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Quote (david @ Dec. 21 2009,17:55) Out of all the title confusion trickery, it is with the word “god” that trinitarians make this argument the most. I found this article rather interesting: http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009….dy.html
Even most trinitarian scholars will admit the truth of the scriptural use of the words rendered “god,” “gods,” and “God.”
The Trinitarian-written NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985 tells us:
“In the language of the OT … rulers and judges, as deputies of the heavenly King, could be given the honorific title 'god' … or be called 'son of God'.” – footnote for Ps. 82:1.
And, in the footnote for Ps. 45:6, this same study Bible tells us: “In this psalm, which praises the [Israelite] king …, it is not unthinkable that he was called 'god' as a title of honor (cf. Isa. 9:6).”
The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, tells us:
“The reason why judges are called 'gods' in Ps. 82 is that they have the office of administering God's judgment as 'sons of the Most High'. In context of the Ps. the men in question have failed to do this…. On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the role of a true judge as a 'god' and 'son of the Most High'.” – Vol. 3, p. 187.
The popular trinitarian scholar W. E. Vine tells us:
“The word [theos, 'god' or 'God'] is used of Divinely appointed judges in Israel, as representing God in His authority, John 10:34″ – p. 491, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.
B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament says for John 10:34-36:
“Is it not written in your law. In Psa. 82. I said, Ye are gods? It was there addressed to judges. Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God? Sanctified. Set apart.”
And Barnes' Notes tells us in commenting on John 10:34, 35:
The scripture cannot be broken. See Matthew 5:19. The authority of the Scripture is final; it cannot be set aside. The meaning is,
'If, therefore, the Scripture uses the word “god” as applied to magistrates, it settles the question that it is right to apply the term to those in office and authority. If applied to them, it may be to others in similar offices. It can not, therefore, be blasphemy to use this word as applicable to a personage so much more exalted than mere magistrates as the Messiah.' –Barnes' Notes on the New Testament
Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, Eerdmans, 1978 Reprint, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation”:
“65. GOD – is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. – Exod. 7:1; 15:11; 21:6; 22:8, 9;…Ps. 8:5; 45:6; 82:1, 6; 97:7, 9…John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28….”
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Abingdon, 1974 printing,
“430. [elohim]. el-o-heem'; plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but spec. used (in the plur. thus, esp. with the art.) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: – angels, … x (very) great, judges, x mighty.” – p. 12, “Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary.”
The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1979, Hendrickson, p. 43:
Elohim: “a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power…. b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels…. c. angels Ps. 97:7…”
Angels are clearly called gods (elohim) at Ps. 8:5, 6. We know this because this passage is quoted at Heb. 2:6, 7, and there the word “angels” is used (in place of elohim in the OT) in NT Greek. The very trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., 1970, says in a footnote for Ps. 8:6 –
“The angels: in Hebrew, elohim, which is the ordinary word for 'God' or 'the gods'; hence the ancient versions generally understood the term as referring to heavenly spirits [angels].”
Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God's angels as gods include:
1. Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps…,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;
2. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew & Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;
3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;
4. Today's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;
5. Hastings' A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;
6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;
7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;
8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;
11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;
12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;
13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;
14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;
15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 & Ps. 82:6);
16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);
17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible – Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
(John 10:34-36);18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);
19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).
20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), – p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.
21. The Expositor's Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.
22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.
23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.
24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.
And, of course the highly respected and highly popular Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for “God”/”a god” about the same time the NT was written.
And the earliest Christians like Origen and others – – including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even trinitarians Athanasius and St. Augustine – – also had this understanding for “a god.” And, as we saw above, many highly respected NT scholars of this century agree. (For example, Ernst Haenchen tells us in his commentary on the Gospel of John:
“It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10 proves that. In that passage Paul depicts just such a divine being, who later became man in Jesus Christ”. – John 1, translated by R. W. Funk, 1984, pp. 109, 110, Fortress Press.)
All of this shows the scriptural understanding (as well a
s the same understanding by Christian writers of the first centuries) of “god” as applied to angels and certain men who were trying to follow God or who were representatives or ambassadors for God.Just because it sounds strange to our modern ears is no reason to ignore the facts. And no reason to take advantage of that fact by claiming that only two understandings of the words theos and elohim are possible: “God” and “false gods.”
*****
The idea that anyone called by the word “god” is either “The God” or a “false god” is a Title Confusion Trick.
Do not be fooled.
People who support this title confusion trick like to randomly through out words like “polytheism” (A SCARE TACTIC) as though that were a Bible word. The worship of other gods is certainly condemned in the Bible, no question. Jesus directed worship to his Father. We do not worship other gods.
But make no mistake…..
The Bible does use the word “god” with reference to ones who were neither “false gods” or “The God.”david
Nice one david.Thanks.
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,01:48) WJ is not going to answer my question is he? What should I think?
DavidI already have many times.
So here argue with scriptures…
…We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is no God but one“. For “even if there are so‑called gods“, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and MAKE NO MENTION OF THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NEITHER LET IT BE HEARD OUT OF THY MOUTH. Exod 23:13
Why do you insist on teaching and promoting Polytheism?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 24 2009,04:34) Quote (david @ Dec. 22 2009,18:42) But make no mistake…..
The Bible does use the word “god” with reference to ones who were neither “false gods” or “The God.”
David himself cited Wikipedia which says that the NWT contains an “incoherent polytheism.” David's statement above reflects that he is trying to shake off the “incoherent polytheism” to which he adheres. But the more he speaks about it the more incoherent he becomes.The JW's say that the Word was “a god.” At the same time they confess there is only one “true” God (the Father). So David and the JW's are forced to the conclusion that Jesus is a false god.
David has not been too competitive lately.
thinker
Your completely wrong thethinker. If you were right, then angels and judges would be false gods.Are you preaching that angels and judges are false gods, because you need to in order to justify your stance. You have no option according to your view.
Quote
If as you say, angels are not gods (Elohyim) “at all” why does the Bible use that exact term to describe them?Please answer this question directly.
WJ, I included the word “directly” because I wanted you to actually answer the question, not just hint at it, or allude to it, or pretend to answer it.
Quote Why do you insist on teaching and promoting Polytheism? –WJ
WJ, please name the other gods I worship.
If anyone is promoting Polytheism, it is you, “Worshipping Jesus.” Your very name denotes that you are polytheistic….that is, unless you don't worship the Father, as Jesus did.
hmmmm.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 05 2010,02:25) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 24 2009,04:34) Quote (david @ Dec. 22 2009,18:42) But make no mistake…..
The Bible does use the word “god” with reference to ones who were neither “false gods” or “The God.”
David himself cited Wikipedia which says that the NWT contains an “incoherent polytheism.” David's statement above reflects that he is trying to shake off the “incoherent polytheism” to which he adheres. But the more he speaks about it the more incoherent he becomes.The JW's say that the Word was “a god.” At the same time they confess there is only one “true” God (the Father). So David and the JW's are forced to the conclusion that Jesus is a false god.
David has not been too competitive lately.
thinker
Your completely wrong thethinker. If you were right, then angels and judges would be false gods.Are you preaching that angels and judges are false gods, because you need to in order to justify your stance. You have no option according to your view.
T8They are not Gods at all.
As you always say t8, “Argue with scriptures”!
…We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is no God but one“. For “even if there are so‑called gods“, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and MAKE NO MENTION OF THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NEITHER LET IT BE HEARD OUT OF THY MOUTH. Exod 23:13
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 05 2010,18:25) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 24 2009,04:34) Quote (david @ Dec. 22 2009,18:42) But make no mistake…..
The Bible does use the word “god” with reference to ones who were neither “false gods” or “The God.”
David himself cited Wikipedia which says that the NWT contains an “incoherent polytheism.” David's statement above reflects that he is trying to shake off the “incoherent polytheism” to which he adheres. But the more he speaks about it the more incoherent he becomes.The JW's say that the Word was “a god.” At the same time they confess there is only one “true” God (the Father). So David and the JW's are forced to the conclusion that Jesus is a false god.
David has not been too competitive lately.
thinker
Your completely wrong thethinker. If you were right, then angels and judges would be false gods.Are you preaching that angels and judges are false gods, because you need to in order to justify your stance. You have no option according to your view.
Yes, T8, it's a fact they are completely insanely uncomprehendingly blind to. That's why I started this thread.They refuse to speak of it, to acknowledge it. Even now, WJ is “saying” he's answering me, when he is doing nothing of the sort.
It's like they've glued bandages over their eyes, and then put a bag over their head and are reading this forum as though it were in brail ….but it's not.
Quote T8 They are not Gods at all.
So, those “inspired” Bible writers were wrong to call them that?
Is that what you are saying?
Who are we to believe? You, or them?
Which makes more sense?
Clearly, something is wrong with your logic.
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:29) Quote Why do you insist on teaching and promoting Polytheism? –WJ
WJ, please name the other gods I worship.
If anyone is promoting Polytheism, it is you, “Worshipping Jesus.” Your very name denotes that you are polytheistic….that is, unless you don't worship the Father, as Jesus did.
hmmmm.
DavidI worship Jesus as God because scriptures call him Lord and God and many worshipped him!
But tell me David, Is Jesus your god!
Your Bible says he is “a god”, then you should not have a problem confessing him as “Your god” right?
HMMM!
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:34) Quote T8 They are not Gods at all.
So, those “inspired” Bible writers were wrong to call them that?
Is that what you are saying?
Who are we to believe? You, or them?
Which makes more sense?
Clearly, something is wrong with your logic.
DavidDo you accept everything Watchtower tells you?
HMMM?
I am waiting for an answer to that one.
Ha, I doubt that will ever happen, eh?
WJ
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:34) Quote T8 They are not Gods at all.
So, those “inspired” Bible writers were wrong to call them that?
Is that what you are saying?
Who are we to believe? You, or them?
Which makes more sense?
Clearly, something is wrong with your logic.
BTWThis is a straw anyway since you know that not all translations render the verses that way.
WJ
Quote …We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is no God but one”. For “even if there are so‑called gods”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and MAKE NO MENTION OF THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NEITHER LET IT BE HEARD OUT OF THY MOUTH. Exod 23:13
WJ,
What happens when we include all the scriptures?
What happens if we look at your scriptures above, with the other scriptures that refer to angels, judges, etc as “gods.”?
What we find is a much broader definition of “god” then “The creator.”
“god” means “powerful one.” The false gods were not powerful at all, since they didn't really exist, hence, false gods.
The angels do exist and have relative power, hence to humans, they are 'powerful ones'
Same with the judges to other humans….powerful ones.
Same with Jesus to everyone other that the Father.
And of course the father is a powerful one to everyone, no one can be compared to him.
If you look at the context Is 43:10 (from which JW's take their name) comes from a trial in which Jehovah is demanding that if there are other gods, that they bring forth their witnesses and prove it. (This is clearly talking about false gods that were worshiped. Please read the account.)
Also, in 1 Cor, notice it is comparing Jehovah God to idols, false gods. And with Exodus, obviously the same.
But angels are not false gods. They do exist. They are powerful ones.
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:29) Quote Why do you insist on teaching and promoting Polytheism? –WJ
WJ, please name the other gods I worship.
If anyone is promoting Polytheism, it is you, “Worshipping Jesus.” Your very name denotes that you are polytheistic….that is, unless you don't worship the Father, as Jesus did.
hmmmm.
DavidAlso tell me why I never hear of you speaking of Gods today.
Tell me who in this day we live in is clasified as “a god” in your opinion.
Is it President Obama?
The head of watchtower?
Or have all the “gods” died with the OT prophets?
HMMM?
Must not be gods at all huh?
When have you called your last visit by an Angel a visit with “a god”?
Can you find me where the Apostles met with Angels and called them “God” Theos?
Didn't think so!
WJ
WJ, And what is the word, the orginal Hebrew word that some paraphrase or whatever? I don't consider the children's Bible's, the ones with pictures in them to be of much use. Do you?
As my first post says:
Quote The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1979, Hendrickson, p. 43: Elohim: “a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power…. b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels…. c. angels Ps. 97:7…”
Angels are clearly called gods (elohim) at Ps. 8:5, 6. We know this because this passage is quoted at Heb. 2:6, 7, and there the word “angels” is used (in place of elohim in the OT) in NT Greek. The very trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., 1970, says in a footnote for Ps. 8:6 –
“The angels: in Hebrew, elohim, which is the ordinary word for 'God' or 'the gods'; hence the ancient versions generally understood the term as referring to heavenly spirits [angels].”
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2010,18:41) Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:29) Quote Why do you insist on teaching and promoting Polytheism? –WJ
WJ, please name the other gods I worship.
If anyone is promoting Polytheism, it is you, “Worshipping Jesus.” Your very name denotes that you are polytheistic….that is, unless you don't worship the Father, as Jesus did.
hmmmm.
DavidAlso tell me why I never hear of you speaking of Gods today.
Tell me who in this day we live in is clasified as “a god” in your opinion.
Is it President Obama?
The head of watchtower?
Or have all the “gods” died with the OT prophets?
HMMM?
Must not be gods at all huh?
When have you called your last visit by an Angel a visit with “a god”?
Can you find me where the Apostles met with Angels and called them “God” Theos?
Didn't think so!
WJ
I loved the “didn't think so” at the end.I can sense your irritation. You seem to have forgot to acknowledge anything I said. I'm often not sure why you quote me at all, only to avoid what I quoted.
Worshipping Jesus and also worshipping the Father.
That is the definition of polytheism.
I worship only the Father.
Which of us is polytheistic?
hmmmm.
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:40) WJ, What happens when we include all the scriptures?
What happens if we look at your scriptures above, with the other scriptures that refer to angels, judges, etc as “gods.”?
David
What happens is you realize that the word “'elohiym” does not always mean “a god” but can mean Angel, rulers, judges mighty ones and not the other way around!
WJ
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,18:28) Quote
If as you say, angels are not gods (Elohyim) “at all” why does the Bible use that exact term to describe them?Please answer this question directly.
WJ, I included the word “directly” because I wanted you to actually answer the question, not just hint at it, or allude to it, or pretend to answer it.
PLEASE ANSWER.PLEASE ANSWER.
PLEASE ANSWER.
Guess not.
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2010,18:41) Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:29) Quote Why do you insist on teaching and promoting Polytheism? –WJ
WJ, please name the other gods I worship.
If anyone is promoting Polytheism, it is you, “Worshipping Jesus.” Your very name denotes that you are polytheistic….that is, unless you don't worship the Father, as Jesus did.
hmmmm.
DavidAlso tell me why I never hear of you speaking of Gods today.
Tell me who in this day we live in is clasified as “a god” in your opinion.
Is it President Obama?
The head of watchtower?
Or have all the “gods” died with the OT prophets?
HMMM?
Must not be gods at all huh?
When have you called your last visit by an Angel a visit with “a god”?
Can you find me where the Apostles met with Angels and called them “God” Theos?
Didn't think so!
WJ
I loved the “didn't think so” at the end.I can sense your irritation. You seem to have forgot to acknowledge anything I said. I'm often not sure why you quote me at all, only to avoid what I quoted.
Worshipping Jesus and also worshipping the Father.
That is the definition of polytheism.
I worship only the Father.
Which of us is polytheistic?
hmmmm.
LOLYou just called the Apostles and all those around the throne of God worshipping the Father and the Lamb, as well as t8 and Kathi Poytheist!
WJ
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:46) Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,18:28) Quote
If as you say, angels are not gods (Elohyim) “at all” why does the Bible use that exact term to describe them?Please answer this question directly.
WJ, I included the word “directly” because I wanted you to actually answer the question, not just hint at it, or allude to it, or pretend to answer it.
PLEASE ANSWER.PLEASE ANSWER.
PLEASE ANSWER.
Guess not.
DavidI sense your irritation.
Argue with scriptures…
…We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is no God but one“. For “even if there are so‑called gods“, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and MAKE NO MENTION OF THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NEITHER LET IT BE HEARD OUT OF THY MOUTH. Exod 23:13
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2010,18:46) Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:40) WJ, What happens when we include all the scriptures?
What happens if we look at your scriptures above, with the other scriptures that refer to angels, judges, etc as “gods.”?
David
What happens is you realize that the word “'elohiym” does not always mean “a god” but can mean Angel, rulers, judges mighty ones and not the other way around!
WJ
I think you phrased that wrong. Elohiym does mean “god.” But it can refer to angels, rulers, etc.Sometimes, Bibles that aren't meant for study purposes, make things simple for us. They take Elohiym, which literally means “god” and replace it with “angel” which in Hebrew, is not Elohiym.
Of course, that is what was specifically meant, “angel” but that is not what was specifically said. What this tells us is that angels are Elohiym (gods.)
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