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The fact that Jehovah and Jesus are called savior, god, lord, king, etc, proves nothing IN ITSELF, since many others are called these things.
One question:
Is this reasoning sound?This topic is a continuation from this thread:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….5;st=80The word “god” title confusion trick:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….l=trickThe word “savior” title confusion trick:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….l=trickThe words “first and last” title confusion trick:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….l=trickQuote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,19:07) The fact that Jehovah and Jesus are called savior, god, lord, king, etc, proves nothing IN ITSELF, since many others are called these things. One question:
Is this reasoning sound?Quote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,18:34) The fact that Jehovah and Jesus are called savior, god, lord, king, etc, proves nothing IN ITSELF, since many others are called these things.
DavidWhy are you being selective here?
It can easily be said by your logic that since many are called savior, god, lord, king, etc that would mean that it does not prove “IN ITSELF” that the Father is any of those things!
Is that what you believe?
Your logic is flawed because Jesus is called “The Savour” and not just “a Savour”.
Not by proxy David! Yet YHWH says he alone is “The Savour”.
Why do you keep creating these duplicate threads? That only creates confusion!
WJ
It can easily be said by your logic that since many are called savior, god, lord, king, etc that would mean that it does not prove “IN ITSELF” that the Father is any of those things!–Worshiping Jesus.
Thank you, WJ.
So, it proves nothing by itself.
Quote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,19:14) It can easily be said by your logic that since many are called savior, god, lord, king, etc that would mean that it does not prove “IN ITSELF” that the Father is any of those things!–Worshiping Jesus. Thank you, WJ.
So, it proves nothing by itself.
DavidThank you for admitting that when the scriptures says Jehovah is the only Savour that you believe that it does not prove that he is since others are called Savours!
WJ
WJ, I don't remember saying that. What I said, which you agreed with was:
The fact that Jehovah and Jesus are called savior, god, lord, king, etc, proves nothing IN ITSELF, since many others are called these things.
Since many others are called saviors, gods, kings, lords, etc, etc, etc, this fact in itself proves that we cannot just make the claim that Jesus and Jehovah are the same substance (a trinity) because they are called by the same word.
I'm simply saying that THIS IN ITSELF PROVES NOTHING. Yet, some seem to think it does.Quote Thank you for admitting that when the scriptures says Jehovah is the only Savour that you believe that it does not prove that he is since others are called Savours! I believe that he is the “only” savior IN A CERTAIN SENSE,* since logically, the Bible would contradict itself to believe that he was truly the only one who could or would ever be called savior….or god, or king, or lord, etc.
Since we know for a fact that others (besides Jehovah and Jesus) are called these things, then simply being called these things proves nothing, in and of itself!So, why continually make the argument that it does?
*When the Bible says that Jehovah alone is holy (yet we know others–the anointed, Israel, etc are called “holy”) I take that to mean that he is the most holy, the ultimate in holiness, the very definition and standard of holy.
To believe otherwise, to believe that he alone can ever be called or should be called holy is to again, contradict other parts of the Bible.So, logically, what am I to do? Either the Bible contradicts itself, or we can understand Jehovah's holiness in a reasonable and RELATIVE way–that he is the ultimate in holiness, hence, it could be and is said “you alone are holy.” (Rev 15:4, NIV)
Yet, so many others are called “holy.”
What do you make of this WJ? Is it a contradiction?
How do you reconcile this WJ?
Quote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,19:39)
WJ, I don't remember saying that. What I said, which you agreed with was:The fact that Jehovah and Jesus are called savior, god, lord, king, etc, proves nothing IN ITSELF, since many others are called these things.
No David, I did not agree with you.. I said….Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 02 2010,19:12) It can easily be said “BY YOUR LOGIC” that since many are called savior, god, lord, king, etc that would mean that it does not prove “IN ITSELF” that the Father is any of those things!
Then you said…Quote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,19:14) Thank you, WJ. So, it proves nothing by itself.
I do not agree with you at all! I think when YHWH says he is the “Only Savior” then he means what he says and it “IN ITSELF” proves that he is “The Only Savour”.All other Saviors in scriptures are by “Proxy”!
Quote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,19:39)
Since many others are called saviors, gods, kings, lords, etc, etc, etc, this fact in itself proves that we cannot just make the claim that Jesus and Jehovah are the same substance (a trinity) because they are called by the same word.
Then you have the conundrum David. For Jehovah says…11 I—I am Jehovah, and “BESIDES ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR”. Isa. 43:11 NWT
“But I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt, and there was no God except me that you used to know; “AND THERE WAS NO SAVIOR BUT I”.. Hosea 13:4 NWT
Compare…
and they began to say to the woman: “We do not believe any longer on account of your talk; for we have heard for ourselves and we know that this man is for a certainty “THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD”. John 4:42 NWT
while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of “the Savior of us, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave himself for us” that he might deliver us from every sort of lawlessness and “cleanse for himself a people peculiarly his own“, zealous for fine works. Tit 2:13, 14 NWT
Here Jesus is called “The Savior” and the one that purifies us and cleanses us “FOR HIMSELF A PEOPLE”!
Jesus is not “a Savior” by proxy! He is the Savior and saved us with his own blood! Scriptures speak of no other Savior as such for all others were by proxy!
This leaves you with the conundrum David for you believe Jesus was just “a Savior” like the rest. No other is called “The Savior” but the Father and Jesus. So yes this does prove that Jesus is God since scripturally Jehovah says that he is the “Only Savior”!
So in its context Titus 2:13, 14 should read…
while we wait for the blessed hope–“the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ”, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and “to purify FOR HIMSELF a people that are HIS VERY OWN“, eager to do what is good.
Quote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,19:39)
I'm simply saying that THIS IN ITSELF PROVES NOTHING. Yet, some seem to think it does.
So again you are confessing that when Jehovah says…11 I—I am Jehovah, and “BESIDES ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR”. Isa. 43:11 NWT
…That he does not mean that there is no savior besides him, but he must mean something else? You are making the Word of God of none effect!
So I repeat…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 02 2010,19:17)
Thank you for admitting that when the scriptures says Jehovah is the only Savour that you believe that it does not prove that he is since others are called Saviors!Quote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,19:39)
I believe that he is the “only” savior IN A CERTAIN SENSE,* since logically, the Bible would contradict itself to believe that he was truly the only one who could or would ever be called savior….or god, or king, or lord, etc.
So Jehovah can be the “Only Savior” in a certain sense? David it is becoming more and more obvious that you are the one playing “title confusion tricks”. With your logic the Bible does contradict!Quote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,19:39)
Since we know for a fact that others (besides Jehovah and Jesus) are called these things, then simply being called these things proves nothing, in and of itself!
That is totally circular reasoning for you would not say that when the scriptures call Jehovah savior, god, lord, king, etc, that that is not proof “IN ITSELF” that Jehovah is not those things would you? Maybe you would, which would mean you are playing “Title confusion tricks” on the scriptures instead of believing what they say.Quote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,19:39)
So, why continually make the argument that it does?
Because when the scriptures say that Jehovah is the “Only Savior” then that is proof “IN ITSELF” that he is. But I guess it does not mean that to you?
Quote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,19:39)
When the Bible says that Jehovah alone is holy (yet we know others–the anointed, Israel, etc are called “holy”) I take that to mean that he is the most holy, the ultimate in holiness, the very definition and standard of holy.
Right, so now you compare a qu
ality of God to “the agency of God” i.e. “The Savior”!But there are many scriptures that says “God alone is the Savior” or “God alone is God” and there is none other!
You are using the same logic here that you use when you say that “god” means “a mighty one”, therefore everyone that is mighty is a god. So everything that is holy must be a god also right David?
Quote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,19:39)
To believe otherwise, to believe that he alone can ever be called or should be called holy is to again, contradict other parts of the Bible.
The contradictions are with you!Quote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,19:39)
So, logically, what am I to do? Either the Bible contradicts itself, or we can understand Jehovah's holiness in a reasonable and RELATIVE way–that he is the ultimate in holiness, hence, it could be and is said “you alone are holy.” (Rev 15:4, NIV) Yet, so many others are called “holy.”
The Bible only contradicts your theology because you choose to reject that Jesus is One with Jehovah as “The Savior” and “The True God”!Quote (david @ Mar. 02 2010,19:39)
What do you make of this WJ? Is it a contradiction?How do you reconcile this WJ?
To you it is, but to me and every Trinitarian it is not a contradiction.WJ
WorshippingJesus said to david:
Quote Here Jesus is called “The Savior” and the one that purifies us and cleanses us “FOR HIMSELF A PEOPLE”! Jesus is not “a Savior” by proxy! He is the Savior and saved us with his own blood! Scriptures speak of no other Savior as such for all others were by proxy!
Amen WJ! The apostle John said that “He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 2:2). He said also that the Father sent the Son, the Savior of the world (4:14).
thinker
Quote *When the Bible says that Jehovah alone is holy (yet we know others–the anointed, Israel, etc are called “holy”) I take that to mean that he is the most holy, the ultimate in holiness, the very definition and standard of holy.
To believe otherwise, to believe that he alone can ever be called or should be called holy is to again, contradict other parts of the Bible.–me
Sidebar: WJ, (or thinker):
The Bible says only God is holy.
But it also says we are to be holy.If only God is holy, either God is asking something of us that is impossible, or we are God (part of the trinity).
Is this logic sound? How does it differ from your logic?
Speaking of God, the Bible says:
For you alone are holy.
For you alone are holy.
For you alone are holy.
For you alone are holy.
You are the only holy one,
for thou only art holy:
for you only are holy
for thou only art holy;
etc.–Rev 15:41 Peter 1:16: “You must be holy, because I am holy.”
WJ, are you holy? Are you God? The Bible says you must be holy WJ. What are you going to do?
I truly do not see how your head does not explode when you compare these two scriptures.
Speaking of God, the Bible says: you alone are holy.
But it also says that you are to be holy, and is always speaking of the holy ones.
WJ. Is this a contradiction and if not, how would you explain it. In “relative” terms?
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