Thief on the Cross

[Cubes]

Hi Jeff, welcome.

I hear what you are saying but I would like to assure you that Luke was for Christ and there's truth to what Nick said about the tapestry of truth being revealed through the different writers of the gospel.

Examples that I can think of at the moment are:

[942767]

Quote (jeff @ Feb. 15 2007,19:57)

Deathbed Salvation One of the most common doctrines in the fallen church is deathbed salvation. This doctrine prompts people to be comforted at the last minute salvation of a dieing loved one. This doctrine matches the instant salvation believed by the means of a simple prayer. Deathbed salvation seems to come from the pleasant account found in the gospel of Luke. Luke 23 .39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Seems simple enough one of the two who was crucified near Messiah received last minute salvation. There is only one problem Luke did not write this! Shocking isn’t it! Take a closer look, I find it amazing that this man knew that the Messiah was not yet in his Kingdom he said “when you come into your Kingdom.” How did he have an understanding of this and the Apostles didn’t? How about the Messiahs reply “Today you will be with me in paradise.” the Messiah was three days and three nights in the Earth before he was resurrected. The crucified Messiah descended to hell not paradise before his resurrection. Hell (death) couldn’t contain him, so he was freed (Resurrected). Acts 2 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;   31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. The Messiah would have been a liar if he told the Thief on the cross next to him they would be in paradise that day. To put the final nail in the in this false doctrine, Luke seems to be the only account that supports it. Matthew 27 .43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Matthew clearly states that both thieves came against the Messiah on the cross! Mark 15 Mr 15:29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, Mr 15:30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross. Mr 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save. Mr 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. Mark which is the first gospel written agrees with Matthew! John 19 18 Where they crucified him, and two others with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst John doesn’t mention the thieves’ actions. Matthew and Mark are clear both of the men crucified next to the Messiah came against him! Luke’s account on the other hand is found the only evidence of deathbed salvation. So what are we to believe? The key to finding the truth is found in Matthew! 8:16 and again in II Corinthians 13:1. Luke’s account is one witness Matthew and Marks accounts are two witnesses. Mt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 2co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. Luke’s account is one witness Matthew and Marks accounts are two witnesses. There is no other evidence of deathbed salvation besides the cross conversion in Luke. There is no deathbed salvation! God can save anyone he pleases but it is not to be believed you will be saved on your deathbed. If your preacher is preaching this false doctrine using Luke’s false account then it is clear he does not have spirit of truth! If one has the Holy spirit he or she cannot believe or remain in a Lie. Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of MEN. I do not beleive in the conversion of the Theif on the cross”He was numbered with the transgressers” If one of them was chosen to be saved then he would have not been called a transgresser.

Hi Jeff:

Jesus dying between thiefs is symbolic of him dying between those under the law and those who will worship the Anti-Christ.  All of us have been transgressors.  The thief that was saved repented and the other did not.

But if any one thinks that they can play God for a fool because it is possible for them to be saved on their deathbed, and they think that they can practice sin thinking that this a good time, and therefore, they will wait until they are ready to die and then repent, they are sadly mistaken.

Some one that is doing this will probably die before they have an opportunity to repent.

But yes, by virtue of Luke's account of the thief that repented and through what God has taught me in my personal relationship with him, a man can be saved on his deathbed if his repentance is sincere.

God Bless

[Morning Star]

The thief was saved and saw Christ in paradise that day. Paradise the good side of hades.

The thief fulfilled the first step of salvation, faith.

The thief fulfilled the second step of salvation, repentance.

The thief fulfilled the third step of salvation, baptism. A baptism in blood. Early christians believed if you were killed prior to being able to be baptised then you were baptised in blood. Jesus said, “Can you be baptised with the baptism I am going to receive?”

The thief fulfilled the fourth step of salvation, righteousness. He abided in christ for the remainder of his earthly days. Which happened to be zero. He did not fall away.

[jeff]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 17 2007,00:22)

Quote (jeff @ Feb. 15 2007,19:57) Deathbed Salvation One of the most common doctrines in the fallen church is deathbed salvation. This doctrine prompts people to be comforted at the last minute salvation of a dieing loved one. This doctrine matches the instant salvation believed by the means of a simple prayer. Deathbed salvation seems to come from the pleasant account found in the gospel of Luke. Luke 23 .39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Seems simple enough one of the two who was crucified near Messiah received last minute salvation. There is only one problem Luke did not write this! Shocking isn’t it! Take a closer look, I find it amazing that this man knew that the Messiah was not yet in his Kingdom he said “when you come into your Kingdom.” How did he have an understanding of this and the Apostles didn’t? How about the Messiahs reply “Today you will be with me in paradise.” the Messiah was three days and three nights in the Earth before he was resurrected. The crucified Messiah descended to hell not paradise before his resurrection. Hell (death) couldn’t contain him, so he was freed (Resurrected). Acts 2 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;   31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. The Messiah would have been a liar if he told the Thief on the cross next to him they would be in paradise that day. To put the final nail in the in this false doctrine, Luke seems to be the only account that supports it. Matthew 27 .43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Matthew clearly states that both thieves came against the Messiah on the cross! Mark 15 Mr 15:29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, Mr 15:30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross. Mr 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save. Mr 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. Mark which is the first gospel written agrees with Matthew! John 19 18 Where they crucified him, and two others with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst John doesn’t mention the thieves’ actions. Matthew and Mark are clear both of the men crucified next to the Messiah came against him! Luke’s account on the other hand is found the only evidence of deathbed salvation. So what are we to believe? The key to finding the truth is found in Matthew! 8:16 and again in II Corinthians 13:1. Luke’s account is one witness Matthew and Marks accounts are two witnesses. Mt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 2co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. Luke’s account is one witness Matthew and Marks accounts are two witnesses. There is no other evidence of deathbed salvation besides the cross conversion in Luke. There is no deathbed salvation! God can save anyone he pleases but it is not to be believed you will be saved on your deathbed. If your preacher is preaching this false doctrine using Luke’s false account then it is clear he does not have spirit of truth! If one has the Holy spirit he or she cannot believe or remain in a Lie. Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of MEN. I do not beleive in the conversion of the Theif on the cross”He was numbered with the transgressers” If one of them was chosen to be saved then he would have not been called a transgresser. Hi Jeff: Jesus dying between thiefs is symbolic of him dying between those under the law and those who will worship the Anti-Christ.  All of us have been transgressors.  The thief that was saved repented and the other did not. But if any one thinks that they can play God for a fool because it is possible for them to be saved on their deathbed, and they think that they can practice sin thinking that this a good time, and therefore, they will wait until they are ready to die and then repent, they are sadly mistaken. Some one that is doing this will probably die before they have an opportunity to repent. But yes, by virtue of Luke's account of the thief that repented and through what God has taught me in my personal relationship with him, a man can be saved on his deathbed if his repentance is sincere. God Bless

Simply put the four Gospels are now in the cannon of the New Testament but in the Early period Mark was the only Gospel it was about 15 years before the next was written and Luke being the last of this cannon.. Mark is clear both transgressors reviled Him. Unless in a period of three hours the thief mocked him then somehow received greater wisdom then the Apostles ad repented the account in Luke is One of the many additions to the scripture. Mathew, Mark and the Old Testament agree they both reviled him. If I was to say this that the Both thief’s cast the same as the Pharisees at his teeth , or both of them reviled him then which of you can accuse me of lying? If I say that in Luke a thief on the cross who agreed with the Pharisees and mocked the Messiah then repented after displaying a greater understanding then the Apostles how could you challenge this if you hold true to the story in Luke? Sometimes I have seen that some read deeply into scripture looking for symbolism and this symbolism always if you will notice lifts up the ones who believe it a hidden uplifting if you will. I would pray you to first seek whether the Story at question is original or added. Brothers and sisters I have witnessed you that you seeing through the false Trinity and understanding that the Son is not the Father are of the same spirit as I. Please remember what devices the adversary uses Mainly that a Church or denomination has the belief that they are equal to the Apostles in so much that they have put away the script
ure and believe they are the Word of God . Are adversary leads men to believe they have a right to add and remove from scripture as they choose and this has been done from the start and when you confront them they tell you it is true and this is why they say we must let the Church interpret scripture. This one I have brought to your attention the Thief on the Cross believe me I can show you a great deal more, ones that are known yet left in scripture because every generation preached them and doesn’t wont to ripple the water. Please do not be offended.

[NickHassan]

Hi jeff,
Is Luke always a liar or only on this occasion? Are any of his words to be trusted in your view? Are there other liars who write in the power of the Spirit? What other parts of scripture are untrustworthy?

I disagree. It is us who has to find how to resolve what is given to us and not to reject any scripture just on the basis of perceived inconsistency. The problem is in us.

[jeff]

Bible Errors

Dogmatic Christians mostly of the charismatic faith strongly warn against new translations of the Bible. They point to omitted or changed text. I have to admit I was one of these in the past. One day on may way home from work, I was listening to a radio minister preaching. The preacher was trying to illustrate something in the Word but parts of it didn’t agree with him. To rectify this he begin to show how the King James Version was a commentary Bible that not all that was written was original. I was stunned and as all things I searched it out for myself. I found that he was telling the truth I have one king James that shows Italics ( ) on some statements and another that doesn’t. Things placed in Italics are commentary the interpreter added it to try to explain his thoughts of the meaning. Those who fear Newer versions are those who did not research the History. Did you know that the Pilgrims fleeing from persecution from King James rejected his Bible as corrupt. These being called separatists refused to worship on Sunday as well. Although historians of the Christian elk try to deny this the Early settlers in America worshiped on the Sabbath (Saturday) unless of course they are the only group of people in the world and in history to call Sunday a Sabbath. I would like to say it was also illegal for some time in America to celebrate Christ-Mass, at least until organized protestants and Catholics came over. Separatists are those who believe the Bible is the final word not Church. If you took away all the service and traditions and symbols that are not mentioned in the word there would be no organized Church. If God didn’t command it then its not of God, if God did command it then it is of God.

Here is an example of commentary

Ro 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Ro 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Notice all that is in Italics, Paul did not write this. A scribe wrote this to add their thoughts to its meaning. Read it with just Paul’s writing.

Ro 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven?
Ro 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep?

Easier to understand this way, we cannot say who is saved and who is not! Funny thing is in the book of Revelation you will not find this, because they where afraid to add to that book except a word of praise “Though art rich.” Seeing this I began to search out the origin of scripture. I was even more amazed at what I had found. The new Testament is riddled with additions and errors. There are three famous errors in the New testament.
1
1jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

This verse is surrounded with controversy; newer versions omit it. The reason is in the first published edition of the Geek New Testament “editio princeps” gathered by Desiderius Erasmus. Erasmus omitted it because it was not found in the vast majority of the Greek texts. HE later under much persecutions published a second edition and added it
In the notes of the new King James it is listed as only found in four later (around eighth century) documents simply put it was not in the older manuscripts of first John it was added by a scribe, John did not write it! Bible scholars call this error the JOHANNINE COMMA. It is defended by Christian historians by declaring that the scribe simply thought John would have said it so it would be ok to add it. The true reason it was added is because throughout the history of the Catholic church the deity of Christ was challenged. I suppose the Catholic church needed to set their pagan doctrine in stone. The very church system who called those who disagreed with them heretics, commit the violist of heresies to corrupt the words of an Apostle. Let me be clear if Jesus the Messiah does not come down and literally choose you. You are not an Apostle!

1jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1jo 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
2
Mr 16:8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.
Mr 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Mr 16:10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. Mr 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
Mr 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
Mr 16:13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
Mr 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mr 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mr 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mr 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Mark 16:9 thru 16:20 These verses plunge the Christian world into what is called the Great commission “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
It also is the reason for the Pentecostal movement “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues.” There also the beginning the Snake handling churches “They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Mark didn’t write verses nine thru twenty, they where added by Catholic scribes. The scribes didn’t like how Mark ended his Gospel.

Mr 16:8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.

The scribes feared criticism for the Gospel ending so abruptly and thought Mark simply didn’t finish it. Christian historians and Bible scalars defend the added verses by saying they were taken from other Gospels. I wouldn’t want to be the man who decided to add words that the Messiah didn’t say as if he did say them! Look at the confusion of these forged verses.
The great commission
The great commission generated billions of dollars to spread false doctrine around the world. America prides itself thinking it has been formed for this purpose. Paul on the other hand declaired that it was already fulfilled.
Ro 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Ro 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Ro 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Seems Paul is convinced that the world already received the Gospel.

Pentecostal
Pentecostal movement are people who believe that the latter-day rain was pored out at what is called the Azusa street revival. Pentecostals believe there must be evidence of speaking in tongues for salvation. I do not deny that the Spirit of God can and has aloud men to speak in other tongues. it’s the unknown tongues that do not make sense.
Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Ac 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Ac 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Ac 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Ac 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Other tongues is a language of this world, the men herd the language of their own country. This spiritual gift was intended to be a sign and a help to further the Gospel. Pentecostals on the other hand are not speaking a language of this world but some cosmic gibberish no one understands. They say it is the language of the third heaven.

2co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2co 12:3 And I knew such a man,
2co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Snake handlers
These are to me aside from those who prey to the dead one of the most disturbing charismatic movements. They believe similar to the Pentecostals that there must be evidence of salvation. They on the other hand do not stop at tongues but believe one can drink poison and handle rattle snakes. They believe if you are saved the poison and the snake bite will not harm you. Again the gift of protection was for the spreading of the Gospel, paul being saved from the snake bite was so he go on with his ministry. Jesus (Yeshua) was also promised by God the Creator that the Angels will bear him up lest he dash his foot. Satan came to Jesus (Yeshua) to try to get him to tempt God by casting himself from the temple.

Mt 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
I don’t know about you but the Verses added to Mark 16 have seem to have caused much heresy. If Mark had the Holy Spirit and I believe he did then only his words should be accepted. To allow additions to Marks or any other Apostles writings can only be doctrine of devils.
3
The woman taken in adultery

One of the most preached stories of the New Testament is the woman taken in adultery.
The problem with it is it is not in the older manuscripts of John. John did not write it!

Joh 7:52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
Joh 7:53 And every man went unto his own house.
Joh 8:1 Jesus went unto the mount of olives.
Joh 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

This story although it is pleasant has a multitude of problems. For one Jesus was inside the Temple there is only one Temple and it was in Jerusalem And it was not aloud that a woman could inter it. If a woman was taken in adultery you can bet she was not taken inside the Temple. In verse 9 it says Jesus was left alone with the woman, then immediately in verse 12 he begain to speak to them again. He was left alone who was he speaking to?

Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Take out all that was added and it fuses together like this.

Joh 7:52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Notice in both the corrupted verses in Mark 16 and the account of the woman taken in adultery that they both have something in common.

Mr 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Joh 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

I believe the same Scribes
are responsible for both of these false scriptures. Why the cute story of the woman taken in adultery? Historians believe that is was a word of mouth story that Scribes thought should be added. I have demonstrated how the Mark 16 heresies have caused massive false doctrine. How can the woman in adultery hurt anything. Much, Jesus was given all judgment being Elohyim on Earth. This story declairs that Jesus will not judge adultery. If this woman was forgiven by force and not repentance, then all adulterers will not be judged. Seems it was in someone’s interest to justify adultery.

These three errors are not debatable there is not an Bible scalar alive that will tell you they are original. These three are not even debated they are false scripture! Im sure most are shocked by this, but if your preacher went to Bible college he is well aware of this. If your preacher is not aware of this then he does not have the Spirit of truth! If your preacher is aware of it and chooses to preach these three anyway he is of Satan! Satan was a liar from the beginning. It may be they are afraid to tell you, it might challenge your faith in the New Testament. None the less your not being fed.

[jeff]

2th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2th 2:11 And for this cause God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2th 2:12 That they all may be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[david]

“He said to him [an evildoer who was being impaled alongside Jesus and who expressed faith in Jesus’ coming kingship]: ‘Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.’”—Luke 23:43.

How can we be sure what Jesus meant by Paradise in his statement to the evildoer, at Luke 23:43?

Was it a temporary abode for ‘departed souls of the just,’ a part of Hades?

What is the origin of that view? The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states:
“With the infiltration of the G[ree]k doctrine of the immortality of the soul paradise becomes the dwelling-place of the righteous during the intermediate state.” (Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1976, edited by Colin Brown, Vol. 2, p. 761)

Was that unscriptural view common among the Jews when Jesus was on earth? Hastings’ Dictionary of the Bible indicates that this is doubtful.—(Edinburgh, 1905), Vol. III, pp. 669, 670.

Even if that view were common among the Jews in the first century, would Jesus have endorsed it by his promise to the repentant evildoer? Jesus had forcefully condemned the Jewish Pharisees and scribes for teaching traditions that conflicted with God’s Word.—Matt. 15:3-9; see also the main heading “Soul.”

Jesus did go to Hades when he died, as is shown at Acts 2:30, 31. (The apostle Peter, when referring there to Psalm 16:10, is quoted as using Hades as the equivalent of Sheol.) But the Bible nowhere states that Sheol/Hades or any part of it is a paradise that brings a person pleasure. Rather, Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 says that those who are there “are conscious of nothing at all.”

Was the Paradise of Luke 23:43 heaven or some part of heaven?

The Bible does not agree with the view that Jesus and the evildoer went to heaven on the day that Jesus spoke to him. Jesus had foretold that, after his being killed, he would not be raised up until the third day. (Luke 9:22) During that three-day period he was not in heaven, because following his resurrection he told Mary Magdalene: “I have not yet ascended to the Father.” (John 20:17) It was 40 days after Jesus’ resurrection that his disciples saw him lifted up from the earth and out of their sight as he began his ascent to heaven.—Acts 1:3, 6-11.

The evildoer did not meet the requirements to go to heaven even at some later time. He was not “born again”—being neither baptized in water nor begotten by God’s spirit. Holy spirit was not poured out upon Jesus’ disciples until more than 50 days after the evildoer’s death. (John 3:3, 5; Acts 2:1-4) On the day of his death, Jesus had made with those ‘who had stuck with him in his trials’ a covenant for a heavenly kingdom. The evildoer had no such record of faithfulness and was not included.—Luke 22:28-30.

What points to this Paradise as being earthly?

The Hebrew Scriptures had never led faithful Jews to expect a reward of heavenly life. Those Scriptures pointed to the restoration of Paradise here on earth. Daniel 7:13, 14 had foretold that when “rulership and dignity and kingdom” would be given to the Messiah, “the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” Those subjects of the Kingdom would be here on the earth. By what he said to Jesus, the evildoer was evidently expressing the hope that Jesus would remember him when that time came.

How, then, would Jesus be with the evildoer? By raising him from the dead, making provision for his physical needs, and extending to him the opportunity to learn and conform to Jehovah’s requirements for eternal life. (John 5:28, 29) Jesus saw in the evildoer’s repentant and respectful attitude a basis for including him among the billions who will be resurrected to earthly life and the opportunity to prove their worthiness to live forever in Paradise.

When will the evildoer be in Paradise?

One’s understanding of Luke 23:43 is influenced by the punctuation used by the translator. There was no punctuation in the original Greek Bible manuscripts. The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XXIII, p. 16) states:

“No attempt to punctuate is apparent in the earlier manuscripts and inscriptions of the Greeks.”

Not until the 9th century C.E. did such punctuation come into use. Should Luke 23:43 read, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (RS), or should it be, ‘Truly I say to you today, You will be with me in Paradise’? The teachings of Christ and the rest of the Bible must be the basis for determination, and not a comma inserted in the text centuries after Jesus said those words.

The Emphasised Bible translated by J. B. Rotherham agrees with the punctuation in the New World Translation. In a footnote on Luke 23:43, German Bible translator L. Reinhardt says:

“The punctuation presently used [by most translators] in this verse is undoubtedly false and contradictory to the entire way of thinking of Christ and the evildoer. . . . [Christ] certainly did not understand paradise to be a subdivision of the realm of the dead, but rather the restoration of a paradise on earth.”

When would Jesus ‘get into his kingdom’ and fulfill his Father’s purpose to make the earth a paradise? The book of Revelation, written about 63 years after the statements recorded at Luke 23:42, 43 were made, indicates that these events were still in the future.” –Reasoning, page 284

[david]

paradise?

The three terms translated as “paradise” in the Bible (Hebrew par·des′, Persian pairidaeza, and Greek pa·ra′dei·sos), all convey the basic idea of a beautiful park or parklike garden. The first such park was that made by man’s Creator, Jehovah God, in Eden. (Ge 2:8, 9, 15) It is called a gan, or “garden,” in Hebrew but was obviously parklike in size and nature. The Greek Septuagint appropriately uses the term pa·ra′dei·sos with reference to that garden.

Luke’s account shows that an evildoer, being executed alongside Jesus Christ, spoke words in Jesus’ defense and requested that Jesus remember him when he ‘got into his kingdom.’ Jesus’ reply was: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” (Lu 23:39-43) The punctuation shown in the rendering of these words must, of course, depend on the translator’s understanding of the sense of Jesus’ words, since no punctuation was used in the original Greek text. Punctuation in the modern style did not become common until about the ninth century C.E. Whereas many translations place a comma before the word “today” and thereby give the impression that the evildoer entered Paradise that same day, there is nothing in the rest of the Scriptures to support this.
Jesus himself was dead and in the tomb until the third day and was then resurrected as “the firstfruits” of the resurrection. (Ac 10:40; 1Co 15:20; Col 1:18) He ascended to heaven 40 days later.—Joh 20:17; Ac 1:1-3, 9.
The evidence is, therefore, that Jesus’ use of the word “today” was not to give the time of the evildoer’s being in Paradise but, rather, to call attention to the time in which the promise was being made and during which the evildoer had shown a measure of faith in Jesus. It was a day when Jesus had been rejected and condemned by the highest-ranking religious leaders of his own people and was thereafter sentenced to die by Roman authority. He had become an object of scorn and ridicule.

Recognizing that the emphasis is correctly placed on the time of the promise’s being made rather than on the time of its fulfillment, other translations, such as those in English by Rotherham and Lamsa, those in German by Reinhardt and W. Michaelis, as well as the Curetonian Syriac of the fifth century C.E., rendered the text in a form similar to the reading of the New World Translation.

As to the identification of the Paradise of which Jesus spoke, it is clearly not synonymous with the heavenly Kingdom of Christ. Earlier that day entry into that heavenly Kingdom had been held out as a prospect for Jesus’ faithful disciples but on the basis of their having ‘stuck with him in his trials,’ something the evildoer had never done, his dying on a stake alongside Jesus being purely for his own criminal acts. (Lu 22:28-30; 23:40, 41) The evildoer obviously had not been “born again,” of water and spirit, which Jesus showed was a prerequisite to entry into the Kingdom of the heavens. (Joh 3:3-6)

Some present the view that Jesus was referring to a paradise location in Hades or Sheol, supposedly a compartment or division thereof for those approved by God.
The claim is made that the Jewish rabbis of that time taught the existence of such a paradise for those who had died and were awaiting a resurrection. Regarding the teachings of the rabbis, Hastings’ Dictionary of the Bible states: “The Rabbinical theology as it has come down to us exhibits an extraordinary medley of ideas on these questions, and in the case of many of them it is difficult to determine the dates to which they should be assigned. . . . Taking the literature as it is, it might appear that Paradise was regarded by some as on earth itself, by others as forming part of Sheol, by others still as neither on earth nor under earth, but in heaven . . . But there is some doubt as respects, at least, part of this. These various conceptions are found indeed in later Judaism. They appear most precisely and most in detail in the mediaeval Cabbalistic Judaism . . . But it is uncertain how far back these things can be carried. The older Jewish theology at least . . . seems to give little or no place to the idea of an intermediate Paradise. It speaks of a Gehinnom for the wicked, and a Gan Eden, or garden of Eden, for the just. It is questionable whether it goes beyond these conceptions and affirms a Paradise in Sheol.”—1905, Vol. III, pp. 669, 670.
Even if they did teach such a thing, it would be most unreasonable to believe that Jesus would propagate such a concept, in view of his condemnation of the non-Biblical religious traditions of the Jewish religious leaders. (Mt 15:3-9) Likely the paradise truly familiar to the Jewish malefactor to whom Jesus spoke was the earthly Paradise described in the first book of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Paradise of Eden. That being so, Jesus’ promise would reasonably point to a restoration of such earthly paradisaic condition. His promise to the wrongdoer would therefore give assured hope of a resurrection of such an unrighteous one to an opportunity to life in that restored Paradise.—Compare Ac 24:15; Re 20:12, 13; 21:1-5; Mt 6:10.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
You say
” Likely the paradise truly familiar to the Jewish malefactor to whom Jesus spoke was the earthly Paradise described in the first book of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Paradise of Eden. That being so, Jesus’ promise would reasonably point to a restoration of such earthly paradisaic condition. His promise to the wrongdoer would therefore give assured hope of a resurrection of such an unrighteous one to an opportunity to life in that restored Paradise.—Compare Ac 24:15; Re 20:12, 13; 21:1-5; Mt 6:10.”

I wonder if the “unrighteous one” fully understood this convoluted explanation.
Personally I believe Jesus declared him righteous according to his faith.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Only John was at the cross.
His record
” 18Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

19And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

20This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

21Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.

22Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.

23Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

24They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

25Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

26When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

28After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

29Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.

30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

31The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

32Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

33But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

35And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.”

Perhaps Luke and Matthew and Mark were among those who stood afar off.
Lk 23
” 32And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.

33And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

35And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

36And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,

37And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.

38And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

44And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

45And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

47Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.

48And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.

49And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.”

Mk 15
” 25And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

26And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

27And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

28And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

29And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,

30Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

33And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

34And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

35And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.

36And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.

37And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

38And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

39And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

40There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

41(Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.”

Matt 27
” 35And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

36And sitting down they watched him there;

37And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

38Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

39And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

44The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

45Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud vo
ice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

48And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

49The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.”

They do not agree with what was written on the cross so do these details really matter as they were the honest observations and memories of 4 men of what they saw? What they heard from Jesus they always remembered perfectly as it was the Spirit's work.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
The thief died under the Old Covenant.
The blood of the sacrifice had yet to be poured out.

[942767]

Quote (Artizan007 @ April 21 2006,21:09)

Hi Guys Paul said he baptised no one except a few names he mentioned… what happended to all the other people he lead to Christ in his missionary journeys… does anyone know. 1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, {I know not whether I baptized any other}. Christ sent me [not to baptize], but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect I know not whether I baptized ANY other – gosh He had bad memory eh – by this statement Paul here seems to make out that baptism is not all that important to Him! He even can't remember if he Baptised anyone else! Then he states a new command from Jesus for him: “and Christ sent me NOT to baptise but to preach”… preaching was his thing… now there is something. Paul states he did not in general practice baptizm himself… Did did one of his travelling companions do this job for him or did he simply not do it apart from the few instances. What happened to those who believed on the Isle of Malta when Paul was alone on that island. Who baptized them and if they were not baptised then were they even saved according other scriptures… if Paul only baptized those two and the group at Stephanas' house he thinks… hehe then these guys were not baptised… though no salvation is mentioned – after all the miraculous things that happened on that island, and the honour people showed to Paul – I cant believe there was no one saved. So did Jesus change his commission when it came to Paul? If he commanded all to “baptise in water” how is it that Paul did not make it a practice… He specifically states that He was not sent to baptize… Those who preach were to make disciples and baptise them – was that not What Jesus had commissioned… SO he is to [preach the gospel] as per the commission but was [not to baptize] contrary to the commission. Had something changed I have missed out on something? Then in verse30 he says: But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. How are we “in Christ” acording to Paul…, salvation and belief in the Messiah and His redemptive work of the Cross or through the outward cleansing of water baptizm? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul is asking the question about HS Baptism to some men who were baptised into John's baptim – notice *water and repentence*. And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, *Unto John's baptism*. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the [baptism of repentance] (water baptism), saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized into* the name of the Lord Jesus. {And} when Paul had laid his hands upon them, [(the) Holy Ghost came on them]; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. IS that not Jesus' baptism of Holy Spirit Fire? They were baptized into Jesus, not into water. *The footnote of my Bible says “in” the modern translations seem to say into… What was the baptism here, was it water or was it “Holy Spirit” coming on them… or two separate things… if it was water baptism, then Paul got it wrong in 1 Corinthians where he said he baptized no one except the two and the house hold of Stephanas. Or did he have someone with him that is not mentioned in the text who baptized for him. From my reading he seems to be alone here… Your thoughts

Hi All:

Paul was not de-emphasizing the importance by his statement that “God did not send him to baptize but to preach the gospel”.  

In order for people to believe the gospel, they must first hear about the gospel. Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ?  
10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent ? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!  
10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?  
10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.  
10:18
 Baptism is an action in response to the fact that you believe with a repentant heart.

If one does not believe or has not repented, then baptism does not have any meaning.  One who has been baptized without meeting these two conditions went down into the water a dry sinner and came up a wet one.  There was no change.

God Bless

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2007,12:37)

Hi 94, The thief died under the Old Covenant. The blood of the sacrifice had yet to be poured out.

Hi Nick:

That may be true, but it is the blood that washes away the sins of those who were under the Old Covenant as well as those who are under the New Covenant.

But through personal experience God has shown me that a person can be saved on their death bed if they believe with a repentant heart.

But Jesus statement was in John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God. (He did not specify a particular covenant.  He said that a man cannot enter into the kingdom of God unless he meets this criteria).

Those under the Old Testament had been given the Law of Moses which is God's eternal law.  It is God's Word.  And so, it is my understanding that they were born of living water (the Word of God), but they were not born again (they had not been born of the Spirit of God or raised up from the dead by the Spirit of God), but they will be when Jesus comes for the church.  It is the blood of Jesus which will wash away their sins.

Every believer under the New Covenant should be baptized in water, I believe by immersion, as soon after they believe whether or not they have received the Holy Ghost (like Cornelius).

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Look at the parable of the prodigal son in Lk 15. Surely the older son is the faithful Jewish son who expects an INHERITANCE. The gentile sinner son is wrapped in the garment of the righteousness of Jesus and is empowered by the Spirit shown in type as the ring, but not the older son.

[NickHassan]

topical

[NickHassan]

Hi DE,
You may find interest here.

[NickHassan]

Hi Shania,
The New covenant was not yet established in the blood of Jesus when the thief was made the promise. Besides Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth. We, however, must be obedient servants and preach the gospel of Christ crucified.

[NickHassan]

For Irene

[Not3in1]

Ironic. I was thinking about this today.

The thief on the cross had the green light from Jesus – he was going to be counted in paradise. But wait! he wasn't water baptized? It must not be essential then?

[Author]

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