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I think he was Begotten..when I say that I am saying that he is the only son of god created directly by his hands…I dislike the word “created”..i choose to use the phrase “brought into existence”..I think that is more appropriate
Hi DK,
Thanks for your answer. Do you think that it is possible that God could reproduce in an asexual way and thus actually have a born son, not made with hands?
LUasexaul…with god all things are possible…now if you referring to his earthly birth…if thats the way he chose to do it then yes…If you are referring to him [christ] being “brought into existence” of course…with god all things are possible…
But I believe he Beget Christ thru the power of his spirit…and everything else was “brought into existence” by him thru christ…therefore nothing else is begotten
Hi again DK,
I did not mean asexual referring to His earthly birth. I think that His earthly birth began by the Holy Spirit implanting a holy seed (sperm) within Mary's egg which developed into a man's body prepared to have the pre-existing Spirit of the Son to dwell within.I meant that the Son of God came from being asexually reproduced within God before creation. I agree that all things are possible. It says that He was “BORN OF GOD”. What to you think about that?
I hope you are having a good day in Florida!
LUHi All!
Consider this.
If man brings birth to man then ontologically that man is 100% man.
If God begat God then ontologically that God would be 100% God. Or it would be a hybrid God or something else.
If God is light and brought birth to light, that would be a violation of the spiritual or molecular structure of a thing. For instance the Sun doesn’t bring birth to sun rays. Sun rays are the result of the existence of the Sun. The rays and the Sun are one. The rays emanate from the sun. Without the sun there are no rays, and without the rays there is no sun.
Yeshua is not a lesser light, or his light or rays would not be the Fathers light or rays, just as the rays of the sun. Scriptures say he is the True Light, just as the Father is the True Light.
Lest some would say we are the light of the world therefore Yeshua would be the same, not true. We are representatives of the “true light” which is Yeshua, but we are not “The light”. The light lives in us and shines through us.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Jn 1:7-9
All men should believe in Yeshua, Why? Because he is the “True Light” and not a representation of the light. We are a reflection of that light.
Yeshua is the “image of the invisible God”, not a reflection of the invisible God. There is a difference.
If you look in the mirror you see a reflection of your image. If you break the mirror your image remains, if I look directly at you the Image I see is you. Yet I am only seeing the visible image of you.
This is why Yeshua said…
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Jn 14:7
Only Yeshua could make this claim. For he is everything that the Father is in nature.
John the Baptist was not “the light”, yet Jesus said there was no greater born among men than he.
Yeshua the true Light fills all things just as the Father fills all things and by Yeshua all things consist. God did not bring birth to a lesser being than himself and make him “Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent and then use him to create all things.
LU contends that when God said, 'Let there be light: and there was light” in Gen 1:3, that this was when Yeshua was born as the light.
However this is a violation of the terms “God created” so “God said”.
If the light was “born” by the words “God said”, this would also mean the rest of creation would have been born, for instance…
“And God said”, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. Gen 1:6
“And God said”, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. Gen 1:9
“And God said”, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. Gen 1:11
Her inference or interpretation violates scriptural context.
Scriptures clearly teach that God alone, by himself created all things and without him was not anything made that was made. IMO.
In response to WJ,
I believe that the Son of God's nature was 100% of begotten God and could never have been the nature of 100% always existant God. An always existant God could not beget another 100% always existent God.I believe that the Son was born as the begotten God and His function was the light of life.
I do not believe that He was born omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. He was given all things that He had.The other things brought into existence for the most part during creation week God “said…” and then God “made…”. It never said that God “made” the light on day one.
LU
Quote (Lightenup @ June 21 2008,06:12) In response to WJ,
I believe that the Son of God's nature was 100% of begotten God and could never have been the nature of 100% always existant God. An always existant God could not beget another 100% always existent God.I believe that the Son was born as the begotten God and His function was the light of life.
I do not believe that He was born omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. He was given all things that He had.The other things brought into existence for the most part during creation week God “said…” and then God “made…”. It never said that God “made” the light on day one.
LU
LUI contend that God didnt begat God at all. This is simply your own inference and your own interpretation.
There is no scripture that claims Yeshua was “begotten” before the incarnation.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 21 2008,05:59) Hi All! Consider this.
If man brings birth to man then ontologically that man is 100% man.
If God begat God then ontologically that God would be 100% God. Or it would be a hybrid God or something else.
If God is light and brought birth to light, that would be a violation of the spiritual or molecular structure of a thing. For instance the Sun doesn’t bring birth to sun rays. Sun rays are the result of the existence of the Sun. The rays and the Sun are one. The rays emanate from the sun. Without the sun there are no rays, and without the rays there is no sun.
Yeshua is not a lesser light, or his light or rays would not be the Fathers light or rays, just as the rays of the sun. Scriptures say he is the True Light, just as the Father is the True Light.
Lest some would say we are the light of the world therefore Yeshua would be the same, not true. We are representatives of the “true light” which is Yeshua, but we are not “The light”. The light lives in us and shines through us.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Jn 1:7-9
All men should believe in Yeshua, Why? Because he is the “True Light” and not a representation of the light.
John the Baptist was not “the light”, yet Jesus said there was no greater born among men than he.
Yeshua the true Light fills all things just as the Father fills all things and by Yeshua all things consist. God did not bring birth to a lesser being than himself and make him “Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent and then use him to create all things.
LU contends that when God said, 'Let there be light: and there was light” in Gen 1:3, that this was when Yeshua was born as the light.
However this is a violation of the terms “God created” so “God said”.
If the light was “born” by the words “God said”, this would also mean the rest of creation would have been born, for instance…
“And God said”, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. Gen 1:6
“And God said”, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. Gen 1:9
“And God said”, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. Gen 1:11
Her inference or interpretation violates scriptural context.
Scriptures clearly teach that God alone, by himself created all things and without him was not anything made that was made. IMO.
W.J. In Genesis it says that “Let us make man in Our image.” So who is us and our. I think that Jesus created all by the power of the Father, because the Father existed always and is above all. ( Eph. 4: 6) So we have to remember that the Father is always behind whatever the Son does. By His Holy Spirit all of us are united as one. Because of the Holy Spirit we understand the things of God. The Holy Spirit is not a person. No trinity. As far as what defines what God is, just look what it says how many God's there are. God is only a tittle. Both the Father and the Son have names.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Irene @ June 21 2008,06:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 21 2008,05:59) Hi All! Consider this.
If man brings birth to man then ontologically that man is 100% man.
If God begat God then ontologically that God would be 100% God. Or it would be a hybrid God or something else.
If God is light and brought birth to light, that would be a violation of the spiritual or molecular structure of a thing. For instance the Sun doesn’t bring birth to sun rays. Sun rays are the result of the existence of the Sun. The rays and the Sun are one. The rays emanate from the sun. Without the sun there are no rays, and without the rays there is no sun.
Yeshua is not a lesser light, or his light or rays would not be the Fathers light or rays, just as the rays of the sun. Scriptures say he is the True Light, just as the Father is the True Light.
Lest some would say we are the light of the world therefore Yeshua would be the same, not true. We are representatives of the “true light” which is Yeshua, but we are not “The light”. The light lives in us and shines through us.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Jn 1:7-9
All men should believe in Yeshua, Why? Because he is the “True Light” and not a representation of the light.
John the Baptist was not “the light”, yet Jesus said there was no greater born among men than he.
Yeshua the true Light fills all things just as the Father fills all things and by Yeshua all things consist. God did not bring birth to a lesser being than himself and make him “Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent and then use him to create all things.
LU contends that when God said, 'Let there be light: and there was light” in Gen 1:3, that this was when Yeshua was born as the light.
However this is a violation of the terms “God created” so “God said”.
If the light was “born” by the words “God said”, this would also mean the rest of creation would have been born, for instance…
“And God said”, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. Gen 1:6
“And God said”, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. Gen 1:9
“And God said”, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. Gen 1:11
Her inference or interpretation violates scriptural context.
Scriptures clearly teach that God alone, by himself created all things and without him was not anything made that was made. IMO.
W.J. In Genesis it says that “Let us make man in Our image.” So who is us and our. I think that Jesus created all by the power of the Father, because the Father existed always and is above all. ( Eph. 4: 6) So we have to remember that the Father is always behind whatever the Son does. By His Holy Spirit all of us are united as one. Because of the Holy Spirit we understand the things of God. The Holy Spirit is not a person. No trinity. As far as what defines what God is, just look what it says how many God's there are. God is only a tittle. Both the Father and the Son have names.
Peace and Love Irene
IreneI agree that the “Us” is the Father, Yeshua and the Holy Spirit, that created all things, and without Yeshua was not anything made that was made. Jn 1:3
But if you believe in other “so-called gods” then that defines you as a Polytheist also.
And if you are inferring Yeshua is a god, then you disagree with the Hebrew scriptures that clearly say that YHWH alone, by himself created all things.
There is only one conclusion here…
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Jn 1:1
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,,who is at the Father's side, has made him known. Jn 1:18
One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Hi WJ,
God begets sons.Jesus is the son of God and there are other sons seen in Jb1,2,38etc
1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.Jb1
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.You say
“If God begat God then ontologically that God would be 100% God. Or it would be a hybrid God or something else.”We too are begotten sons of God.
Jn1
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.Spo if Jesus by being begotten of God is God are we too???
nick wrote:Hi WJ,
God begets sons.Jesus is the son of God and there are other sons seen in Jb1,2,38etc
1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.Jb1
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.You say
“If God begat God then ontologically that God would be 100% God. Or it would be a hybrid God or something else.”We too are begotten sons of God.
Jn1
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.Spo if Jesus by being begotten of God is God are we too???[/quote
I wanted to say something else to this, that I believe that sin is not imputed to us, rather then that we don't Sin. John says if you say you are not a Sinner the truth is not in you.
Peace and Love IreneHi WJ,
Do you think the gods of ps 82 ,86, 95, 97 are sons of God?
If they are then what is their ONTOLOLOGY?Psalm 82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.Psalm 86:8
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.Psalm 95:3
For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.Psalm 97:7
Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.Psalm 97:9
For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.Hi NH
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2008,06:51)
Hi WJ,
God begets sons.Jesus is the son of God and there are other sons seen in Jb1,2,38etc
No Begotten sons there. Since when are Angels “born” from God?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2008,06:51) 1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.Post incarnation.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2008,06:51)
Jb1
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.Again, no begotten sons. Satan was among them, did Yeshua keep company with satan? These were Angels. Was Yeshua an Angel? The JWs think so.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 21 2008,05:59)
“If God begat God then ontologically that God would be 100% God. Or it would be a hybrid God or something else.”Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2008,06:51) We too are begotten sons of God. Jn1
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.Spo if Jesus by being begotten of God is God are we too???
Sorry NH, Yeshua is the “Only” Begotten (Monogenes, unique) Son of God.
Hi WJ,
Does scripture speak specifically of the origin of the angels?
Jesus was never an angel as hebrews is at pains to point out.We who are sons are begotten sons of God [Jn1. 1John]
Hi WJ,
2Cor5
17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
So if Jesus was ONTOLOGICALLY God does that mean GOD was in GOD??
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2008,07:41) Hi WJ,
Do you think the gods of ps 82 ,86, 95, 97 are sons of God?
If they are then what is their ONTOLOLOGY?Psalm 82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.Psalm 86:8
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.Psalm 95:3
For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.Psalm 97:7
Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.Psalm 97:9
For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.
Hi NHYes, I realize men have always made idols and even called other men “gods”. This is why the Lord YHWH says he is the greatest among the gods. Why? Because there is no other God but One.
Even Paul calls them “so-called gods”.
This is what YHWH says concerning these other gods…
Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.Did you here that? There shall not be any gods formed before him or after him. How does a begotten god like Yeshua fit in this scripture? Even if he was “born” way back when, that would still mean he was formed.
Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Was a preexisting begotten god beside him?
Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Was a born god beside him? And what about “there is no God I know not any.”
Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:No born god here.
Isa 45:14
… Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.Needs no comment.
Jer 2:11
Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.[/quote]Agrees with Paul that they are no gods at all.
They changed their gods which are yet no gods.
YHWH also says…
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. Ex 23:13
So are you a Polytheist also NH?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2008,09:16) Hi WJ,
Surely you know “monogenes” does not mean he is the ONLY begotten Son?
NH“Only begotten”
Monogenes… strongs #3439
1) single of its kind, only
a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God
Only One Monogenes/Unique Son of God.
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