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Hi,
Cato has posted this but this man probably needs his own thread as he pops up quite often“Mandy,
Thomas Paine 1737 – 1809 was an English pamphleteer, revolutionary, classical liberal and intellectual. His chief works being:
COMMON SENSE
(1776)
Paine's call to arms for America.• THE CRISIS
(1776-77)
“These are the times that try men's souls.”• THE RIGHTS OF MAN
(1791-92)
Paine's reply to an attack on the French Revolution by Edmund Burke.• AGE OF REASON
(1794, 1796)
Paine's biting criticism of the Bible and religion.Thomas Paine's writings had great influence on his contemporaries, especially the American revolutionaries.
Thomas Edison said of Paine:
I have always regarded Paine as one of the greatest of all Americans. Never have we had a sounder intelligence in this republic… It was my good fortune to encounter Thomas Paine's works in my boyhood… it was, indeed, a revelation to me to read that great thinker's views on political and theological subjects. Paine educated me then about many matters of which I had never before thought. I remember very vividly the flash of enlightenment that shone from Paine's writings and I recall thinking at that time, 'What a pity these works are not today the schoolbooks for all children!'Theologically he described himself as a “Deist” and commented: How different is [Christianity] to the pure and simple profession of Deism! The true Deist has but one Deity, and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in everything moral, scientifical, and mechanical
Deism became prominent in the 17th and 18th centuries during the Age of Enlightenment, especially in The United Kingdom, France and The United States of America, mostly among those raised as Christians who found they could not believe in either a triune God, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, or the inerrancy of scriptures, but who did believe in one God. “
Do the views of other 'important' men compare with that of God?
Hi,
Was he a martyr?
I doubt it.
http://www.wardsbookofdays.com/10january.htmA martyr? I don't know where you come up with such. Paine was simply a man of vision who could write with great clarity and widely influenced his times, and some of the most important figures of his day.
Greetings Cato…..Do we have any self proclaimed Deists' in our current leadership in the US….My understanding was their were several among the founding fathers…..
I don't know about today, but Jefferson, Washington and large number of the US founding fathers were deists. That was why there was strong emphasis on God, but also on separation of church and state. The 1796 treaty with Tripoli (article XI) states that the United States was “in no sense founded on the Christian religion”. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.
“. . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.” Benjamin Franklin
“Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself.”
-Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, Feb. 1800“Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”
James Madison – “A Memorial and Remonstrance”, 1785“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?”
John Adams -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816“The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore.”
Thomas Jefferson- Aug. 4, 1820“I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism makes me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not strictly speaking, whether I am one or not.”
Ethan Allen preface, Reason the Only Oracle of Manhttp://www.deism.com is a pretty interesting/informative site. I found that I could disagree with very little.
Hi not3,
To be a deist you must realise God is.
To be a christian you must also be known by God.
Knowledge about God without action is uselessness and vanity1 Corinthians 8:3
But if any man love God, the same is known of him.Galatians 4:9
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.I have no idea what your point is here, Nick? I agree with everything you wrote.
From what I understand Diest's believe in God, and presume they are “known” by God as much as we are.
As far as “action” is concerned, it takes faith to believe in God – yes. Diests have faith.I notice that you use the word “vanity” quite a lot. What exactly are you trying to prove when you use this term? That anyone using sources outside of the bible are taken in by only vanity?
Hi not3,
I know of George Bush.
I really believe he exists.
He has probably never heard of me
And we do not have any sort of lasting relationshipQuote (Cato @ April 12 2008,01:55) I don't know about today, but Jefferson, Washington and large number of the US founding fathers were deists. That was why there was strong emphasis on God, but also on separation of church and state. The 1796 treaty with Tripoli (article XI) states that the United States was “in no sense founded on the Christian religion”. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams. “. . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.” Benjamin Franklin
“Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself.”
-Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, Feb. 1800“Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”
James Madison – “A Memorial and Remonstrance”, 1785“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?”
John Adams -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816“The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore.”
Thomas Jefferson- Aug. 4, 1820“I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism makes me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not strictly speaking, whether I am one or not.”
Ethan Allen preface, Reason the Only Oracle of Man
Hi cato,
It may have escaped your attention but people of other countries do not see your American political leaders and their forebears in such a grand light as Americans seem to.Their masonic connections as deists do not bring them into any form of useful relationship with the Creator.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2008,14:11) Hi cato,
It may have escaped your attention but people of other countries do not see your American political leaders and their forebears in such a grand light as Americans seem to.Their masonic connections as deists do not bring them into any form of useful relationship with the Creator.
I think I was quoting the founding fathers of America not the current leadership who professes an evangelical Christian faith.It is these same founding fathers who were admired the world over as remarkable men of vision and intelligence. Their example inspired what came to be known as the Age of Revolution in Europe as others attempted, often unsuccessfully, to emulate the American example.
I think these individuals felt they had a useful relationship with the Creator, your own prejudices cause you to make unwarrented and unsupported assumptions to the contrary because they eschewed scripture and revelations.
Thomas Jesfferson,
A polymath, Jefferson achieved distinction as, among other things, a horticulturist, statesman, architect, archaeologist, paleontologist, author, inventor and founder of the University of Virginia. When President John F. Kennedy welcomed forty-nine Nobel Prize winners to the White House in 1962 he said, “I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent and of human knowledge that has ever been gathered together at the White House — with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone.”George Washington
Washington is seen as a symbol of the United States and republicanism in practice.His devotion to civic virtue made him an exemplary figure among early American politicians. Washington has been consistently ranked by scholars as one of the greatest U.S. Presidents.Benjamin Franklin
A noted polymath, Franklin was a leading author and printer, satirist, political theorist, politician, scientist, inventor, civic activist, statesman and diplomat. As a scientist he was a major figure in the Enlightenment and the history of physics for his discoveries and theories regarding electricity. He invented the lightning rod, bifocals, the Franklin stove, a carriage odometer, and a musical instrument. He formed both the first public lending library in America and first fire department in Pennsylvania. He was an early proponent of colonial unity and as a political writer and activist he, more than anyone, invented the idea of an American nation and as a diplomat during the American Revolution, he secured the French alliance that helped to make independence possibleYes, obviously a bunch of light weights and nobody we would like to emulate or trust.
Hi cato,
Lk16
15And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2008,07:34) Hi cato,
Lk16
15And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Nick,You mean like Jesus? One of the most admired and esteemed men in history.
Hi cato,
John 15:25
“But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ' THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.'Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2008,07:44) Hi cato,
John 15:25
“But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ' THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.'
The only people I can think of that hated Jesus were the Hebrew priests of God's so called chosen people, and they had a reason, Jesus threatened their livelyhood and hold on the masses. So your point is? How does this relate to the deist men who founded America, and which you are evidently trying to cast doubt upon?
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