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Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 18 2006,08:21) Far out t8, that is so far removed from what I believe that it's not funny. You see, I was never taught that church stuff. I was a criminal, drug dependant, occult practising, aggressive social misfit when I met the Lord. I've changed a tad from then 
So there is no traditional teaching going on here. In fact, a lot of the things God has taught me don't line up at all well with traditional thinking, but the Lord has shown me how they line up with Scripture.
I'm not saying I have the perfect understanding and I am definately no theologian, but I know what God tells me, and as I said before, I don't see that calling the Son of God, God, any more than calling the son of man, man. The word trinity only means 3 as far as I am concerned. I don't hold with the theory that somehow the 3 are bundled into one non identifiable mass.
Hi Oxy,
That should be no surprise to you for Tertullian and Athanasius were not catholics either but they drew false conclusions from the bible and deceived millions for 1700 years.
That is why we have to look deeper at the spiritual realm1 Jn 4.1f
“1(A)Beloved, do not believe every (B)spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because ©many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2By this you know the Spirit of God: (D)every spirit that (E)confesses that (F)Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3and every spirit that (G)does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the (H)antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and (I)now it is already in the world.”Trinity theory is antichrist and of deception because it teaches that God came in the flesh, not the Son of that God.
Where do you stand?
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 18 2006,11:29) Hi t8,..It identifies that God is 3, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three seperate identities, but one God.
Hi Oxy,1. As others have already pointed out, there's error in that thinking and if you are willing, we can have a move indepth discussion in the Trinity thread so we can hopefully come to a scriptural understanding as to why we each say what we do.
2. Can you tell us what you mean by Jesus being God? And by God, which God do you mean?
3. You're right, there seems to be some confusion as to what different people understand to be the Trinity. It is still erroneous since we are hid in Christ and Christ is hid in God.
4. If you are not willing to surrender a word that represents a false God (that is a three-personed God), why do you care about us referring to the literal speeches of God as the word of God, to mean that things that have been said to us either by God or per his inspiration and instruction? Surely, the use of word of God to as a generic and discriptive term to refer to such volume of work is less erroneous than creating the impression, through your choice of vocabulary, that God is the three-person being that some make him out to be. That is what the word represents to gazillions of its advocates. Some do this innocently of course. But there's enough evidence to the truth which is that we have one God who is the Father, to those who are interested.
5. Finally, praised be to God for your conversion and the wonders he has done in your life. I do not doubt your personal experiences with God and how it outflows towards others. However, when it comes to doctrine and the scriptures, I believe it is safe to go by “it is written,” just as our Lord Jesus and the apostles after him. We should hold one another accountable to that lest we be swept yet along another false trail.
Blessings and hope to respond to your response some time on later.
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 19 2006,03:21) Far out t8, that is so far removed from what I believe that it's not funny. You see, I was never taught that church stuff. I was a criminal, drug dependant, occult practising, aggressive social misfit when I met the Lord. I've changed a tad from then So there is no traditional teaching going on here. In fact, a lot of the things God has taught me don't line up at all well with traditional thinking, but the Lord has shown me how they line up with Scripture.
I'm not saying I have the perfect understanding and I am definately no theologian, but I know what God tells me, and as I said before, I don't see that calling the Son of God, God, any more than calling the son of man, man. The word trinity only means 3 as far as I am concerned. I don't hold with the theory that somehow the 3 are bundled into one non identifiable mass.
Hey Oxy that is good. It seems like God is changing you and has changed you. My background was pretty similar too, but I have been a believer more years now than my previous life as an atheist.The thing for me was that I was surrounded by such lies that the only way I was going to learn the truth was to be completely focussed on what God wanted.
Over the years that commitment has saved me many times and has brought me safely along the path, but after a while you also start to see through the apostacy that surrounds us and that the scriptures talk of.
Now regarding your last quote:
Quote I'm not saying I have the perfect understanding and I am definately no theologian, but I know what God tells me, and as I said before, I don't see that calling the Son of God, God, any more than calling the son of man, man. My question to you is this:
Are you a son of God?
If yes, are you God?
Hi T8,
We are adopted Sons and are not true Sons. If we say we are true Sons we claim to be the true nature of the Father, there is only one who is the exact image of his nature/essence.
Rom 8:15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear: but you have received the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION of sons, whereby we cry: Abba (Father).
Rom 8:23 And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit: even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the ADOPTION of the SONS OF GOD, the redemption of our body.
Most importantly “what” makes us adopted Sons of God… Do we directly derive our Sonship from the Father alone without the work of His only true Son.
Gal 4:5 That he might redeem them who were under the law: that we might receive the ADOPTION of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God hath sent the SPIRIT OF HIS SON into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father.1Pe 4:14 If you be reproached for the name of Christ, you shall be blessed: for that WHICH IS OF THE HONOUR, GLORY AND POWER OF GOD, and that WHICH IS HIS SPIRIT resteth upon you.
Eph 1:5 Who hath predestinated us unto the ADOPTION of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will:
Eph 1:6 Unto the praise of the GLORY OF HIS GRACE, in which he hath graced us, IN HIS BELOVED SON.It is by the Fathers charity the Sons grace and the communication of the Holy Spirit we can become adopted Sons of God.
1Jo 1:2 FOR THE LIFE WAS MANIFESTED: and we have seen and do bear witness and declare unto you the life eternal, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER and hath appeared to us.
Without the true Son we are not Sons this is why we are called adopted Sons.
True earthly Sons don’t rely on other Sons to make them Sons…. We have to rely on Jesus because we haven’t got the Nature/Essence of the Father, we are Sons only in the True Son.1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony that God hath given to us eternal life. AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life. HE THAT HATH NOT THE SON HATH NOT LIFE.
1Jo 5:13 These things I write to you that you may know that you have eternal life: you who BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come. And he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God and may be in his TRUE SON. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD AND LIFE ETERNAL.There is only one Son of God who can claim the true nature of the Father?
1Jo 1:5 And this is the declaration which we have heard from him and declare unto you: That GOD IS LIGHT and in him there is no darkness.
Only the Jesus is the true Son the True Nature of the Father.Joh 1:9 THAT WAS THE TRUE LIGHT, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.
Joh 1:10 HE WAS IN THE WORLD: AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM: and the world knew him not.So Jesus the Son of God can be true God by nature just as a true Son of Man can be true Man by nature.
I believe we need to understand earthly concepts before we can understand heavenly concepts.
Also,
Yes the Catholic Church does teach that the Trinity is one BUT not one in Solitude. A Wife and a Husband are one flesh but they are not one flesh in Solitude.
254 THE DIVINE PERSONS ARE REALLY DISTINCT FROM ONE ANOTHER. “God is one BUT NOT SOLITARY.” “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” ARE NOT SIMPLY NAMES designating modalities of the divine being, FOR THEY ARE REALLY DISTINCT FROM ONE ANOTHER: “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.” THEY ARE DISTINCT FROM ONE ANOTHER IN THEIR RELATIONS OF ORIGIN: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.” THE DIVINE UNITY IS TRIUNE.
255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: “In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance.” Indeed “everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship.” “Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.”
240 JESUS REVEALED THAT GOD IS FATHER IN AN UNHEARD-OF SENSE: HE IS FATHER NOT ONLY IN BEING CREATOR; HE IS ETERNALLY FATHER IN RELATION TO HIS ONLY SON, who is eternally Son only in relation to his Father: “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
241 For this reason the apostles confess Jesus to be the Word: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”; as “the image of the invisible God”; as the “radiance of the glory of God and the very stamp of his nature”.
God has reveal himself as alone, who alone created the heavens and alone is the Saviour. God has revealed Himself as One but one in plural terms not one in solitude.
This is why the Church claims God to be one but not in solitude. Like the Father and the Son are one but they are not one in Solitude. Just the same as the following scripture reveals.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.
Blessings in the name of Jesus.
Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Aug. 18 2006,13:37) Hi T8, We are adopted Sons and are not true Sons. If we say we are true Sons we claim to be the true nature of the Father, there is only one who is the exact image of his nature/essence.
Rom 8:15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear: but you have received the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION of sons, whereby we cry: Abba (Father).
Rom 8:23 And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit: even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the ADOPTION of the SONS OF GOD, the redemption of our body.
Most importantly “what” makes us adopted Sons of God… Do we directly derive our Sonship from the Father alone without the work of His only true Son.
Gal 4:5 That he might redeem them who were under the law: that we might receive the ADOPTION of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God hath sent the SPIRIT OF HIS SON into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father.1Pe 4:14 If you be reproached for the name of Christ, you shall be blessed: for that WHICH IS OF THE HONOUR, GLORY AND POWER OF GOD, and that WHICH IS HIS SPIRIT resteth upon you.
Eph 1:5 Who hath predestinated us unto the ADOPTION of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will:
Eph 1:6 Unto the praise of the GLORY OF HIS GRACE, in which he hath graced us, IN HIS BELOVED SON.It is by the Fathers charity the Sons grace and the communication of the Holy Spirit we can become adopted Sons of God.
1Jo 1:2 FOR THE LIFE WAS MANIFESTED: and we have seen and do bear witness and declare unto you the life eternal, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER and hath appeared to us.
Without the true Son we are not Sons this is why we are called adopted Sons.
True earthly Sons don’t rely on other Sons to make them Sons…. We have to rely on Jesus because we haven’t got the Nature/Essence of the Father, we are Sons only in the True Son.1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony that God hath given to us eternal life. AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life. HE THAT HATH NOT THE SON HATH NOT LIFE.
1Jo 5:13 These things I write to you that you may know that you have eternal life: you who BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come. And he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God and may be in his TRUE SON. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD AND LIFE ETERNAL.There is only one Son of God who can claim the true nature of the Father?
1Jo 1:5 And this is the declaration which we have heard from him and declare unto you: That GOD IS LIGHT and in him there is no darkness.
Only the Jesus is the true Son the True Nature of the Father.Joh 1:9 THAT WAS THE TRUE LIGHT, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.
Joh 1:10 HE WAS IN THE WORLD: AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM: and the world knew him not.So Jesus the Son of God can be true God by nature just as a true Son of Man can be true Man by nature.
I believe we need to understand earthly concepts before we can understand heavenly concepts.
Also,
Yes the Catholic Church does teach that the Trinity is one BUT not one in Solitude. A Wife and a Husband are one flesh but they are not one flesh in Solitude.
254 THE DIVINE PERSONS ARE REALLY DISTINCT FROM ONE ANOTHER. “God is one BUT NOT SOLITARY.” “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” ARE NOT SIMPLY NAMES designating modalities of the divine being, FOR THEY ARE REALLY DISTINCT FROM ONE ANOTHER: “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.” THEY ARE DISTINCT FROM ONE ANOTHER IN THEIR RELATIONS OF ORIGIN: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.” THE DIVINE UNITY IS TRIUNE.
255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: “In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance.” Indeed “everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship.” “Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.”
240 JESUS REVEALED THAT GOD IS FATHER IN AN UNHEARD-OF SENSE: HE IS FATHER NOT ONLY IN BEING CREATOR; HE IS ETERNALLY FATHER IN RELATION TO HIS ONLY SON, who is eternally Son only in relation to his Father: “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
241 For this reason the apostles confess Jesus to be the Word: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”; as “the image of the invisible God”; as the “radiance of the glory of God and the very stamp of his nature”.
God has reveal himself as alone, who alone created the heavens and alone is the Saviour. God has revealed Himself as One but one in plural terms not one in solitude.
This is why the Church claims God to be one but not in solitude. Like the Father and the Son are one but they are not one in Solitude. Just the same as the following scripture reveals.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.
Blessings in the name of Jesus.
HI SS,
So when a branch is grafted onto a vine in your opinion it is not truly part of that vine even if it functions as it should and produces fruit in season?Jesus is the vine and we are the branches.
And is not a toe truly a part of a body as much as the head of that body is?
We are in the body of Christ.
Jesus is happy to call us brothers and makes no distinction because we are adopted.
Why should you?
We still call our Father 'Abba Father' and He loves us as His sons in His Son so why should our adoption be brought up?
Do you not yet share in the nature of the Son of God? We are meant to produce fruit and that fruit is the nature of Christ,
Love, tolerance, kindness, longsuffering.and all the fruit seen in Gal 5.
If we do not yet produce in us that fruit nor share those gifts he used of the Spirit you are right, we are not yet sons as sons have the Spirit of Christ.But we should.
And we should also have God at work within us too.
Phil 2.13
” God is at work in you to will and to do”By the Spirit and by abiding in the Word we have the Father and the Son according to the promises of God.
So all the other trinity additions are only the unnecessary trappings men have added and because thay are not from the scriptures they are not from God.
t8, I am indeed a son of God, as written in the Scriptures. But the difference between Jesus and I is that He was in the beginning with God and was God. I never had that priviledge.
I do not buy into us being adopted into the family of God. That is a poor translation. I was BORN into God's family!
To call the Bible the Word of God is way more damaging and misleading that to use the word trinity. I still worship the Father, I still worship Jesus, I am still led by the Spirit.
But I do not take Bible verses, call them the Word of God and then try and make God stick to His “promises” by “believing”. This is done in so many Christian circles/churches and it makes me sick.
What is wrong with seeing Jesus as the Word of God, and understanding that faith comes from Him?
Think about this.. Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
If the Word was with God then the Word was not God as such. But then it goes on the say the Word was God. So this verse in itself shows that God (singular) is able to be more than one person.
That does not take away from God His identity or individuality.
Hi Oxy,
You say
” I still worship the Father, I still worship Jesus, I am still led by the Spirit.”So it is not a trinity God then if you do not worship the spirit??
Nick, I just do my best to know God and to live according to His desires. I have not read in Scripture where we are to worship the Spirit, neither has the Lord told me to worship the Spirit, but respect is commanded to Him (the Holy Spirit) in that forgiveness is not forthcoming if we blaspheme Him (the Holy Spirit).
Hang in there Oxy…. many here are deceived and deny the Trinity and are thus antichrist and are teaching the doctrine of demons….. perverting the Gospel as well….. God sends us to places like this to share the truth, but many are unwilling to receive the truth, instead they elevate their own minds to sit in judgment over God and His word….. it's a sad situation, and we can pray that the Lord will break through the deception… but after we share the truth and it is not received, then shake the sand from your Nikes and move on…. don't allow yourself to be duped into believing the lies which denigrate the Lord Jesus and His rightful claims to deity…. and don’t allow yourself to be taken by any blaspheming of the Holy Spirit…. Or, finally, those who would insult the Father by their denigration of His Son and the Holy Spirit His Son sent to convict sinners. For if they are not convicted, they obviously do not have the Holy Spirit who leads us into truth.
blessings
you are right about the Holy Spirit Oxy…. we must not grieve the Holy Spirit…. its kinda hard to grieve something that is not a person, but some impersonal “force” don't ya think? Perhaps too many have been watching Star Wars??? 😉 If the Holy Spirit can be lied to or grieved, common sense says that thew Holy Spirit must be a person…..
blessings
did Jesus promise to send the Holy Spirit, the Comforter? Did He lie? What got sent when He ascended?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 07 2006,23:19) Hi E,
Can you not abide in the Word and yet claim you are following the Master?
You first have to isolate a particular tradition and then examine it on it's own merits to decide whether or not it is biblical. That is to say, it is illogical to say that simply because some activity or some belief in a given body of believers or in an individual believer is a tradition, it is therefore unbiblical. That simply does not follow. Think about Nick… and remember, it's ok to admit you are wrong every now and then, there is no need for posturing and creating red herrings and straw men to try and avoid the obvious, just admit you are wrong and grow from it, it's ok… really.blessings
Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 18 2006,22:36) you are right about the Holy Spirit Oxy…. we must not grieve the Holy Spirit…. its kinda hard to grieve something that is not a person, but some impersonal “force” don't ya think? Perhaps too many have been watching Star Wars??? 😉 If the Holy Spirit can be lied to or grieved, common sense says that thew Holy Spirit must be a person….. blessings
Thanks E.Hi E,
You said
” common sense says that thew Holy Spirit must be a person…..”
Is that sudfficient evidence for you?Commonsense?
I suppose if scripture does not back you that must be all you have to fall back on.
But we really should abide in the Word of God should we not rather that speculate??Here's the evidence Nick.
Jesus said Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
If Jesus calls the Holy Spirit He, that's good enough for me.
Nick, you may have left the JW's but I don't think they have left you.
Hi Oxy,
Is that all you need to develop a doctrine God would be proud of?
What about some real evidence from scripture if you really are a true servant of the Word.
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