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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2008,11:38) Hi WJ,
So it does not mean he is the only one but it speaks of his unique genesis.
NHBut it does mean he is the “Only One” in that there will never be another Word that was with God and was God and was made flesh, or tabernacled among us.
This is the Genisis you are speaking of and happened when Yeshua was born of a virgin and became the Son of God and the Son of man.
This is where the term Monogenes was used. Not the word “genao” which was used for us in 1 Jn as you pointed out.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2008,11:42) Hi WJ,
So Jesus is not a God and you should not worship him?
NHNo he is not “a God” but is the “True God”.
Just listen to John, Thomas, Paul, Peter, and the Apostles that called him God and grabing his feet worshipped him.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 21 2008,11:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2008,11:42) Hi WJ,
So Jesus is not a God and you should not worship him?
NHNo he is not “a God” but is the “True God”.
Just listen to John, Thomas, Paul, Peter, and the Apostles that called him God and grabing his feet worshipped him.
I listened and hey told me something different
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 21 2008,13:21) ***they
Hi DKAnd as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And *they* came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. Matt 28:19
yes…but not the way they worshipped GOD his father…if you want we can get into yet ANOTHER debate on “proskyneo”
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 21 2008,11:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2008,11:42) Hi WJ,
So Jesus is not a God and you should not worship him?
NHNo he is not “a God” but is the “True God”.
Just listen to John, Thomas, Paul, Peter, and the Apostles that called him God and grabing his feet worshipped him.
Hi WJ,
Do you think showing honour to one who is greater
is the kind of worship our God wants you to show HIM?Your god is too small WJ
Jn4
20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2008,08:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 21 2008,11:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2008,11:42) Hi WJ,
So Jesus is not a God and you should not worship him?
NHNo he is not “a God” but is the “True God”.
Just listen to John, Thomas, Paul, Peter, and the Apostles that called him God and grabing his feet worshipped him.
Hi WJ,
Do you think showing honour to one who is greater
is the kind of worship our God wants you to show HIM?Your god is too small WJ
Jn4
20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Hi NH.I worship the Father also, and you should worship Yeshua.
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, *and unto the Lamb for ever and ever*. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four [and] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Rev 5:12-14
Your Savior, Jesus is to small.
You should honour him even as you honour the Father.
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23
You do honour the Father as God, dont you?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2008,11:07) Hi WJ,
So honour is the same as worship to you?
Your god is too small.
NHLook up the Greek. It actually can be a more powerful word than worship.
Honour Greek “timao”
1) to estimate, fix the value
a) for the value of something belonging to one's self
2) to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerate
We are to estimate and fix value on the Son as God. Nowhere else are we commanded to put this kind of value on any other.
For how valuable is God?
The same word is used to honour our Father and Mother, so we put value on our Father and Mother. But scriptures do not tell us to Honour our Father and Mother “as” we honour God.
Yeshua says we are to put this same honour, value on him.
Paul says that he pressed for the prize and that prize was Yeshua. The Father was not his goal. For he understood that having Yeshua was having God.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Phil 3:7-14
Hebrews says we are looking unto Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith and how he sits at the right hand of the Father, not beneath him, nor above him, but at his right hand. Heb 12:2
The focus is on Yeshua! Remember you can't have more than one master.
Also the Greek word “timao” means to revere and venerate.
Revere
: to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor
synonyms revere, reverence, venerate, worship, adore
Source!Remember we are to do these things “as” we would do unto the Father”.
Would the Father have us place this kind of devotion to any other being? Wouldn’t that be idolatry?
venerate
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion
Source!As unto the Father. Nowhere are we told to give this honour to any other as unto the Father other than Yeshua.
So the answer to your question is no, it is not the same as worship but is greater for it includes worship.
There is no distinction made to the worship of Yeshua and the Father in Revelation ch 5., or anywhere in the scriptures for that matter.
Your view of Yeshua is way to small NH. For you invision him as less than the “Image of the invisible God”. Therefore your image of God is less than God.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 16 2004,20:23) On the 2 Cor 13:14.
You miss my point. Why would both the Father and His spirit be mentioned in this verse? It wouldnt make sense — unless they are distinct persons.
How does the Father indwell people?By his Spirit.
Therefore the Father who is in Heaven, lives in us by his Spirit.
A good reason to distinguish the Father from his Spirit.
Otherwise you could think that the Father leaves Heaven and lives in us. But the mission of Jesus is to redeem creation so God can live in all, all the while God being in Heaven.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 24 2008,11:49) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2008,11:07) Hi WJ,
So honour is the same as worship to you?
Your god is too small.
NHLook up the Greek. It actually can be a more powerful word than worship.
Honour Greek “timao”
1) to estimate, fix the value
a) for the value of something belonging to one's self
2) to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerate
We are to estimate and fix value on the Son as God. Nowhere else are we commanded to put this kind of value on any other.
Jesus was and is worhipped/honoured as the son of God and the Lamb of God. Not as God though.It is written.
Hi WJ,
You are right that the prophets and the Son of God should be given more respect by those who claim to love God.Lk 20
8And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.9Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.
10And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
11And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
12And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
13Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
14But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
16He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
But Jesus told us to worship the Father in spirit and in truth.
He did not say the same about himself or the Spirit of God did he?Quote (t8 @ June 24 2008,12:44) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 16 2004,20:23) On the 2 Cor 13:14.
You miss my point. Why would both the Father and His spirit be mentioned in this verse? It wouldnt make sense — unless they are distinct persons.
How does the Father indwell people?By his Spirit.
Therefore the Father who is in Heaven, lives in us by his Spirit.
A good reason to distinguish the Father from his Spirit.
Otherwise you could think that the Father leaves Heaven and lives in us. But the mission of Jesus is to redeem creation so God can live in all, all the while God being in Heaven.
t8Ok, you just admitted that the Spirit is God.
But if the Father is somewhere off in heaven and his Spirit is everywhere, then that would mean the Spirit is greater than he. So does the Spirit just beam messages back to the Father in heaven?
What about these scriptures?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:23
So I suppose Yeshua did not literally mean what he said?
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2 Cor 6:16
Does Paul not literally mean God lives in us.?
If our bodies are the Temple of God, then that means that God lives in us. Therefore if the Spirit is just an amorphous force or power then that which lives in us is not God but just a force or power.
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Matt 12:28
The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Lk 16:16
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Lk 17:20, 21
Does not the Father God dwell in his Kingdom?
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph 4:6
Did Paul not literally mean that God the Father lives in us and not some amorphous Spirit or force or power or an “it” or “thing” as LU puts it?
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Eph 1:23
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Cor 13:5
Did Paul mean what he said, or was he inferring that some amorphous force or power lives in us and fills all things?
Does not Yeshua live in us also? If he fills all things is he less than God in nature?
The “HinoArianistic” (my new word) theology has many holes in it, many unanswered questions, and lots and lots of inference.
When are you guys gonna get it? God is Spirit, and that which proceeds from him to us is God. He fills all things, sees all things, hears all things, knows all things, and uphold all things, and by him all things consist. He is bigger than the heavens and all of creation.
David said…
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Pss 139:8
Was David just refering to some amorphous Spirit, force or Power, “it” or “thing”, or did David literally mean….
Thou art there!
Quote (t8 @ June 24 2008,12:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 24 2008,11:49) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2008,11:07) Hi WJ,
So honour is the same as worship to you?
Your god is too small.
NHLook up the Greek. It actually can be a more powerful word than worship.
Honour Greek “timao”
1) to estimate, fix the value
a) for the value of something belonging to one's self
2) to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerate
We are to estimate and fix value on the Son as God. Nowhere else are we commanded to put this kind of value on any other.
Jesus was and is worhipped/honoured as the son of God and the Lamb of God. Not as God though.It is written.
t8Where is it written?
Where is the scripture that reveals a distinction between the worship of Yeshua and the Father?
Why would the writers of the scriptures use the same word “proskuneo” for the worship of Yeshua that Yeshua also used in John 4:24 for the Father?
Where is there a NT example of one of Yeshua's followers “proskuneo” anyone other than Yeshua that was not discouraged by those being worrshipped?
Why is there not one example where Yeshua discouraged “proskuneo” on him and pointed them to the Father?
Yeshua is being worshipped as God because he is God.
It is written!
NH
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2008,12:49) But Jesus told us to worship the Father in spirit and in truth.
He did not say the same about himself or the Spirit of God did he?Then why did Yeshua not once discourage those who “proskuneod” him? Why would he use the same word for the worship of the Father that was being done to him?
Is there any other example of the followers of Yeshua “proskuneo” them that was not discouraged?
Can you find me an example like this…
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. Matt 28:9
Surely there were many opportunitys for this by the Apostles who were used in many miracles in the Acts.
Quote (gollamudi @ June 25 2008,04:31) Hi WJ,
Don't you believe that Jesus is the Son of God?
GMOf course I believe in Yeshua as the Son of God.
He is the “Monogenes” unique Son of God.
You have a Father dont you? Is your Father greater than you?
Maybe so. But is your Father more “man” than you?
You are 100% man but so is he. God is in a metaphysical class of his own. He is not limited to our finite minds.
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,,who is at the Father's side, has made him known. Jn 1:18
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