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Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 29 2009,11:32) Hi TC,
You have to fall back on weak theology because scripture does not support your ideas?
Jesus said he is the Son of God but you ignore him.
Nick,How is that weak theology? It takes knowledge of the Hebrew language to understand Scripture. Apparently my knowledge of the Hebrew is only weak in your opinion because it disagrees with your beliefs. Why don't you bring more to the table then just silly accusations of my weak theology?
TC27
Hi TC,
No you need the Spirit more than the musings of men.
You have abandoned reliance on scripture preferring man's ideas supported when possible by scripture.Wake up.
Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,20:29) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 25 2009,17:50) “Fully” God, “fully” man. Words have completely lost their meaning!
Jehovah said “I will become who I am becoming”, Exodus 3:14.http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
Jehovah had become a fire in the midst of a burning bush when He said this. If He can do this, then He may certainly become something made in His own image. He is immanent!
Anti-trinitarianism's major flaw is that it holds that God is so transcendent that He cannot become immanent. God could not become a man so He had to send a man. This implies that God Himself cannot know first hand how we feel.
thinker
Hi thethinker:God can manifest Himself in various forms, but God is eternal and cannot die.
Quote Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 30 2009,08:10) Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,20:29) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 25 2009,17:50) “Fully” God, “fully” man. Words have completely lost their meaning!
Jehovah said “I will become who I am becoming”, Exodus 3:14.http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
Jehovah had become a fire in the midst of a burning bush when He said this. If He can do this, then He may certainly become something made in His own image. He is immanent!
Anti-trinitarianism's major flaw is that it holds that God is so transcendent that He cannot become immanent. God could not become a man so He had to send a man. This implies that God Himself cannot know first hand how we feel.
thinker
Hi thethinker:God can manifest Himself in various forms, but God is eternal and cannot die.
Quote Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
I m glad we agree that God could manifest Himself in various forms. He can indeed die in the sense that all men die. So define what you mean by “death.”thinker
Hi TT,
So where did scripture teach that our immortal living God and His living Spirit can die?Theologians are addling your mind.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2009,08:28) Hi TT,
So where did scripture teach that our immortal living God and His living Spirit can die?Theologians are addling your mind.
Nick,
I have said it a thousand times man. You are really annoying me.Quote Feed the church of God which He has purchased with His own blood (Acts 20:28) So define what you mean by “death” and back it up with scripture.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,08:26) Quote (942767 @ July 30 2009,08:10) Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,20:29) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 25 2009,17:50) “Fully” God, “fully” man. Words have completely lost their meaning!
Jehovah said “I will become who I am becoming”, Exodus 3:14.http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
Jehovah had become a fire in the midst of a burning bush when He said this. If He can do this, then He may certainly become something made in His own image. He is immanent!
Anti-trinitarianism's major flaw is that it holds that God is so transcendent that He cannot become immanent. God could not become a man so He had to send a man. This implies that God Himself cannot know first hand how we feel.
thinker
Hi thethinker:God can manifest Himself in various forms, but God is eternal and cannot die.
Quote Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
I m glad we agree that God could manifest Himself in various forms. He can indeed die in the sense that all men die. So define what you mean by “death.”thinker
Hi thethinker:I was thinking of death as it relates to the death of the body, but also death means spiritual separation from God.
Also, God cannot be tempted to commit sin.
You give me an opinion that God can indeed die, but where is your scripture to support this.
The scripture states:
Quote 1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. Quote Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thethinker @ July 29 2009,11:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 29 2009,20:41) Hi TT,
When were you given permission to add to scripture?
I guess when you adopted a false trinity theology as your basis you felt free to do whatever you like?
Nick,
You said that “Lord” does not mean “God.” Did you not say this? So when Jesus said of the Father “My God” He did not mean “My Sovereign.” You said that “Lord” does not mean “God.”God was Christ's Father and NOT His Lord just as you are your son's father and NOT his sovereign. Jesus has been exalted as King of kings and Lord of lords. Therefore, He has no sovereign over Him.
thinker
Wow Thinker did you just say that God, Jesus' Father was not His (Jesus') sovereign? Did you really mean that?And that is the main reason I would not be a trinitarian.
Kathi
Marty said:
Quote You give me an opinion that God can indeed die, but where is your scripture to support this.
Acts 20:28,Quote Feed the church of God which He has purchased with His own blood (Acts 20:28)
The inference is clear.Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “living.” This was BEFORE the resurrection. So men are alive though “dead.”
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,02:12) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,01:07) Hi all,
There is one true always existing God (the Father) and one true begotten God (the Son). The begotten God says that He has a God more than once and even after His exaltation.Here it is before His exaltation:
Joh 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, `I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' ”Here it is after His exaltation:
Re 3:12
He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.God's love,
Kathi
KathiSo what does that prove? That we have a big God and a little god.
Jesus calls the Father God because of his manhood!
That simple. Jesus Spiritual nature is no less than the Father and to see him as such is idolatry.
Now maybe you can show us a scripture where Jesus called the Father God before he came in the flesh!
You cannot have two masters or lords or gods!
Again, your lonely NASB Translation is a poor translation of John 1:18, the only place in the NT that is translated that way.
Paul, John, Thomas, Luke and Peter nowhere calls Jesus a begotten god!
WJ
Keith,
“Son of God” is equal to “begotten God” IMO and He is called “Son of God” 40+ times in the NT by many.Blessings,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,09:09) Quote (thethinker @ July 29 2009,11:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 29 2009,20:41) Hi TT,
When were you given permission to add to scripture?
I guess when you adopted a false trinity theology as your basis you felt free to do whatever you like?
Nick,
You said that “Lord” does not mean “God.” Did you not say this? So when Jesus said of the Father “My God” He did not mean “My Sovereign.” You said that “Lord” does not mean “God.”God was Christ's Father and NOT His Lord just as you are your son's father and NOT his sovereign. Jesus has been exalted as King of kings and Lord of lords. Therefore, He has no sovereign over Him.
thinker
Wow Thinker did you just say that God, Jesus' Father was not His (Jesus') sovereign? Did you really mean that?And that is the main reason I would not be a trinitarian.
Kathi
Kathi,
Anti-trinitatians here say that “Lord” does not mean “God.” So when Jesus said “My God” in reference to His Father He was not necessarily saying that His Father was His Lord. Live with the implications of your separation between the terms “Lord” and “God.”When Jesus said “My God” in reference to His Father He was referring to His covenantal relationship with His Father. He did not infer that His Father was His Lord. I am not the “lord” of my daughter. She is an adult. Jesus was not God's child. He was God's Son. In Hebrew culture the father was lord over the child but not the son.
thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,17:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,02:12) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,01:07) Hi all,
There is one true always existing God (the Father) and one true begotten God (the Son). The begotten God says that He has a God more than once and even after His exaltation.Here it is before His exaltation:
Joh 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, `I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' ”Here it is after His exaltation:
Re 3:12
He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.God's love,
Kathi
KathiSo what does that prove? That we have a big God and a little god.
Jesus calls the Father God because of his manhood!
That simple. Jesus Spiritual nature is no less than the Father and to see him as such is idolatry.
Now maybe you can show us a scripture where Jesus called the Father God before he came in the flesh!
You cannot have two masters or lords or gods!
Again, your lonely NASB Translation is a poor translation of John 1:18, the only place in the NT that is translated that way.
Paul, John, Thomas, Luke and Peter nowhere calls Jesus a begotten god!
WJ
Keith,
“Son of God” is equal to “begotten God” IMO and He is called “Son of God” 40+ times in the NT by many.Blessings,
Kathi
Hi KathiAnd he was declared the Son of God when the Word that was with God and was God took on the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man.
When Paul called Jesus his Great God and Saviour he could have said “Son of God” or “Begotten God” but he didn't, and the context of Titus 2:13 and the GSR makes the scripture unambiguous!
Son of God and begotten God are not synonomous, for a son of God does not nesesarily imply “born of” where as “Begotten” does and is misleading.
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,09:23) Marty said: Quote You give me an opinion that God can indeed die, but where is your scripture to support this.
Acts 20:28,Quote Feed the church of God which He has purchased with His own blood (Acts 20:28)
The inference is clear.Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “living.” This was BEFORE the resurrection. So men are alive though “dead.”
thinker
Hi thethinker:So according to you the inference that these men are alive although they died supports your statement that God can die and supecedes the following scripture which states that he is immortal?
Quote 1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. The soul of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive to God because they are part of the body of Christ.
Jesus shows what is meant by that here:
Quote Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son and, therefore, His own flesh and blood, just like my son would be my own flesh and blood, but just as my son and I are two different individuals, the Son is not God, and it is the Son that died and not God. God may have died in the person of Jesus Christ in the sense that in his soul he felt all the pain that was inflicted in his Son, but no, He did not literally die. The scripture clearly states that He is immortal.
And as I stated, death also means spiritual separation from God, and so if God died, He would have been spiritually separated from Himself?
Thinker, it appears that you are going to extreme means to try to justify the doctrine of the “Trinity”.
Why not just admit that this doctrine is a misunderstanding of scripture so that we can go on about our Father's business and teach the people the truth?
Love in Christ,
MartyKeith,
Jesus is the begotten son of God not the designated son of God.John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJVSon of Man and begotten man are synonymous. Son of God and begotten God are synonymous also, IMO. That is simple and understandable.
Kathi
Quote (thethinker @ July 29 2009,17:33) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,09:09) Quote (thethinker @ July 29 2009,11:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 29 2009,20:41) Hi TT,
When were you given permission to add to scripture?
I guess when you adopted a false trinity theology as your basis you felt free to do whatever you like?
Nick,
You said that “Lord” does not mean “God.” Did you not say this? So when Jesus said of the Father “My God” He did not mean “My Sovereign.” You said that “Lord” does not mean “God.”God was Christ's Father and NOT His Lord just as you are your son's father and NOT his sovereign. Jesus has been exalted as King of kings and Lord of lords. Therefore, He has no sovereign over Him.
thinker
Wow Thinker did you just say that God, Jesus' Father was not His (Jesus') sovereign? Did you really mean that?And that is the main reason I would not be a trinitarian.
Kathi
Kathi,
Anti-trinitatians here say that “Lord” does not mean “God.” So when Jesus said “My God” in reference to His Father He was not necessarily saying that His Father was His Lord. Live with the implications of your separation between the terms “Lord” and “God.”When Jesus said “My God” in reference to His Father He was referring to His covenantal relationship with His Father. He did not infer that His Father was His Lord. I am not the “lord” of my daughter. She is an adult. Jesus was not God's child. He was God's Son. In Hebrew culture the father was lord over the child but not the son.
thinker
Thinker,There ya go again with “anti-trinitarians” and making all those who do not agree with the trinity doctrine “anti-trinitarians” and all of them saying this or that. No wonder we do not get any where.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,18:14) Keith,
Jesus is the begotten son of God not the designated son of God.John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJVSon of Man and begotten man are synonymous. Son of God and begotten God are synonymous also, IMO. That is simple and understandable.
Kathi
Hi KathiDid I use the word “designate”?
who was “declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, Rom 1:4
Jesus as the Word was never called the Son of God until he came in the flesh!
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's “one and only (monogenes) Son“. John 3:18
The KJV and NASB use begotten which is misleading. Most translate it “one and only”.
The NET translators say…
Although this word is often translated “only begotten,” such a translation is misleading, since in English it appears to express a metaphysical relationship. The word in Greek was used of an only child (a son [Luke 7:12, 9:38] or a daughter [Luke 8:42]). It was also used of something unique (only one of its kind) such as the mythological Phoenix (1 Clement 25:2). From here it passes easily to a description of Isaac (Heb 11:17 and Josephus, Ant. 1.13.1 [1.222]) who was not Abraham’s only son, but was one-of-a-kind because he was the child of the promise. Thus the word means “one-of-a-kind” and is reserved for Jesus in the Johannine literature of the NT. While all Christians are children of God (τέκνα θεοῦ, tekna qeou), Jesus is God’s Son in a unique, one-of-a-kind sense. The word is used in this way in all its uses in the Gospel of John (1:14, 1:18, 3:16, and 3:18). Source!
In no way does “begotten Son of God” equate to begotten God!
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,18:25) Quote (thethinker @ July 29 2009,17:33) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,09:09) Quote (thethinker @ July 29 2009,11:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 29 2009,20:41) Hi TT,
When were you given permission to add to scripture?
I guess when you adopted a false trinity theology as your basis you felt free to do whatever you like?
Nick,
You said that “Lord” does not mean “God.” Did you not say this? So when Jesus said of the Father “My God” He did not mean “My Sovereign.” You said that “Lord” does not mean “God.”God was Christ's Father and NOT His Lord just as you are your son's father and NOT his sovereign. Jesus has been exalted as King of kings and Lord of lords. Therefore, He has no sovereign over Him.
thinker
Wow Thinker did you just say that God, Jesus' Father was not His (Jesus') sovereign? Did you really mean that?And that is the main reason I would not be a trinitarian.
Kathi
Kathi,
Anti-trinitatians here say that “Lord” does not mean “God.” So when Jesus said “My God” in reference to His Father He was not necessarily saying that His Father was His Lord. Live with the implications of your separation between the terms “Lord” and “God.”When Jesus said “My God” in reference to His Father He was referring to His covenantal relationship with His Father. He did not infer that His Father was His Lord. I am not the “lord” of my daughter. She is an adult. Jesus was not God's child. He was God's Son. In Hebrew culture the father was lord over the child but not the son.
thinker
Thinker,There ya go again with “anti-trinitarians” and making all those who do not agree with the trinity doctrine “anti-trinitarians” and all of them saying this or that. No wonder we do not get any where.
Kathi
Hi KathiI do not see what the problem is.
If you and others see the Trinitarian doctrine as being so detrimental to the faith, then that makes you and others “anti” meaning against!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,20:29) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 25 2009,17:50) “Fully” God, “fully” man. Words have completely lost their meaning!
Jehovah said “I will become who I am becoming”, Exodus 3:14.http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
Jehovah had become a fire in the midst of a burning bush when He said this. If He can do this, then He may certainly become something made in His own image. He is immanent!
Anti-trinitarianism major flaw is that it holds that God is so transcendent that He cannot become immanent. God could not become a man so He had to send a man. This implies that God Himself cannot know first hand how we feel.
thinker
thinker God Himself never became a man. And yes Jesus became a man. But He was with the Father before His Birth as a Man.
He is the firstborn of all creation and was a Spirit Being until He was born a man. I know not all believe in the preexisting of Jesus. But that is according to Scripture in
Col 1:15, John 1:14, Rev. 3:14 and I might add that He created all.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,18:39) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,18:14) Keith,
Jesus is the begotten son of God not the designated son of God.John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJVSon of Man and begotten man are synonymous. Son of God and begotten God are synonymous also, IMO. That is simple and understandable.
Kathi
Hi KathiDid I use the word “designate”?
who was “declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, Rom 1:4
Jesus as the Word was never called the Son of God until he came in the flesh!
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's “one and only (monogenes) Son“. John 3:18
The KJV and NASB use begotten which is misleading. Most translate it “one and only”.
The NET translators say…
Although this word is often translated “only begotten,” such a translation is misleading, since in English it appears to express a metaphysical relationship. The word in Greek was used of an only child (a son [Luke 7:12, 9:38] or a daughter [Luke 8:42]). It was also used of something unique (only one of its kind) such as the mythological Phoenix (1 Clement 25:2). From here it passes easily to a description of Isaac (Heb 11:17 and Josephus, Ant. 1.13.1 [1.222]) who was not Abraham’s only son, but was one-of-a-kind because he was the child of the promise. Thus the word means “one-of-a-kind” and is reserved for Jesus in the Johannine literature of the NT. While all Christians are children of God (τέκνα θεοῦ, tekna qeou), Jesus is God’s Son in a unique, one-of-a-kind sense. The word is used in this way in all its uses in the Gospel of John (1:14, 1:18, 3:16, and 3:18). Source!
In no way does “begotten Son of God” equate to begotten God!
WJ
Keith,
I have no problem with there being a son that is actually born of GOD, the NET translators apparently do because it “appears to express a metaphysical relationship” (at least they admit what it does appear to express), it is just a difference in translating out of a trinity mindset and not because of what the Greek dictates. I see the Son as a real son with a beginning before creation, you don't and on that we may never agree.If written words say something that goes against a preconceived idea then why is it automatically “misleading”. Just maybe it is saying truth that one hasn't realized yet and appears misleading to them because they think something is true when it is not and it is their foundation that needs to be adjusted.
Again, begotten son of man equates to begotten man and thus begotten Son of God can equate to begotten God.
Kathi
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2009,11:02) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,18:25) Quote (thethinker @ July 29 2009,17:33) Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,09:09) Quote (thethinker @ July 29 2009,11:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 29 2009,20:41) Hi TT,
When were you given permission to add to scripture?
I guess when you adopted a false trinity theology as your basis you felt free to do whatever you like?
Nick,
You said that “Lord” does not mean “God.” Did you not say this? So when Jesus said of the Father “My God” He did not mean “My Sovereign.” You said that “Lord” does not mean “God.”God was Christ's Father and NOT His Lord just as you are your son's father and NOT his sovereign. Jesus has been exalted as King of kings and Lord of lords. Therefore, He has no sovereign over Him.
thinker
Wow Thinker did you just say that God, Jesus' Father was not His (Jesus') sovereign? Did you really mean that?And that is the main reason I would not be a trinitarian.
Kathi
Kathi,
Anti-trinitatians here say that “Lord” does not mean “God.” So when Jesus said “My God” in reference to His Father He was not necessarily saying that His Father was His Lord. Live with the implications of your separation between the terms “Lord” and “God.”When Jesus said “My God” in reference to His Father He was referring to His covenantal relationship with His Father. He did not infer that His Father was His Lord. I am not the “lord” of my daughter. She is an adult. Jesus was not God's child. He was God's Son. In Hebrew culture the father was lord over the child but not the son.
thinker
Thinker,There ya go again with “anti-trinitarians” and making all those who do not agree with the trinity doctrine “anti-trinitarians” and all of them saying this or that. No wonder we do not get any where.
Kathi
Hi KathiI do not see what the problem is.
If you and others see the Trinitarian doctrine as being so detrimental to the faith, then that makes you and others “anti” meaning against!
WJ
Keith,
Exactly! Trinitarians are called “idolaters” here. I can't imagine that I am called an idolater for worshiping the One who died for me. Jesus said that all men must honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father. Yet I am an labeled an “idolater” because I obey this.Kathi,
When I say “anti-trinitarian” I am being kind.Jack
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