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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2009,05:26) Hi TT,
Why would you make an idol of our given Lord?
Why did Peter say “to Jesus Christ be the glory forever and ever?” Why did Peter say that “Jesus Christ is THE Savior?”My questions are forthright and fair are they not?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 12 2009,05:19) Quote (peace2all @ Dec. 12 2009,03:46) food for thought TT. the bible says that god almighty had no begining nor end.
the bible says that god's son who is jesus was the firstborn of creation.
does the bible speak is such ways that are twisted and mystical and hard to understand when the message is clear?
why does one have to always try to interpret scriptures when it is evadent to what is the message and idea.
the bible also uses other scriptures especially jesus continuing to tell that he and his father are not equal or the same. and that our god is his god too.
thats the great thing about god's word (scriptures) they resinate truth. a clear message when used and combined with other scriptures backing it up.
To the Jew the word “firstborn” meant “supreme.” This is how Paul applies the term in Colossians 1. Back to my original point. Why did Peter say, “to Jesus Christ be the glory forever and ever?” Why did Peter say that Jesus Christ is THE Savior?thinker
even if there was some hidden meaning within, does god then saying his son was supreme of creation? that makes no sense. becasue it didn't say he was firstborn OVER creation but OF.does he say then to you that he is supreme over what was created then?
because it sates that he through his father created, so how can he already be as you say supreme if things were not yet made? your view does not fit within the diffrerent scriptures, it doesn't hold true.
either way it doesn't imply or say anthing that he is god, and still those saying he was only first brought about through mary still would be wrong also, because he still would in fact have already been god's son, before being in the womb.
scriptures used will resinate the same meanings. they do back up each other, they will not contadict and give you multiple views.
well a good start would be becasue his ranson attoned our sins for us and gave us way for god to forgive us for our tresspasses.
Without proof, everything Jesus claimed could be just a wonderful story, but God proved that what Jesus claimed was true by raising him up to life again after his death.
Jesus’ death and resurrection not only granted us forgiveness, they also gave us eternal life.
he is our way, we need to follow his example.
God is the one who is responsible for it all, but God sent him forth to do his will and he thus became our savior our messiah. our way to follow to God.
jesus is not God almighty
TT, do believe jesus, god's son our messiah has come already or are you still awaiting his first arrival?
do you beleive that christ jesus is god's son?
when he said that he does not his own will, but only the will of his father do you agree?
peace2all said:
Quote even if there was some hidden meaning within, does god then saying his son was supreme of creation? that makes no sense. becasue it didn't say he was firstborn OVER creation but OF
P2,
First, there was no “hidden” meaning to the Jew. The firstborn had the supremacy. Paul explicitly said that Christ was firstborn that in all things that He might have the “supremacy” (NIV). So no hidden meaning. Paul came right out and said that “firstborn” means “supremacy.”Second, He is the firstborn OF all creation because “by Him were all things created.” So your “of” argument doesn't work.
Third, Paul said that He is BEFORE all things and clarifies this by saying that He is the HEAD of the body, the church. This certainly looks like Jesus is supreme “OVER” all to me.
p2:
Quote God is the one who is responsible for it all, but God sent him forth to do his will and he thus became our savior our messiah. our way to follow to God.
Jesus is our atonement for sins and He is not just “the way to follow God.”Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the “AUTHOR” of eternal salvation. The word means “source.” Christ is the SOURCE of eternal salvation. Therefore, He is God.
thinker
Quote (peace2all @ Dec. 12 2009,05:58) TT, do believe jesus, god's son our messiah has come already or are you still awaiting his first arrival? do you beleive that christ jesus is god's son?
when he said that he does not his own will, but only the will of his father do you agree?
Jesus did the will of the Father while in the days of His flesh when He was subject to the Father. He has been exalted and in His exalted state He does His own will. He saves whomsoever He chooses to save.Matthew 11:27 (New King James Version)
27 “All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”The Son revealed the Father to you according to His own will. Therefore, the Son does His own will now. You should be thanking the Son.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2009,06:42) Hi TT,
The Lord Jesus is our mediator and our advocate with God.
Jehovah was Job's advocate with God so what's your point?thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 12 2009,06:32) peace2all said: Quote even if there was some hidden meaning within, does god then saying his son was supreme of creation? that makes no sense. becasue it didn't say he was firstborn OVER creation but OF
P2,
First, there was no “hidden” meaning to the Jew. The firstborn had the supremacy. Paul explicitly said that Christ was firstborn that in all things that He might have the “supremacy” (NIV). So no hidden meaning. Paul came right out and said that “firstborn” means “supremacy.”Second, He is the firstborn OF all creation because “by Him were all things created.” So your “of” argument doesn't work.
Third, Paul said that He is BEFORE all things and clarifies this by saying that He is the HEAD of the body, the church. This certainly looks like Jesus is supreme “OVER” all to me.
p2:
Quote God is the one who is responsible for it all, but God sent him forth to do his will and he thus became our savior our messiah. our way to follow to God.
Jesus is our atonement for sins and He is not just “the way to follow God.”Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the “AUTHOR” of eternal salvation. The word means “source.” Christ is the SOURCE of eternal salvation. Therefore, He is God.
thinker
nowhere in the scriptures that talk about jesus as the firstborn of creation and he was beside god before the creation of earth, that god' through his son all were created,reference to him as it meaning supreme only and not him his son being actual the first of creation
nowhere does it emply it.
mowhere does it say hebrew meaning for firstborn is supreme.
please show me that.
you are making things up. no need to use your opinion when the answer is echoed in many scriptures about it to leave no error in you having too.
peace2all said:
Quote mowhere does it say hebrew meaning for firstborn is supreme. Included in the Hebrew idea of the word “firstborn” is “supreme.”
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Note that Paul builds upon the word “firstborn” saying that Jesus is “OVER all creation”, that He is “BEFORE all things”, that He is the “HEAD of the church”, and that He has the “SUPREMACY.”
Is this not clear as a bell? Jesus is Lord!
Note also that Paul said that all things were created by Him.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 12 2009,08:09) peace2all said: Quote mowhere does it say hebrew meaning for firstborn is supreme. Included in the Hebrew idea of the word “firstborn” is “supreme.”
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Note that Paul builds upon the word “firstborn” saying that Jesus is “OVER all creation”, that He is “BEFORE all things”, that He is the “HEAD of the church”, and that He has the “SUPREMACY.”
Is this not clear as a bell? Jesus is Lord!
Note also that Paul said that all things were created by Him.
thinker
you come up with to meaning supreme. it does not say that nor inply it.you are right he is the firstborn over/of all creation. becasue he was the firstborn and was before all.
why you need to try to interpet it into something its not.
in the hebrew language supreme does not mean firstborn nor does firstborn mean supreme.
you are adding that.
kjv – of creation
rsv 2nd edition – of creation
nwt- of creationthere are two bibles that use over creation. even so you can use over as to say before – nowwhere does it come close to meaning supreme.
which still does not imply what you say, one bible uses supreme.
ex: over all creation made, jesus is firstborn of it.
with it saying that jesus was firstborn and that all things were created through jesus for him, makes it clear and perfect sense that he came first becasue god thru jesus created all.
your not reading the scriptures for what it really says.
answers are simple and there and are not hidden twisted messages. that is why you wil lfind multiple scriptures to topics tht resinate a common message to make clear the intent of message or maning.
1. it says he was firstborn of or over all thats been made. ( he was first over/of everything thats exactly what it says.)
2. then you have a verse that says he was beside god when even before the earth and heavens we made, and god thru jesus made all with hhim and for him and he was like a master craftsman.
nowhere does it imply what you say at all.
god is not jesus, jesus is not god. the holy spirit is not them either.
nowhere does the bible state your claims.
do you not see that if you use “supreme” it doesn;t work.
jesus who is supreme over all created, god created all thru him.
either way he had to be before all to create all.
not too mention all the scriptures where jesus says that his god is outr god and that he does teh will of his father who sent him. scriptures state that he will sit at the right hand of god. etc. etc.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2009,09:08) Hi TT,
So God is an advocate for Himself??
i was going to say the same thing.yhwh
yehowah
jehovah
yahovah
yehowah
wahtever you think it is its all dang close.jehovah is just the most widely used for many centuries.
its not wrong or bad or taboo.
the translation from old to the modern day wnglish are very very close
proof was made in the 1950 when the dead seascroll was found and it was written 200 years befoe christ(book of isaiah) and the oldest one to date we had was written 1000 years after christs birth and they were practically the same except for a few minor pronunciations.
so the translations are very accurate and i believe that the bible is pretty well presurved. even if a few small pronunciation errors exsist it would not taint it.
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