Title confusion trick

[david]

I suppose I shall have to create a second “savior” thread, as this one has fallen apart. Oh well.

[david]

I've created a new thread on the subject of both God and Jesus being called Savior. If you wish to discuss that, go to that thread. If you wish to discuss other things, continue here.

[david]

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=2912;hl=title

That is a link to the new thread I started on this subject.

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2009,16:45)

I've created a new thread on the subject of both God and Jesus being called Savior.  If you wish to discuss that, go to that thread.  If you wish to discuss other things, continue here.

Hi David,

Glad to see your back.

Jesus’ authentic Name [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă has a direct connection to GOD’s name [יה]
in that YÄ is the first part of Jesus’ “REAL” name. GOD’s name is not vocalized
in the English translation of the name Jesus and therefore misses the precise exactness
and direct authentic connection to God’s Hebrew name [יה] YÄ. Jesus’ Name in Hebrew
יהשוע means: (“YÄ is salvation” [יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע]) the salvation of “GOD the Father”=117.
[יהשוע] “Jesus” REAL name authentically establishes [יהוה] “JEHOVAH” as the highest Name. (Psalm 83:18)

(Phil. 2:9,11: Wherefore God has highly exalted [Jesus] giving Him a name
which is above every name, to the glory of [GOD The Father=117].) Neither is there salvation
in any other name: for there is no other name given among men (יהשוע), whereby we must be
saved. (Acts 4:12) People speaking fluent Hebrew know that in essence, [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă
means: “YÄ is Savior”. The Name of [GOD=26] is [“יהוה”=26] spoken as [YÄ=26]; and “YÄ-hä-vā”!

“The Savior”=117 is “GOD The Father”=117, (117=”יהוה האלהים” YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL- ō-Hêêm)!
And He is Savior to all who walk the ground! “JEHOVAH GOD”; and there is ‘NO’ other! (Isaiah 43:11)

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[david]

Quote

Neither is there salvation in any other name: for there is no other name given among men (יהשוע), whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

Ed, what did you think of the comments in the original post concerning this?

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Dec. 24 2009,19:30)

Quote Neither is there salvation in any other name: for there is no other name given among men (יהשוע), whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12) Ed, what did you think of the comments in the original post concerning this?

Hi David,

I see your point well, but those who believe in 'a trinity' always point to Rev.17:14, what's your take on that verse?

God bless
Ed J

[david]

Not sure what you mean. ARe you referring to Jesus being called “king of kings”?

We are told that Jesus spiritual brothers (the anointed) would rule as kings with Jesus.

Jesus is: ““The Ruler of the kings of the earth.” (rev 1:4)

Read REv 5:10. Those who make up the kingdom (governement) become “kings” over the earth.
Jesus is of course king over them.
Also see Rev 20:4,6; 22:5, 21:24

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Dec. 24 2009,19:48)

Not sure what you mean.  ARe you referring to Jesus being called “king of kings”? We are told that Jesus spiritual brothers (the anointed) would rule as kings with Jesus.   Jesus is: ““The Ruler of the kings of the earth.” (rev 1:4) Read REv 5:10.  Those who make up the kingdom (governement) become “kings” over the earth. Jesus is of course king over them. Also see Rev 20:4,6; 22:5, 21:24

Hi David,

I forgot you use the N.W.T.; here is how the AKJV words this verse…

Rev.17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them:
for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

God bless
Ed J

[942767]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 21 2009,15:11)

Quote (david @ Dec. 21 2009,13:40) Taken from: http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009….ck.html Is. 43:11 – “I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.” – ASV. Luke 2:11 – “for there is born to you this day in the city of David a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord.” – ASV. Some trinitarians will quote the two scriptures above as “proof” that Jesus is Jehovah. After all, not only do both Jesus and Jehovah have the title “Saviour,” but Jehovah says he is the only saviour! But is “saviour” (yasha in Hebrew, soter in NT Greek) really an exclusive title for Jehovah, or can it properly be applied to other individuals? If Jehovah is insisting that no one but himself is ever to be called “saviour,” then He and His inspired Bible writers would never call anyone else by that exclusive title. So, when we read that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are both called “saviour” (same Hebrew word translated “saviour” at Is. 43:11 is translated “deliverer” in KJV – compare ASV), should we really believe they are both Jehovah because “besides [Jehovah] there is no saviour”? If so, we have a new “trinity”: The Father, Ehud, and Othniel!! “Mystery” religionists and “plural-oneness God” devotees should be interested in Obadiah 21 also. There they can “prove” that all those saviours are Jehovah. Furthermore, they might “prove” that those saviours are Christians who, therefore, will all be Jehovah! For example, if Jehovah alone is saviour, and Jesus is saviour because he saves (Greek: sosei – Matt. 1:21 and soso – John 12:47) men, then Jesus “must” be God. By this same reasoning, since some followers of Jesus also save (Greek: sosei – James 5:20; 1 Tim. 4:16 and soso – 1 Cor. 9:22) men, then they (the saviours of Obadiah 21?) too, must be God! (This is very similar to the “Forgiveness” silliness that is sometimes used to “prove” the trinity. – “Only God can forgive sins,” say certain trinitarians, “and Jesus forgave sin, Mark 2:7. Therefore, Jesus must be God!” So, John 20:20-23 “proves” that the disciples also must be God, right?) We realize that Jehovah, as the only Almighty and Most High God, is the ultimate Saviour and the only origin of salvation, and, in that sense, and by comparison, there are no others. However, it is obvious that other individuals can be, and are, saviours in a subordinate sense, if Jehovah so wills it. That means, then, that Jehovah is the only ultimate saviour (or the only ultimate source of salvation), and, in the cases of Ehud and Othniel, for example, Jehovah was saviour through them. So when we see statements like: “…. Jesus is the savior (gospel), it says that there is no savior other than Jehovah which ties in with Peter saying in Acts 4:10-12 that there is no savior but Jesus”, we know what is intended: There have been many saviors or deliverers (yasha – Hebrew, and soter – NT Greek) found in scripture who saved others through appointment by or commandment of God. But there is only one most high source of salvation (or only one savior or deliverer [yasha / soter] in the highest sense of the word) – Jehovah, the Father. Acts 4:10-12 actually says about Jesus, “whom God raised from the dead”: (12) “There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by [or `through'] which we may be saved.” “For of all names in the world given to men, this is the only one by which we can be saved.” – JB & NJB. “There is salvation in no one else! Under all heaven there is no other name for men to call upon to save them.” – LB. Yes Jesus is our savior and king, but he is our only savior in the sense of being the only one (excluding God in heaven the source of that salvation who sent him for this purpose) who gave us the opportunity for eternal salvation. This is explained in John 3:17: “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” – NRSV. God is the source of salvation, Jesus was the instrument. (It's like scripture telling us that Jehovah gave the Israelites the Law and then also saying Moses gave the Israelites the law. They were both the Lawgiver, but in different senses: Jehovah was the source, and Moses was the instrument. Jehovah gave the law to Israel through Moses. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology also tells us: “Because God is the initiator [source] of salvation, both he and Christ are called soter, saviour …” – p. 78, Vol. 2, Zondervan, 1986. The Notice what the very trinitarian NIVSB has to say in its introduction to the book of Judges: “Title – The title [Judges] describes the leaders Israel had from the time of the elders who outlived Joshua until the time of the monarchy. Their principal purpose is best expressed in 2:16: `Then the LORD [Jehovah] raised up judges who saved them out of the hands of … raiders.' Since it was God who permitted the oppression and raised up deliverers [saviors], he himself was Israel's ultimate Judge and Deliverer [Savior].”[1] This is well-illustrated at Judges 6:14 where Jehovah commands Gideon to save Israel. But later, the saviour, Gideon, says it is Jehovah who is saving Israel (Judges 6:37). Those who look for great “mysteries” in every Bible statement and those who look for revelations of a multiple-persons-in-one God could well take these scriptures to “prove” Gideon is Jehovah. But it should be obvious to any objective student that Jehovah saved Israel through Gideon! (See discussion of “through” in the study paper on “Beginning, Wisdom, and Firstborn.”) With that understanding in mind look at Jude 25. (Unfortunately this verse is one of the thousands which were rendered incorrectly by the King James translators in 1611.) Modern translators correctly render this verse: “To the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ [compare John 3:17]” – RSV. Also see The Jerusalem Bible. (Notice the careful distinction at Jude 25 between “the only God” and “Jesus Christ our Lord” – compare John 17:1, 3.) It might be worthwhile to examine Heb. 5:7 also – “Jesus offered up prayers … unto Him that was able to save him.” It is clear that, as Ehud, Othniel, and Gideon were saviors because Jehovah was providing salvation through them, so Jesus, in a much larger sense, is also savior because Jehovah (“the only God”) has provided salvation through him! – Compare 1 Thess. 5:9; 1 Peter 2:2 (modern translations); Rev. 7:10. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology also tells us: “Because God is the initiator [source] of salvation, both he and Christ are called soter, saviour …” – p. 78, Vol. 2, Zondervan, 1986. The It might also be interesting to examine the meaning of Jesus' personal name. Like the names “Joshua” and “Isaiah,” Jesus' name literally means “Jehovah is salvation”! David…….this is a good post to clarify the term savior, Good Job. gene

Amen. David, good job.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[peace2all]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 24 2009,19:52)

Quote (david @ Dec. 24 2009,19:48) Not sure what you mean.  ARe you referring to Jesus being called “king of kings”? We are told that Jesus spiritual brothers (the anointed) would rule as kings with Jesus.   Jesus is: ““The Ruler of the kings of the earth.” (rev 1:4) Read REv 5:10.  Those who make up the kingdom (governement) become “kings” over the earth. Jesus is of course king over them. Also see Rev 20:4,6; 22:5, 21:24 Hi David, I forgot you use the N.W.T.; here is how the AKJV words this verse… Rev.17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. God bless Ed J

my parents said that they used to use the kjv for a long time before the nwt was made for easier english translation.

they don't care what bible you use if they come to talk to you. they know that the message is still clear when reading from the bible.

those two scriptures from the bibles don't say anything different.

jesus is King of kings and others will be with him.

so what

[david]

eD. still not sure why you're asking me.

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,06:57)

eD.  still not sure why you're asking me.

Hi David,

Those who believe in 'a trinity' point to Rev.17:14;
I have highlighted the specific part of this verse I wish you to address.

Rev.17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them:
for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called,
and chosen, and faithful.

Trinitarians say this verse in particular refers to Jesus as being “God”.

Maybe you are not purposely dodging this question, but it seems to me you are?
I would like you to explain to the “Trinitarians” here on the forum,
why you would say this does not mean that Jesus is “God”.

Now do you now understand my question?
Have I now made the question simple enough for you to finally understand it?

eD j

[david]

Hi Ed.
First, I don't think trinitarians use this verse too much, as you say, to prove that Jesus is God Almighty. The reason they don't use it, is because it in no way proves that.
I guess your question, apparently, is stating that being called “Lord of Lords” somehow equates to being “God.”
I think it is up to those that believe this to prove it and not the other way around. I believe simply that it means he is “Lord” (Master) of other Lords (Masters.). He is master or above other lords. Of course, this would mean he is of high station, but does not demand that he be God.

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Jan. 30 2010,17:25)

Hi Ed.   First, I don't think trinitarians use this verse too much, as you say, to prove that Jesus is God Almighty.  The reason they don't use it, is because it in no way proves that. I guess your question, apparently, is stating that being called “Lord of Lords” somehow equates to being “God.” I think it is up to those that believe this to prove it and not the other way around.  I believe simply that it means he is “Lord” (Master) of other Lords (Masters.).  He is master or above other lords.  Of course, this would mean he is of high station, but does not demand that he be God.

Hi David,

Thanks for your view.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

hi
it just stated his status to show his power that he recieved from his father to judge the nations and there kings,

this is why he is called KING OF KINGS OR LORD OF LORDS ,IT IS HIS DOMONIUM OVER ALL WHAT IS CALLED ON EARTH KING OR LORD, and he will judge them.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (david @ Dec. 21 2009,13:40)

Taken from: http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009….ck.html Is. 43:11 – “I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.” – ASV. Luke 2:11 – “for there is born to you this day in the city of David a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord.” – ASV. Some trinitarians will quote the two scriptures above as “proof” that Jesus is Jehovah. After all, not only do both Jesus and Jehovah have the title “Saviour,” but Jehovah says he is the only saviour! But is “saviour” (yasha in Hebrew, soter in NT Greek) really an exclusive title for Jehovah, or can it properly be applied to other individuals? If Jehovah is insisting that no one but himself is ever to be called “saviour,” then He and His inspired Bible writers would never call anyone else by that exclusive title. So, when we read that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are both called “saviour” (same Hebrew word translated “saviour” at Is. 43:11 is translated “deliverer” in KJV – compare ASV), should we really believe they are both Jehovah because “besides [Jehovah] there is no saviour”? If so, we have a new “trinity”: The Father, Ehud, and Othniel!! “Mystery” religionists and “plural-oneness God” devotees should be interested in Obadiah 21 also. There they can “prove” that all those saviours are Jehovah. Furthermore, they might “prove” that those saviours are Christians who, therefore, will all be Jehovah! For example, if Jehovah alone is saviour, and Jesus is saviour because he saves (Greek: sosei – Matt. 1:21 and soso – John 12:47) men, then Jesus “must” be God. By this same reasoning, since some followers of Jesus also save (Greek: sosei – James 5:20; 1 Tim. 4:16 and soso – 1 Cor. 9:22) men, then they (the saviours of Obadiah 21?) too, must be God! (This is very similar to the “Forgiveness” silliness that is sometimes used to “prove” the trinity. – “Only God can forgive sins,” say certain trinitarians, “and Jesus forgave sin, Mark 2:7. Therefore, Jesus must be God!” So, John 20:20-23 “proves” that the disciples also must be God, right?) We realize that Jehovah, as the only Almighty and Most High God, is the ultimate Saviour and the only origin of salvation, and, in that sense, and by comparison, there are no others. However, it is obvious that other individuals can be, and are, saviours in a subordinate sense, if Jehovah so wills it. That means, then, that Jehovah is the only ultimate saviour (or the only ultimate source of salvation), and, in the cases of Ehud and Othniel, for example, Jehovah was saviour through them. So when we see statements like: “…. Jesus is the savior (gospel), it says that there is no savior other than Jehovah which ties in with Peter saying in Acts 4:10-12 that there is no savior but Jesus”, we know what is intended: There have been many saviors or deliverers (yasha – Hebrew, and soter – NT Greek) found in scripture who saved others through appointment by or commandment of God. But there is only one most high source of salvation (or only one savior or deliverer [yasha / soter] in the highest sense of the word) – Jehovah, the Father. Acts 4:10-12 actually says about Jesus, “whom God raised from the dead”: (12) “There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by [or `through'] which we may be saved.” “For of all names in the world given to men, this is the only one by which we can be saved.” – JB & NJB. “There is salvation in no one else! Under all heaven there is no other name for men to call upon to save them.” – LB. Yes Jesus is our savior and king, but he is our only savior in the sense of being the only one (excluding God in heaven the source of that salvation who sent him for this purpose) who gave us the opportunity for eternal salvation. This is explained in John 3:17: “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” – NRSV. God is the source of salvation, Jesus was the instrument. (It's like scripture telling us that Jehovah gave the Israelites the Law and then also saying Moses gave the Israelites the law. They were both the Lawgiver, but in different senses: Jehovah was the source, and Moses was the instrument. Jehovah gave the law to Israel through Moses. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology also tells us: “Because God is the initiator [source] of salvation, both he and Christ are called soter, saviour …” – p. 78, Vol. 2, Zondervan, 1986. The Notice what the very trinitarian NIVSB has to say in its introduction to the book of Judges: “Title – The title [Judges] describes the leaders Israel had from the time of the elders who outlived Joshua until the time of the monarchy. Their principal purpose is best expressed in 2:16: `Then the LORD [Jehovah] raised up judges who saved them out of the hands of … raiders.' Since it was God who permitted the oppression and raised up deliverers [saviors], he himself was Israel's ultimate Judge and Deliverer [Savior].”[1] This is well-illustrated at Judges 6:14 where Jehovah commands Gideon to save Israel. But later, the saviour, Gideon, says it is Jehovah who is saving Israel (Judges 6:37). Those who look for great “mysteries” in every Bible statement and those who look for revelations of a multiple-persons-in-one God could well take these scriptures to “prove” Gideon is Jehovah. But it should be obvious to any objective student that Jehovah saved Israel through Gideon! (See discussion of “through” in the study paper on “Beginning, Wisdom, and Firstborn.”) With that understanding in mind look at Jude 25. (Unfortunately this verse is one of the thousands which were rendered incorrectly by the King James translators in 1611.) Modern translators correctly render this verse: “To the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ [compare John 3:17]” – RSV. Also see The Jerusalem Bible. (Notice the careful distinction at Jude 25 between “the only God” and “Jesus Christ our Lord” – compare John 17:1, 3.) It might be worthwhile to examine Heb. 5:7 also – “Jesus offered up prayers … unto Him that was able to save him.” It is clear that, as Ehud, Othniel, and Gideon were saviors because Jehovah was providing salvation through them, so Jesus, in a much larger sense, is also savior because Jehovah (“the only God”) has provided salvation through him! – Compare 1 Thess. 5:9; 1 Peter 2:2 (modern translations); Rev. 7:10. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology also tells us: “Because God is the initiator [source] of salvation, both he and Christ are called soter, saviour …” – p. 78, Vol. 2, Zondervan, 1986. The It might also be interesting to examine the meaning of Jesus' personal name. Like the names “Joshua” and “Isaiah,” Jesus' name literally means “Jehovah is salvation”!

david

Excellent post; but you see, trinitarian's don't use logic or common sense, its a matter of pride. To change, you have to first admit, you were wrong all these years; and you might run into people that would say, “see, I told you so.”
Paul says,

2Cr 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

To understand the word of God you need his Holy Spirit.

1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the
deep things of God.

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

To receive God's Holy Spirit you first have to admit, your wrong, and God' is right.

1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Thank you david

Georg

[JustAskin]

David, Terrarica,

I have come to join your united front.

David, brilliant post, well explained robust, Spirit filled.

Terra, well supported, good backup.

[JustAskin]

David, I have posted on this issue in another thread and it was a virtual reflection of what you have posted.

Jehovah God is 'Saviour' as the primary, initiating entity.

He is Saviour for all in his Kingdom.

He passed 'all things' to his conquerer Son, which obviously means his kingdom.

Therefore, Jesus is now 'Saviour' over 'his' kingdom.

For this same reason is Jesus is also 'King of kings and Lord of lords' where previuosly only God was called 'King of kings and Lord of lords'.

Additionally, I put it to WJ that those who are called by God and Spirit filled can also become 'saviours' when they draw man to God through the Holy Spirit and the Testament of Jesus Christ.

[terraricca]

hi all

i have a question

what you mean by;when they draw man to God through the Holy Spirit and the Testament of Jesus Christ.

just explain me the mecanics of it ,and how is the holyspirit active in this

[JustAskin]

Terra,

There is a simple answer and there is a complex answer.

The simple answer is this:

There are those destined from the beginning to be saved – chosen by God to be servants of Christ;

There are those destined from the beginning who will not be saved – given up by God to be servants of Satan;

The vast majority are free to choose their destiny.

This latter group is testified to by those in the other two groups and they will accept or renounce the testimony of either as they will.

The testimony of Christ, backed by the Holy Spirit, is the testimony of Truth concerning God Almighty and the HIS plan for HIS Son, Jesus Christ, mankind and then rest of his creation.

Those who believe in ('drawn to')Jesus Christ and his testament, or 'visited' by the Holy Spirit by way of a revelation, are given limited amounts of the Holy Spirit and if they continue in the Spirit then they are saved to the glory of God – what is termed 'to die [believing] in Christ'.

Terra, my brother, are you about to ask about 'free will'?

[Author]

Posts