Title confusion trick (second try)

Participant

that's a good idea t8. I get so frustrated by the completely unrelated comments, that I just give up.

As far as stipulating rules, people don't listen.

January 28, 2010 at 7:11 am#174030

Participant

I'm not sure “thinker” ever addressed any of the points I made. He went on some tangent about sharps rule (unrelated) and I think he was confused by the fact that I created 3 threads called “title confusion trick.” He discussed that for a while.

Did he ever answer any of my questions? Odd. I don't think he did. I wonder why.

January 28, 2010 at 8:57 am#174040

Proclaimer

Participant

The good thing about a debate is that an opponent has nowhere to hide which is easy to do in a lengthy topic.
If they concede, then that means you are either right or your opponent doesn't have a case regarding their stance.

January 28, 2010 at 9:00 am#174042

Proclaimer

Participant

Oh yeah. I should mention that if you decide to have no one else post in a debate, then the moderators will delete any unwanted posts that may be made. You only need to report the post to a moderator as you do with spam.

January 30, 2010 at 6:03 am#174462

Participant

Interesting. I've never actually technically debated anyone before.

February 11, 2010 at 3:01 am#177069

Participant

Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (See also Acts 13:23.)

February 19, 2010 at 3:15 pm#179193

glad tidings

Participant

t8 & David,

Perhaps you guys would be interested in hearing the debates (there's two prominent ones) on the website: http://www.christianmonotheism.com I find Sean Finnegan's debates are really well done and very insightful.

Blessings,

Patrick

February 19, 2010 at 3:21 pm#179194

Participant

Quote (glad tidings @ Feb. 19 2010,10:15)

t8 & David,

Perhaps you guys would be interested in hearing the debates (there's two prominent ones) on the website: www.christianmonotheism.com I find Sean Finnegan's debates are really well done and very insightful.

Blessings,

Patrick

t8 and David wouldn't agree with the first few lines of the sight.

t8 and David both believe in Jesus preexistence and not that Jesus beginning was being begotten in the womb of Mary!

February 19, 2010 at 3:28 pm#179195

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 26 2009,20:18)

Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,07:02)

Quote

Christ's title as Savior implies that He is Divine.

–thinker, “title confusion trick, god”

Now, thinker only believes that being called “savior” IMPLIES that someone is divine.
Before, he was asking how it is possible that someone be called “savior” and not be divine.

THINKER, Are the others who are called savior also implied to be divine?

Come on David! Be honest man! You said on the Sharp's Rule thread that you started a thread called “Confusion Trick Savior which you clearly did not. You promised that my question would be answered in that thread. My question was this: Explain how Christ could be Savior without being God?

Your OP in that thread was not about Christ's title as Savior but about the way the word “god” applies to Him. You didn't even mention Christ's title as Savior and you certainly did not answer my question. I believe you were being slick and evasive about it.

I did not say that being Savior implies that someone is divine. I said that Christ's being the Savior implies that He is divine.

Titus 2 says that it was Christ who redeemed us that HE might purify for HIMSELF a people for HIS OWN POSSESSION. This means that if you are a christian then you belong to HIM. This implies divinity dude!

So let's look at Sharp's rule along with the context:

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

It says that HE HIMSELF redeems us and makes us a pure people for HIS OWN POSSESSION. Sharp's rule stands!

Furthermore, your treatment of the word “god” was inconsistent with your own beliefs of the use of the word in John 1:1. You cut n pasted commentary from trinitarians who do not apply the “rulers” meaning in John 1:1. Neither do the JW's apply that meaning in John 1:1.

“I – I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11 NWT). Jesus Christ is the Savior. Therefore, He is Jehovah.

thinker

Bump for David

David says that Jack didn't answer him, but this post is an answer and it is true.

David cannot disprove sharps rule and neither can he refute Jacks point about Jesus purifying for HIMSELF a people for HIS OWN POSSESSION.

Blessings WJ

February 19, 2010 at 4:39 pm#179204

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2009,16:41)

Quote

David,
. . . .And show how Jesus could be the “Savior” without being God. And explain how you can have two Saviors.

This is the chief problem with anti-trinitarianism. It is not consistent. If Jesus is excluded as “God” in this verse then God is excluded as “Savior.” Yet anti-trinitarians say that God alone is Savior right?

You're too much David. Too much.

–The THINKER, “Sharp's Rule” thread

[[MESSAGE TO EVERYONE]]
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WHAT THINKER SAID ABOVE, THAT I MADE BOLD. THAT IS ALL THIS THREAD IS ABOUT. THAT'S IT. PLEASE TRY TO RESPECT MY WISHES TO STAY ON TOPIC!

THINKER, you want me to show you how Jesus could be “Savior” without being God.

You seem to think that attaching the word “savior” to someone equals them being God.

Well if that's the case, THINKER, why do you worship so many gods? Because many in the Bible are called “savior.” And according to your logic, that makes them “God.”

Titus 1:3, 4 speaks of “God our Savior,” and then of both “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”

So, both are saviors.

Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (See also Acts 13:23.)

So, how is God our savior? In that God saved us THROUGH the ransom of his Son. Is this not what the scripture above says?

At Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (mohshi?a?, rendered “savior” or “deliverer”) that is used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but that certainly did not make Othniel Jehovah, did it?

The THINKER, show me how Othniel or Ehud could be saviors and not be God? (This is your reasoning, not mine.)

***

I found the article below which addresses these points very well:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009….ck.html

Is. 43:11 – “I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.” – ASV.

Luke 2:11 – “for there is born to you this day in the city of David a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord.” – ASV.

Some trinitarians will quote the two scriptures above as “proof” that Jesus is Jehovah. After all, not only do both Jesus and Jehovah have the title “Saviour,” but Jehovah says he is the only saviour!

But is “saviour” (yasha in Hebrew, soter in NT Greek) really an exclusive title for Jehovah, or can it properly be applied to other individuals?

If Jehovah is insisting that no one but himself is ever to be called “saviour,” then He and His inspired Bible writers would never call anyone else by that exclusive title.
So, when we read that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are both called “saviour” (same Hebrew word translated “saviour” at Is. 43:11 is translated “deliverer” in KJV – compare ASV), should we really believe they are both Jehovah because “besides [Jehovah] there is no saviour”? If so, we have a new “trinity”: The Father, Ehud, and Othniel!!

“Mystery” religionists and “plural-oneness God” devotees should be interested in Obadiah 21 also. There they can “prove” that all those saviours are Jehovah. Furthermore, they might “prove” that those saviours are Christians who, therefore, will all be Jehovah! For example, if Jehovah alone is saviour, and Jesus is saviour because he saves (Greek: sosei – Matt. 1:21 and soso – John 12:47) men, then Jesus “must” be God. By this same reasoning, since some followers of Jesus also save (Greek: sosei – James 5:20; 1 Tim. 4:16 and soso – 1 Cor. 9:22) men, then they (the saviours of Obadiah 21?) too, must be God!

(This is very similar to the “Forgiveness” silliness that is sometimes used to “prove” the trinity. – “Only God can forgive sins,” say certain trinitarians, “and Jesus forgave sin, Mark 2:7. Therefore, Jesus must be God!” So, John 20:20-23 “proves” that the disciples also must be God, right?)

Also compare “you [God] alone are holy [Gr. hosios: 'loyal' in some translations] – Rev. 15:4, ASV – with the many uses of “holy” (hosios) for other persons and things – esp. Titus 1:8, ASV, (hosios).)

Or, compare the “to God, wise alone,” (Rom 11:27). Yet, many others in the Bible are called “wise.”

We realize that Jehovah, as the only Almighty and Most High God, is the ultimate Saviour and the only origin of salvation, and, in that sense, and by comparison, there are no others.

However, it is obvious that other individuals can be, and are, saviours in a subordinate sense, if Jehovah so wills it. That means, then, that Jehovah is the only ultimate saviour (or the only ultimate source of salvation), and, in the cases of Ehud and Othniel, for example, Jehovah was saviour through them.

So when we see statements like: “…. Jesus is the savior (gospel), it says that there is no savior other than Jehovah which ties in with Peter saying in Acts 4:10-12 that there is no savior but Jesus”, we know what is intended:
There have been many saviors or deliverers (yasha – Hebrew, and soter – NT Greek) found in scripture who saved others through appointment by or commandment of God. But there is only one most high source of salvation (or only one savior or deliverer [yasha / soter] in the highest sense of the word) – Jehovah, the Father.

Acts 4:10-12 actually says about Jesus, “whom God raised from the dead”: (12) “There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by [or `through'] which we may be saved.”
“For of all names in the world given to men, this is the only one by which we can be saved.” – JB & NJB.

“There is salvation in no one else! Under all heaven there is no other name for men to call upon to save them.” – LB.

Yes Jesus is our savior and king, but he is our only savior in the sense of being the only one (excluding God in heaven the source of that salvation who sent him for this purpose) who gave us the opportunity for eternal salvation. This is explained in John 3:17: “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” – NRSV.
God is the source of salvation, Jesus was the instrument.

(It's like scripture telling us that Jehovah gave the Israelites the Law and then also saying Moses gave the Israelites the law. They were both the Lawgiver, but in different senses: Jehovah was the source, and Moses was the instrument. Jehovah gave the law to Israel through Moses.

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology also tells us: “Because God is the initiator [source] of salvation, both he and Christ are called soter, saviour …” – p. 78, Vol. 2, Zondervan, 1986.

Notice what the very trinitarian NIVSB has to say in its introduction to the book of Judges:
“Title – The title [Judges] describes the leaders Israel had from the time of the elders who outlived Joshua until the time of the monarchy. Their principal purpose is best expressed in 2:16: `Then the LORD [Jehovah] raised up judges who saved them out of the hands of … raiders.' Si
nce it was God who permitted the oppression and raised up deliverers [saviors], he himself was Israel's ultimate Judge and Deliverer [Savior].”

The highly respected (trinitarian, of course) The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology also tells us: “In Jdg. 3:9, 15 'saviour' might be taken as a technical term for the judges. At the time of the judges, Yahweh raised up such 'saviours' for Israel who rescued them from their enemies (cf. 12:3). 'Then the LORD [Jehovah] raised up judges, who saved [esosen] them ….' (Jdg. 2:16). Similarly Ezra, … commented on Israel's rebellion thus: '… and according to thy great mercies thou [Jehovah] didst give them saviours who saved them [soteras kai esosas] from the hand of their enemies' (Neh. 9:27). Nevertheless, Jdg 2:18 stresses that it was Yahweh [Jehovah] who is the ultimate source of the saving: 'Whenever the LORD [Jehovah] raised up judges for them, the LORD [Jehovah] was with the judge, and he saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge…'.” – p. 218, Vol. 3, Zondervan Publ., 1986.

So, again, Jehovah raised up saviors for Israel, but in the highest sense the only savior was Jehovah himself, the ultimate source of all salvation.

This is well-illustrated at Judges 6:14 where Jehovah commands Gideon to save Israel. But later, the saviour, Gideon, says it is Jehovah who is saving Israel (Judges 6:37).

Those who look for great “mysteries” in every Bible statement and those who look for revelations of a multiple-persons-in-one God could well take these scriptures to “prove” Gideon is Jehovah. But it should be obvious to any objective student that Jehovah saved Israel through Gideon!

With that understanding in mind look at Jude 25. (Unfortunately this verse is one of the thousands which were rendered incorrectly by the King James translators in 1611.)

Modern translators correctly render this verse:
“To the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ [compare John 3:17]” – RSV. Also see The Jerusalem Bible.

(Notice the careful distinction at Jude 25 between “the only God” and “Jesus Christ our Lord” – compare John 17:1, 3.) It might be worthwhile to examine Heb. 5:7 also – “Jesus offered up prayers … unto Him that was able to save him.”

It is clear that, as Ehud, Othniel, and Gideon were saviors because Jehovah was providing salvation through them, so Jesus, in a much larger sense, is also savior because Jehovah (“the only God”) has provided salvation through him! – Compare 1 Thess. 5:9; 1 Peter 2:2 (modern translations); Rev. 7:10.

It might also be interesting to examine the meaning of Jesus' personal name. Like the names “Joshua” and “Isaiah,” Jesus' name literally means “Jehovah is salvation”!

….
PLEASE COMMENT ON THE ABOVE TOPIC ONLY!

david

Or perhaps I should have said, thinker.

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

This is Paul writing to Timothy, and in so doing, mentioned the fact that only God is immortal, that no man has seen; if Jesus was God, this verse would not be here.
In this next verse, Jesus says,

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Only the Father has immortality, and now, after his job here on earth (first phase) was finished, the Father has “given” to the son immortality.
What does immortal mean? it means, death is impossible. If Jesus was god as the Father is God, he could have never died for us.
So, who is our savior? the Father, Jesus, or both?
Sin requires our life, or simply put, death.
So how can you live again after you sin and die? only if some one removes the sin and with it the penalty of it, death. That is were Jesus comes in; but there were two things that stood in the way; Jesus was a spirit being, and spirit beings can't die, only by God's hand. God solved the problem by giving Jesus a human nature.

Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

The seed, or offspring's, of Abraham are humans, that's all that means, Jesus was all human.
Why could have no other human die for us, because we are all sinners, Jesus was not, and did not deserve to die. Jesus became sin for us by taking our sins and placing them on himself; now Jesus had to die.
When Jesus died on the cross, he was dead, just as dead as we will be when we die.
Did Jesus resurrect himself? if he did, he was not dead.
Was Jesus bodily resurrected? how is that possible? his body took on all of our sins, that is what puts us in the grave.

1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Ever wonder why dying is referred to as sleeping? because their will be an awakening from this death, the resurrection.
So, who resurrected Jesus?

Act 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:

Was Jesus raised in his human body?

2Cr 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

The conclusion of all of this is; without Jesus, willing to die for us, we would all stay in our graves, covered with our sins.
Without the Father, having the power to raise the dead, Jesus would still be in the grave, and nothing would have changed.
Jesus died for our sins, but the Father forgives us our sins for Christs sake. Does that make Jesus equal to the Father? no way, even now were he has immortality, he is no equal to the Father, and never will be.

Georg

February 19, 2010 at 4:55 pm#179208

Participant

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,11:39)

This is Paul writing to Timothy, and in so doing, mentioned the fact that only God is immortal, that no man has seen; if Jesus was God, this verse would not be here.

Georg

Well lets see, Paul wrote 1 Tim 6:16 long after Jesus Glorification!

The Greek word for “immortality” is Strong's G110 – athanasia which means;

1) undying, immortality, everlasting

Are you saying that Jesus is not “Immortal”?

Look at it without any tainted glasses, that which has never been seen is the “unapproachable light”.

Men have seen YHWH! Yet none have seen his “unapproachable light” or the fullness of his Glory.

YHWH let Moses see his backside but covered him so he would be protected from looking into his full Glory.

Moses face itself was so full of his Glory that he had to wear a veil over his face!

Jesus dwells in that light. Isn't that what this verse is saying?

Please explain how this verse is proof that Jesus is not God!

Blessings WJ

February 19, 2010 at 5:05 pm#179213

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,03:55)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,11:39)

This is Paul writing to Timothy, and in so doing, mentioned the fact that only God is immortal, that no man has seen; if Jesus was God, this verse would not be here.

Georg

Well lets see, Paul wrote 1 Tim 6:16 long after Jesus Glorification!

Are you saying that Jesus is not “Immortal”?

Blessings WJ

The subject of this debate is, who is our savior?

Yes, I believe Jesus now has immortality.

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

But he did not have it when he was here on earth, and died for us, how could he have died if he was immortal then?

Georg

February 19, 2010 at 5:09 pm#179214

Participant

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,12:05)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,03:55)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,11:39)

This is Paul writing to Timothy, and in so doing, mentioned the fact that only God is immortal, that no man has seen; if Jesus was God, this verse would not be here.

Georg

Well lets see, Paul wrote 1 Tim 6:16 long after Jesus Glorification!

Are you saying that Jesus is not “Immortal”?

Blessings WJ

The subject of this debate is, who is our savior?

Yes, I believe Jesus now has immortality.

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

But he did not have it when he was here on earth, and died for us, how could he have died if he was immortal then?

Georg

You are right about the thread being on Jesus as Savour so I will not comment any further, but look at the rest of my post1

Blessings WJ

February 19, 2010 at 5:45 pm#179224

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,03:55)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,11:39)

This is Paul writing to Timothy, and in so doing, mentioned the fact that only God is immortal, that no man has seen; if Jesus was God, this verse would not be here.

Georg

Well lets see, Paul wrote 1 Tim 6:16 long after Jesus Glorification!

The Greek word for “immortality” is Strong's G110 – athanasia which means;

1) undying, immortality, everlasting

Are you saying that Jesus is not “Immortal”?

Look at it without any tainted glasses, that which has never been seen is the “unapproachable light”.

Men have seen YHWH! Yet none have seen his “unapproachable light” or the fullness of his Glory.

YHWH let Moses see his backside but covered him so he would be protected from looking into his full Glory.

Moses face itself was so full of his Glory that he had to wear a veil over his face!

Jesus dwells in that light. Isn't that what this verse is saying?

Please explain how this verse is proof that Jesus is not God!

Blessings WJ

In Jesus' own words.

Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

And the apostle John ads to this,

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

“At any time”, to me this means, no “man” has ever seen the Father, or heard his voice, or ever will see him.

Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Do these scriptures show Jesus is in command?
Look at these scriptures, who all is god?

Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

What is Jesus telling us here?

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus always spoke of himself as the “son” “”of”” God, never referred to himself “as” God.
What ever you want to make other scriptures out to mean, can't take away what these scriptures are saying.

Georg

February 19, 2010 at 5:49 pm#179226

Participant

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,12:45)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,03:55)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,11:39)

This is Paul writing to Timothy, and in so doing, mentioned the fact that only God is immortal, that no man has seen; if Jesus was God, this verse would not be here.

Georg

Well lets see, Paul wrote 1 Tim 6:16 long after Jesus Glorification!

The Greek word for “immortality” is Strong's G110 – athanasia which means;

1) undying, immortality, everlasting

Are you saying that Jesus is not “Immortal”?

Look at it without any tainted glasses, that which has never been seen is the “unapproachable light”.

Men have seen YHWH! Yet none have seen his “unapproachable light” or the fullness of his Glory.

YHWH let Moses see his backside but covered him so he would be protected from looking into his full Glory.

Moses face itself was so full of his Glory that he had to wear a veil over his face!

Jesus dwells in that light. Isn't that what this verse is saying?

Please explain how this verse is proof that Jesus is not God!

Blessings WJ

In Jesus' own words.

And the apostle John ads to this,

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

“At any time”, to me this means, no “man” has ever seen the Father, or heard his voice, or ever will see him.

Do these scriptures show Jesus is in command?
Look at these scriptures, who all is god?

Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

What is Jesus telling us here?

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Georg

In short the scriptures you quote was by Jesus in the days of his flesh!

Jesus has “ALL authority and Power” now and reigns as Lord of Lords and King of Kings!

Blessings WJ

February 19, 2010 at 6:04 pm#179230

Participant

That's right, until;

1Cr 15:25 For he (Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Cr 15:27 For he (the Father) hath put all things under his (Jesus) feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he (the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (the Father) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Georg

February 19, 2010 at 6:17 pm#179235

KangarooJack

Participant

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 20 2010,05:04)

That's right, until;

Georg

Georg,

But the “until” does not concern you does it? You live in the “now.” Jesus is God to you NOW.

thinker

February 19, 2010 at 6:17 pm#179236