Thief on the Cross

[Cubes]

Quote (charity @ Feb. 14 2007,03:37)

Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 13 2007,22:34) Quote (charity @ Feb. 14 2007,02:48) Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 13 2007,19:58) Romans 6:4 and 1 Corinthians 15:50: Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and what is corruptible, the incorruptible… then it needs be that flesh and blood must be somehow transformed into the life of Christ by the power of God (new creation -John 3:3f and  Romans 8:1f), and through Christ, the second Adam…we having this newness of life in the spirit, and what is corruptible becoming incorruptible. Hi cubes The adoption wit redemption of our body. Rom 8:23  And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. Paul redeemed but still walking the earth 1Cr 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed, We have a goal When that which is perfect has come Part of the problem is we have been bewitched that we are already something when we are nothing Our hope has been stolen towards change 1Cr 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 1Cr 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 1Cr 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 1Cr 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1Cr 13:13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity. Hi Charity, It's how I see it too: 1Jo 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And adding to what you've already said: Rom 8:24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it]. And 1Cr 15:35   But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?   1Cr 15:36   [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:   1Cr 15:37   And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:   1Cr 15:38   But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.   1Cr 15:39   All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.   1Cr 15:40   [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.   1Cr 15:41   [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.   1Cr 15:42   So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:   1Cr 15:43   It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:   1Cr 15:44   It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.   1Cr 15:45   And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.   1Cr 15:46   Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.   1Cr 15:47   The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.   1Cr 15:48   As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.   1Cr 15:49   And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.   1Cr 15:50   Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Also cubes this your such a blessing I also understand that the thief did not have time to water baptized? Maybe he did? But I consider Grace to have be made a Law at times Even to the extent of selling directions to the kingdom charity

Hey thanks, Charity!

It's easy for us to take the ball and run with it,
in the wrong direction at times, isn't it?

I think you hit the nail on the head: Grace being made into law. And yet, does grace excuse us from obedience to God?

I believe Christ showed us how to keep the scale lovingly and realistically balanced.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes and charity,
The weak imperishable body is sown in baptism and like a grain of wheat falling to the ground and dying it dies to grow up again in resurrection as the heavenly body?]
Grace as mercy saves more than the way does I think.[Matt 25]

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2007,03:08)

Hi charity and cubes, So the body is redeemed and resurrected but then clothed, while those not in Christ are unclothed[naked]? maybe 2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Amen, Nick.

And this:

Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2007,04:40)

Hi cubes and charity, The weak imperishable body is sown in baptism and like a grain of wheat falling to the ground and dying it dies to grow up again in resurrection as the heavenly body?]

That's more or less what I gathered from the scriptures that made up my first post today: water baptism appears to work in concert with God's over all plan of salvation for us.

Quote

Grace as mercy saves more than the way does I think.[Matt 25]

Please clarify

[charity]

Hi Nick and cubes

2Cr 5:4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Grace offered first even so we may not be lead to works to receive grace
Grace to approach the throne of God in weakness
For in end times many will pervert the grace of God turning it into lasciviousness

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
God sent Jesus to show us the WAY.
But then He writes in scripture all the others who are saved by His mercy alone outside of the way
-those who give a glass of water to us because we belong to his Son, the poor in the highways and byways who fill up the wedding seats etc.
God is bountifully merciful but we should hope in salvation in the first resurrection and not the second as Heb 4 urges.

[jeff]

Deathbed Salvation
One of the most common doctrines in the fallen church is deathbed salvation. This doctrine prompts people to be comforted at the last minute salvation of a dieing loved one. This doctrine matches the instant salvation believed by the means of a simple prayer. Deathbed salvation seems to come from the pleasant account found in the gospel of Luke.

Luke 23
.39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Seems simple enough one of the two who was crucified near Messiah received last minute salvation. There is only one problem Luke did not write this! Shocking isn’t it!
Take a closer look, I find it amazing that this man knew that the Messiah was not yet in his Kingdom he said “when you come into your Kingdom.” How did he have an understanding of this and the Apostles didn’t? How about the Messiahs reply “Today you will be with me in paradise.” the Messiah was three days and three nights in the Earth before he was resurrected. The crucified Messiah descended to hell not paradise before his resurrection. Hell (death) couldn’t contain him, so he was freed (Resurrected).

Acts 2
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The Messiah would have been a liar if he told the Thief on the cross next to him they would be in paradise that day. To put the final nail in the in this false doctrine, Luke seems to be the only account that supports it.

Matthew 27
.43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Matthew clearly states that both thieves came against the Messiah on the cross!

Mark 15
Mr 15:29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,
Mr 15:30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
Mr 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
Mr 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Mark which is the first gospel written agrees with Matthew!

John 19
18 Where they crucified him, and two others with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst

John doesn’t mention the thieves’ actions. Matthew and Mark are clear both of the men crucified next to the Messiah came against him! Luke’s account on the other hand is found the only evidence of deathbed salvation. So what are we to believe? The key to finding the truth is found in Matthew! 8:16 and again in II Corinthians 13:1. Luke’s account is one witness Matthew and Marks accounts are two witnesses.

Mt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Luke’s account is one witness Matthew and Marks accounts are two witnesses. There is no other evidence of deathbed salvation besides the cross conversion in Luke. There is no deathbed salvation! God can save anyone he pleases but it is not to be believed you will be saved on your deathbed. If your preacher is preaching this false doctrine using Luke’s false account then it is clear he does not have spirit of truth! If one has the Holy spirit he or she cannot believe or remain in a Lie.
Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of MEN.

I do not beleive in the conversion of the Theif on the cross”He was numbered with the transgressers” If one of them was chosen to be saved then he would have not been called a transgresser.

[NickHassan]

Hi jeff,
You state that Luke's account is false? I disagree. Certainly there are no witnesses to it but I believe it is a fuller account and the other versions can be aligned with it as two out of the three thieves abused him. There are many such examples and if we were to expunge from the gospels all things found only in one version we would not have a lot left.

[jeff]

Constantine historically wanted to baptized on his deathbed and this story was to justify him. I hope you are aware of the additions to the New testament? I wondered why there was an account in John there was only two transgressors with him.
18 Where they crucified him, and two others with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst

[NickHassan]

Hi jeff,
I believe the gospels are honest accounts from the point of view of the observer concerned.
Not all here or see exactly the same things. Some hear fascinating details that others miss while on some things they hear and see exactly the same. John was at the cross with Mary and Luke I think got a lot of his information from Mary as he was not there.There are many other things not personally observed but recorded-for example Christ saw the Spirit like a dove descend at the Jordan, and must have told the others what he saw for there is no mention of them seeing it.

[jeff]

True but we must rightfully divide the Word of truth and the Key is given to use there must be two witnesses.
Acording to Gods Law and to the witness of it in the new testament I am not to beleive anything unless it has two or three witnesses.

[jeff]

To beleive Luke is to call Matthew and Mark liers.

[jeff]

God has preserved his Word just have to have the Keys to find it

[jeff]

A man cannot inter the Kingdom of God lest he is Born again.
The Messiah was called the First born from the dead and the first of Many brethren.
Jesus was the only to be resurected from the dead and translated the others are yet to come if the theif was with him in the kingdom then has he gone befor the rest?

[NickHassan]

Quote (jeff @ Feb. 15 2007,20:35)

True but we must rightfully divide the Word of truth and the Key is given to use there must be two witnesses. Acording to Gods Law and to the witness of it in the new testament I am not to beleive anything unless it has two or three witnesses.

Hi jeff,
A FACT is established in the mouth of witnesses but nothing in scripture is false apart from a few additions made by men. Only FACTS should be taught as clear foundational truths.

It is not one gospel writer versus the others for God inspired them all and allowed them to write a full tapestry of truth rather than just FACTS.

It is only written in one of the accounts that Jesus said adultery was an approved reason for marital separation and I think this shows God is tolerant of man's weakness.

[NickHassan]

Quote (jeff @ Feb. 15 2007,20:44)

A man cannot inter the Kingdom of God lest he is Born again. The Messiah was called the First born from the dead and the first of Many brethren. Jesus was the only to be resurected from the dead and translated the others are yet to come if the theif was with him in the kingdom then has he gone befor the rest?

Hi jeff,
The new covenant was sealed with the blood spilled at the death of the sacrificial lamb.
The good thief it seems, died before that event so died under the old covenant.

[Morning Star]

Quote (jeff @ Feb. 15 2007,20:44)

A man cannot inter the Kingdom of God lest he is Born again. The Messiah was called the First born from the dead and the first of Many brethren. Jesus was the only to be resurected from the dead and translated the others are yet to come if the theif was with him in the kingdom then has he gone befor the rest?

No, Jesus went to hades and preached the gospel there.

The thief was in hades in paradise, abraham's bosom, the good side of hades. The thief is where all the other righteous dead are with the exception of some martyrs who it was taught went straight to being in the presence of the Lord.

there they wait until the resurrection, in a wonderful place.

[charity]

Quote (jeff @ Feb. 15 2007,20:39)

God has preserved his Word just have to have the Keys to find it

Greetings Jeff

Discomfort causes us to fear God

What News shall have a Mans heart Fail Him?

Discomfort causes us to fear God

What News shall have a Man heart Fail Him?

All scripture is profitable and inspirational
Search the scriptures for in them some think they have salvation?

We must all be in fear as the thief was concerning his ending
We must all be against him before we are with him
Hear the rooster crow
Confessing that all must deny

Psa 45:4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness [and] righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.

Psa 65:5 [By] terrible things in righteousness wilt thou answer us, O God of our salvation; [who art] the confidence of all the ends of the earth, and of them that are afar off [upon] the sea:

God bless

charity

[charity]

Kill the pride

For one moment if we were to consider ourselves not as the “righteous one” before God
And be the thief on the cross
I would convinced they blessing would come soon after
He who dies with me shall rise with him also

charity

[jeff]

Their legs were broken because they were yet alive. I was as you are to try to find an answer to the  contradiction  but then  I found that not all witnesses are true.  In all things the key to knowledge  is the obedience of God. The fact remains three witnesses declare there was no good thief, and only one witness there was. To obey  the father  I must receive the witness of two or more on these matters of contradiction. It is no secret that not all that is in the New Testament is original this is why the New translations differ from the KJV. What is not known is how much is true and how much was added.  There is no codex or manuscript that is identical to another. All truth must be spiritually discerned.  

Re 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. Re 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Re 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

The doctrine of the Nicolaitanes was antinomianism which is the belief that the Laws of God are not relevant as they say in this time or in the new covenant. This is the doctrine of all churches today and is the reason for them not being able to see the Word. There is Hidden Manna to be discovered and I would think and believe if I should live to be 1000 I could not find it all. But this theif on the cross I have found and  it cannot be defended  other than I am told I just need to believe even though it is obviously an error. This error has caused much destruction as did the others. If the story is true then salvation can come by the simple prayer just before you die remember me Jesus. I am sorry to those who received him he gave the power to become sons of God . To receive him is not enough to be saved you must use the power given and this power that is denied though they have a form of Godliness is  to ask “Has God commanded this” or “Has man commanded this”.

[Author]

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