must not refer to the words of Jesus any time.
6. The words “one God” can be used but only in the context of monarchial monotheism.
So basically we know the answer from WJ and IS
. I mean, after all, if the Trinity is what all people say it is, it should be evident without taking 50 scriptures and tying them together and saying “see, I told you so”. Just out of curiosity, I wonder if Philip made certain that the Ethiopian went away with the proper salvation; that is, the salvation that comes from believing in the Trinity. Otherwise, the Ethiopian will not be among the dead in Christ who will rise.Acts 8:36 -39:
26 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.)
27 So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship,
28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah.
29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.”
30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:
“HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER;
AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT,
SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH.
33 “IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY;
WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION?
FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.”
34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?”
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?”
37 [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”]
38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.Or how about those poor 3000 that were supposedly saved in Acts 2 after listening to Peter. Acts 2:36-40
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.I wonder if 3000 Trinitarians walked away sure in their salvation, or merely 3000 who believed that Jesus was both Lord and Christ? Nothing in Peter's message to them mentioned the co-equality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No indication of Jesus' existence in eternity. Shame on Peter for teaching some watered down Gospel!
I could give example after example but what would be the point? I just find it sad that so many walked away from the teachings of the Apostles, why of Jesus himself while on earth, without knowing the Trinity. There are obviously some things we could have taught and asked of Jesus had we been with him. We could have asked him, asked the apostles, “Why? Why did you not preach the Trinity? Why did you water down the Gospel message?” I find it shameful myself.
Thank goodness we are able to set the record straight for others. Where Jesus and the Apostles failed, we will not.
Ephesians 1: 19-23 (New International Version)
19 “and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Is this good enough “evidence,” or truth.
Quote (kejonn @ July 03 2007,23:27) So basically we know the answer from WJ and IS . I mean, after all, if the Trinity is what all people say it is, it should be evident without taking 50 scriptures and tying them together and saying “see, I told you so”. Just out of curiosity, I wonder if Philip made certain that the Ethiopian went away with the proper salvation; that is, the salvation that comes from believing in the Trinity. Otherwise, the Ethiopian will not be among the dead in Christ who will rise.Acts 8:36 -39:
26 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.)
27 So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship,
28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah.
29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.”
30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:
“HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER;
AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT,
SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH.
33 “IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY;
WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION?
FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.”
34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?”
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?”
37 [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”]
38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.Or how about those poor 3000 that were supposedly saved in Acts 2 after listening to Peter. Acts 2:36-40
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.I wonder if 3000 Trinitarians walked away sure in their salvation, or merely 3000 who believed that Jesus was both Lord and Christ? Nothing in Peter's message to them mentioned the co-equality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No indication of Jesus' existence in eternity. Shame on Peter for teaching some watered down Gospel!
I could give example after example but what would be the point? I just find it sad that so many walked away from the teachings of the Apostles, why of Jesus himself while on earth, without knowing the Trinity. There are obviously some things we could have taught and asked of Jesus had we been with him. We could have asked him, asked the apostles, “Why? Why did you not preach the Trinity? Why did you water down the Gospel message?” I find it shameful myself.
Thank goodness we are able to set the record straight for others. Where Jesus and the Apostles failed, we will not.
KSo you think the Apostles had full knowledge when they went into the world?
Trinitarians teach that Jesus is Both Lord and Christ. Both God and man. We teach he is the Word/God in the flesh.
To the Monotheistic Jews this would have been blasphemy to bow down and worship this Jesus. And to call him the Lord and Savior, when clearly Hebrew scriptures taught that YHWH was their only Saviour.
God has not changed. He is still our only Saviour.
Jesus told the desciples that there would be many things he would show them but they would not be able to bear them then.
Jn 16:12
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.Is it entirely possible that the Apostles didnt have a full understanding of God at that time?
The oldest Gospel that we have is the Gospel of John.
John wrote his Gospel between 90-100 AD, but the book of Rev was written around 68 or 69 BC. I believe that Johns vision of Jesus having the name “Word of God” was where he borrowed “Word was God” from that vision.
Truly when you read the latter writtings of the Apostles we see more revelation of who God is!
Ignatius a desciple of John around 100 AD wrote…
Chapter XV.—Exhortation to confess Christ by silence as well as speech.
*Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ*, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies, “whose praise is in the Gospel through all the Churches. 2 Cor. viii. 18. There is nothing which is hid from the Lord, but our very secrets are near to Him. Let us therefore do all things as those who have Him dwelling in us, that we may be His temples,1 Cor. vi. 19. and He may be in us as God. Let Christ speak in us, even as He did in Paul. Let the Holy Spirit teach us to speak the things of Christ in like manner as He did.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.xv.htmlGod is one! To say there is another beside him who is not God is Idolatry.
God has not changed his mind at any time.
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Unless you believe that God ceased to be God, he the Word is still God.
God is our “only Savior” and there is none else.
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.Hsa 13:4
Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.When these words were spoken Yahshua, Jesus was already the Lamb of God that was slain before the foundation of the world.
Would God change his mind or contradict himself when he says he is our “only Savior”?
I think not.
John as a strict monotheistic Jew penned the words of Jn 1:1 knowing full well there is only “One God” and “One Savior” and “One Lord”.
Furthermore John believed that Jesus was YHW
H in the flesh…Look here and see the proof…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311
Men claim that they have a “mere man” now as their saviour calling him there Lord and Master when Jesus says that you cant have “Two Masters”.
Matt 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.The scriptures clearly teach that there is only “One Lord” and we are to serve One Lord.
Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:Zech ch 14 tells us of YHWH whos feet shall stand on the mount of olives…
Zeh 14:3
Then shall the LORD (YHWH) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the southSome would spiritualize this scripture away but, this passage unambiguously shows that YHWH is Jesus the Word/God who who came in the flesh as our “Only Saviour and Lord”, and his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives.
Zech 14:9
And the LORD (YHWH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be *one LORD*, and his name one.Who is this “King of Kings” and “Lord of Lords”? Who has the “Name” that is above every name.
1 Tim 6:
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.Rev 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.Rev 19:6
And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Some would say “Yahsua” whos name means “YHWH is salvation” is just a representitive for YHWH. He is just another anointed prophet or king or some special man or something else.But the Father speaks of him as being God confirming Jn 1:1 and 1 Cor 15:47, as the Lord from heaven…
Heb 1:
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.Jesus said men should honor him as they honor God!
Jn 5:23
23 That all men should honour the Son, *even as* they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.You cannot have God apart from having Jesus.
Yet this would be a blatant contradiction of the Monotheistic Hebrew scriptures that tell us there is “none” beside him or like him.
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,
Truly John knew these things when he recorded John 1:1.
John could have used another greek word other than “Theos” but he didnt. He then ends his Gospel with Thomas saying..
Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, *thou hast believed*: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
These truths demolish the lies of darkness that seek to bring our Lord God down to just being a man.
Truly Jesus is Lord and God.
There is no contradictions in scriptures.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is “One God”!
The Father and Son are one God. There is a sharing of power between these two. The holy spirit is not God. Proof:
Ephesians 1: 19-23 (New International Version)
19 “and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Is this good enough “evidence,” or truth.
This passage of scripture doesn't say that the Holy Spirit is seated at “his right hand in the heaven.”
Jesus and Jesus alone was given this authority and power to be seated as God's right hand. Not the Holy Spirit.
WJ, don't have time to answer to all of your post, but I will ask you this: Do you believe that belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation? Is so, look back over your post and realize what you have said. You basically said that belief in the Trinity was NOT necessary for the 1st century believers, so why is it necessary now? If you say it is, you've changed the original Gospel.
Galatians 1:6-8 – I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
How does this compare with your statement:
Quote Is it entirely possible that the Apostles didn't have a full understanding of God at that time?
If that is so, then Paul's words in Galatians were either a waste or Trinitarians are preaching this different gospel.In essence then, there is not the Old Covenant and New Covenant – there is the Old Covenant, New Covenant, and the Revised New Covenant. I certainly hope that 1st century believers are “grandfathered in”. i was looking forward to meeting some of those who saw Jesus on earth.
Quote (acertainchap @ July 04 2007,01:39) Ephesians 1: 19-23 (New International Version) 19 “and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Is this good enough “evidence,” or truth.
Hi Chap,Well, it's certainly truth, but it does not speak of a Trinity.
In order for a scripture to be speaking specifically of a “triune God” it would need to say that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the One true God. You will find no such verse.
Instead, you find in John 17:3 it says that the Father is the one true God.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2007,05:46) The oldest Gospel that we have is the Gospel of John. John wrote his Gospel between 90-100 AD, but the book of Rev was written around 68 or 69 BC. I believe that Johns vision of Jesus having the name “Word of God” was where he borrowed “Word was God” from that vision.
I'm not sure what your source is here, but I've always heard that John was a Johnny-come-lately gospel; that John was written last. Most referrences that I am looking at tonight agree with this, including my NIV Study Bible.John is not the oldest gospel, it is in fact, the newest addition.
Chap, I'm glad to see that you are questioning the Trinity and possibly deciding for yourself that it is a false teaching. I am encouraged by your fierce desire to know the truth. Keep reading the Word and praying – seek God with everything that you are.
If something doesn't make sense, there is probably a good reason for that……..
The Trinity doesn't make sense.Hi WJ:
You say:
Quote Is it entirely possible that the Apostles didnt have a full understanding of God at that time? And so, are you saying that you have greater revelation than the Apostles who Jesus ordained including the Apostle Paul?
Quote 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.The doctrine of “Trinity” is not written, and, therefore, it is not given by the inspiration of God.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ July 04 2007,16:08) The doctrine of “Trinity” is not written, and, therefore, it is not given by the inspiration of God.
94,Excellent point! I'll remember this one.
Quote (kejonn @ July 04 2007,13:40) WJ, don't have time to answer to all of your post, but I will ask you this: Do you believe that belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation? Is so, look back over your post and realize what you have said. You basically said that belief in the Trinity was NOT necessary for the 1st century believers, so why is it necessary now? If you say it is, you've changed the original Gospel. Galatians 1:6-8 – I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
How does this compare with your statement:
Quote Is it entirely possible that the Apostles didn't have a full understanding of God at that time?
If that is so, then Paul's words in Galatians were either a waste or Trinitarians are preaching this different gospel.In essence then, there is not the Old Covenant and New Covenant – there is the Old Covenant, New Covenant, and the Revised New Covenant. I certainly hope that 1st century believers are “grandfathered in”. i was looking forward to meeting some of those who saw Jesus on earth.
KWhat I am saying is tha the Gospel of John was written at a later time.
If you cant see the difference in Johns Gospel and the others, well what can I say.
If you think that the early Apostles had “all truth” then you are kidding yourself.
Again Jesus said…
Jn 16:12
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.You assume that Paul was not a Trinitarian, yet Paul says that Jesus is the Spirit and that the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God. Rom 8:9.
Also it was Paul that revealed that Jesus was in the form of God before he took on the likeness of sinful flesh. Phil 2:
And more importantly Paul a strict Monotheistic Jew, a Hebrew of the Hebrews knew that Hebrew scriptures declared that “YHWH” himself created the heavens “Alone”, yet Paul says…
Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.How do you explain this?
John later reveals that Jesus is God in John 1:1 and 20:28 and 1 Jn 5:20 and also John reveals Jesus is YHWH according to John 19:37 and Zech 12:10.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311
And later Ignatius Johns desciple writes of Jesus as being God also.
Instead of just resorting to the usual “The trinity is not true” or sarcasm and accusations, why dont you pick out of my post something I said that is not true and show me why biblically!
My affirmation that the disciples didnt have “all Truth”, is not meant to say that there will be a new gospel or a contradiction of that which God had shown them.
But I believe that revelation is progressive, and as times goes the Lord will reveal to his church new things to come, building on what has been revealed!
If I am teaching wrong then show me how and I will repent.
In my opinion there is more evidence in scripture that Jesus is God than not.
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