Theories

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 27 2009,14:12)

Hi WJ, Do you think the wide road that billions take is the safest?

Nick,
It is questionable that you are one of the few that take the narrow road. Your Jesus was not exalted. Mine was!

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 27 2009,05:42)

Brother's and sister's (and even those who don't consider me such because their theories will not allow it), I've been doing a lot of back reading here at HeavenNet.  I daresay that I've read nearly every thread now. My faith is shot.  I believe there is a God/Creator and that is all. Everyone has their theory and verse.  Everyone is so convinced they are right (most have 'heard from God' to deepend their brand of conviction). What I have found in comparing the scriptures to various theories is this – the bible can be manipulated to ANY idea out there.  And the Holy Spirit?  Well….”he” says different things to different people.  I think he enjoys sending children around the mullberry bush… Why should I believe any of it?  And if I am to believe some of it or portions of it…..which theories should I choose?  Yours? Sometimes I truly feel like God has abandoned me. Love, Mandy

Mandy,
You have the option of converting to Catholicism. It wasn't until the Protestant Reformation and “sola scriptura” that the gazillions of theories were born. One good thing about Catholicism is that it has for the most part always remained a unified body of “truth.”

As for me I could not convert to Catholicism because my faith does not stand in the wisdom of men.

thinker

[georg]

This is exactly what Mandy objects to. All the hassling that goes on, And I agree with Her. Why is that all of you have to do so? We all know by now what each of us believes. When you want to encourage some one, this is not the way to do it.
Mandy ignore, ignore, ignore. So sad to me.
Irene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (georg @ Oct. 28 2009,03:39)

This is exactly what Mandy objects to.  All the hassling that goes on,  And I agree with Her.  Why is that all of you have to do so?  We all know by now what each of us believes.  When you want to encourage some one, this is not the way to do it.   Mandy ignore, ignore, ignore.  So sad to me. Irene

You're right Irene. Marty started it with the trinity thing again. It just gets to a person after a while.

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 26 2009,22:10)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 27 2009,13:40) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 26 2009,17:56) Hi Douglas: You ask: Quote Finally, if anyone here has heard from God (not other people) that the Bible is the authoritative and complete will of God – let them say so now. God has spoken to me in an audible voice, through dreams and visions, and through prophets, and through His Word.  I have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in February 1980 and have been corrected by God my Father on various occasions.   He has been preparing me for the office of a Bishop which is an overseer in the church for the past 29 years, and this will materialize very shortly. Yes, absolutely, the bible is the Word of God, but it appears that some have added to it in order to justify the doctrine of the trinity. Love in Christ, Marty And so, Marty Why is it that no matter what the subject is the Trinitarian gets the shaft. Is it only Trinitarians that you believe are teaching false doctrines here? Quote (942767 @ Oct. 26 2009,17:56) Yes, absolutely, the bible is the Word of God, but it appears that some have added to it in order to justify the doctrine of the trinity. Are you looking in the mirror Marty? The same can be said of you. Your 29 years and confession that God has spoken to you makes you no better than others here. I also have heard his voice many times in my life and follow his guidance every day, and never once has he said… “The Trinity is False”! The concept that gets more opposition than any other is a good sign we are on the right track, for the enemy hates the truth of Gods word, doesn't he? See I read and study the same word as you. I could also boast and say I have been saved and filled with the Holy Spirit for 35 years, Pioneered and Patored 2 Chuches, Graduated from two Bible schools, and 1 graduate school with a Bachelor of Biblical Studies, and M.Div. and currently writing a Dissertation for graduation with a Doctorate, D.Min in January 2010. None of that means anything without a personal relationship with God though does it? How about that, like Mandy said everyone here has found their truth in the scriptures and claims to have it, so do you think that you are special and God has only revealed the truth to you? You can claim it if you like! So why don't you stop critisizing Trinitarians for adding to the Word when you have not a single shred of evidence for such. I can show you Marty where you have taken away from the word, but I don't go around accusing you a “Unitarian” for adding or taking away from the word do I? You know what Marty, personally I believe that if you are not a Trinitarian then you do not know the same Jesus that I know. But do I know your heart or would I cast judgment on everyone who doesn't believe in the Jesus I believe in, NO, because I leave the judgment of the heart to the Lord! But it doesn't change the fact that millions who have heard God's voice disagree with you! And by the way as far as signs and wonders, we are seeing miracles almost every day in our church, what are you waiting for? WJ Hi WJ: I never said that I was any better than anyone else.  All I did is respond to Douglas what I believe to be the truth, and I pray to God that if I am wrong in anything that I have stated that He correct me because I certainly do not to teach anything that is not the truth. I was speaking about the following scriptures when I said that they were added, and I believe that they were added to justify the “trinity doctrine”: Quote 1Jo 5:7   For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.   And I can't say for sure about Matthew 28:19, but there is a possiblity that it was changed in order to justify the “trinity doctrine”. I can only teach what I believe to be the truth, and that is what I have done.  Both you and I are accountable to God for what we teach. Ultimately, as I have said, if God confirms what I am teaching then it is Him that is saying that what I am teaching is correct, and that is what matters.  I know that if I am not teaching the truth, He cannot confirm it because He won't confirm a lie. I ask Him every day in prayer to correct me if I am not teaching the truth and if I am doing anything that is not in accordance with His will. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

If you think that signs and wonders are proof of anything then surely you must believe in the Trinity, for most signs and wonders are happening in Trinitarian churches through Trinitairans!

As far as Matt 28:19, your denial of it being scripture erodes anything that you teach from scripture as being truth!

How can you tell those who believe in the Trinity that the scriptures are corrupted and then proceed to teach them “Arian” or “Unitarian” theology from those same scriptures?

Blessings WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Do you think Jesus will know those who preach falsehood while they do miracles in his name?

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 28 2009,09:37)

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 26 2009,22:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 27 2009,13:40) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 26 2009,17:56) Hi Douglas: You ask: Quote Finally, if anyone here has heard from God (not other people) that the Bible is the authoritative and complete will of God – let them say so now. God has spoken to me in an audible voice, through dreams and visions, and through prophets, and through His Word.  I have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in February 1980 and have been corrected by God my Father on various occasions.   He has been preparing me for the office of a Bishop which is an overseer in the church for the past 29 years, and this will materialize very shortly. Yes, absolutely, the bible is the Word of God, but it appears that some have added to it in order to justify the doctrine of the trinity. Love in Christ, Marty And so, Marty Why is it that no matter what the subject is the Trinitarian gets the shaft. Is it only Trinitarians that you believe are teaching false doctrines here? Quote (942767 @ Oct. 26 2009,17:56) Yes, absolutely, the bible is the Word of God, but it appears that some have added to it in order to justify the doctrine of the trinity. Are you looking in the mirror Marty? The same can be said of you. Your 29 years and confession that God has spoken to you makes you no better than others here. I also have heard his voice many times in my life and follow his guidance every day, and never once has he said… “The Trinity is False”! The concept that gets more opposition than any other is a good sign we are on the right track, for the enemy hates the truth of Gods word, doesn't he? See I read and study the same word as you. I could also boast and say I have been saved and filled with the Holy Spirit for 35 years, Pioneered and Patored 2 Chuches, Graduated from two Bible schools, and 1 graduate school with a Bachelor of Biblical Studies, and M.Div. and currently writing a Dissertation for graduation with a Doctorate, D.Min in January 2010. None of that means anything without a personal relationship with God though does it? How about that, like Mandy said everyone here has found their truth in the scriptures and claims to have it, so do you think that you are special and God has only revealed the truth to you? You can claim it if you like! So why don't you stop critisizing Trinitarians for adding to the Word when you have not a single shred of evidence for such. I can show you Marty where you have taken away from the word, but I don't go around accusing you a “Unitarian” for adding or taking away from the word do I? You know what Marty, personally I believe that if you are not a Trinitarian then you do not know the same Jesus that I know. But do I know your heart or would I cast judgment on everyone who doesn't believe in the Jesus I believe in, NO, because I leave the judgment of the heart to the Lord! But it doesn't change the fact that millions who have heard God's voice disagree with you! And by the way as far as signs and wonders, we are seeing miracles almost every day in our church, what are you waiting for? WJ Hi WJ: I never said that I was any better than anyone else.  All I did is respond to Douglas what I believe to be the truth, and I pray to God that if I am wrong in anything that I have stated that He correct me because I certainly do not to teach anything that is not the truth. I was speaking about the following scriptures when I said that they were added, and I believe that they were added to justify the “trinity doctrine”: Quote 1Jo 5:7   For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.   And I can't say for sure about Matthew 28:19, but there is a possiblity that it was changed in order to justify the “trinity doctrine”. I can only teach what I believe to be the truth, and that is what I have done.  Both you and I are accountable to God for what we teach. Ultimately, as I have said, if God confirms what I am teaching then it is Him that is saying that what I am teaching is correct, and that is what matters.  I know that if I am not teaching the truth, He cannot confirm it because He won't confirm a lie. I ask Him every day in prayer to correct me if I am not teaching the truth and if I am doing anything that is not in accordance with His will. Love in Christ, Marty Marty If you think that signs and wonders are proof of anything then surely you must believe in the Trinity, for most signs and wonders are happening in Trinitarian churches through Trinitairans! As far as Matt 28:19, your denial of it being scripture erodes anything that you teach from scripture as being truth! How can you tell those who believe in the Trinity that the scriptures are corrupted and then proceed to teach them “Arian” or “Unitarian” theology from those same scriptures? Blessings WJ

Hi WJ:

Douglas asked:

Quote

Finally, if anyone here has heard from God (not other people) that the Bible is the authoritative and complete will of God – let them say so now.

And I gave him my answer, and so, if there is any question about what I said to him, then I pray that God would correct me.

I can only teach what I believe to be the truth.

I haven't seen any signs and wonders in any Trinitarian church that I have attended, at least not the type of healings that were done in the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles.

And no Apostle baptized people in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.  They baptized their converts in the name of Jesus.

And those labels, Arian or Unitarian or even Trinitarian don't mean anything to me.  I teach what I believe to be the truth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Not3in1]

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2009,10:18)

I teach what I believe to be the truth.

And so does everybody else…… My point exactly.

[942767]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 28 2009,11:01)

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2009,10:18) I teach what I believe to be the truth. And so does everybody else……  My point exactly.

Hi Mandy:

And I would expect anyone who is teaching the Word of God to teach what they believe to be the truth, however, if there is a disagreement in what is the truth, then it would seem logical to me to go and ask God what He meant by the scripture or scriptures or doctrines in question.

I have said that I pray to God that if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or doing anything that is not His will that He correct me. I don't want to teach anything that is not the truth.

And also, I have stated that I am waiting for Him to put me in the position of authority that He has promised. I am not going to put myself in that position. He said that He would do it.

And it is one thing for me or anyone else to say that they are teaching the truth, but if God confirms what someone is teaching, then He is the one who is saying that the teaching is correct, and that is what ultimately matters.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[georg]

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2009,11:19)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 28 2009,11:01) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2009,10:18) I teach what I believe to be the truth. And so does everybody else……  My point exactly. Hi Mandy: And I would expect anyone who is teaching the Word of God to teach what they believe to be the truth, however, if there is a disagreement in what is the truth, then it would seem logical to me to go and ask God what He meant by the scripture or scriptures or doctrines in question. I have said that I pray to God that if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or doing anything that is not His will that He correct me.  I don't want to teach anything that is not the truth. And also, I have stated that I am waiting for Him to put me in the position of authority that He has promised.  I am not going to put myself in that position.  He said that He would do it. And it is one thing for me or anyone else to say that they are teaching the truth, but if God confirms what someone is teaching, then He is the one who is saying that the teaching is correct, and that is what ultimately matters. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty! You don't get it. Why even say what you did? Leave it alone. There is no sense in all of this. It is obvious that we don't all agree on the same thing. Leave it up to God and stop hassling around and around it goes.
Irene

[Not3in1]

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2009,11:19)

….but if God confirms what someone is teaching, then He is the one who is saying that the teaching is correct, and that is what ultimately matters

If God confirms? Too subjective, bro.

Naturally people will look for confirmation in the smallest things to confirm their theories. I know. I've done it.

[942767]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 28 2009,11:52)

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2009,11:19) ….but if God confirms what someone is teaching, then He is the one who is saying that the teaching is correct, and that is what ultimately matters If God confirms?  Too subjective, bro. Naturally people will look for confirmation in the smallest things to confirm their theories.  I know.  I've done it.

Hi Mandy:

God spoke to men through a pastor of a church that I went to visit telling me that everything that he promised me would come to pass, but that the spirit of Saul would try to prevent it, and I am getting some resistance from the pastor of the church where I wll be ordained, and I am getting people like you who are trying to discourage me with your statements, but I know what God has said to me, and so, all that he promised me including the salvation of my family will certainly come to pass.

When God spoke to me through the pastor that I mentioned above, he said, about my wife, “she is trying to help you, she is letting you know when your zipper is down”. I had been complaining to God and to my wife that she wasn't helping me to do what God had called me to do, and my wife had a tendency to always check me out first thing to see if my zipper was down, and it was making me angry. There is no way that this pastor could have know this. I had never met him or even seen him for visiting his church. But God knows everything.

He is also currently speaking to me in a dream regarding my son, and I can see God working on His salvation by the dream that he has given me.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. I believe what He has said to me. No, there is not the slightest doubt.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[seekingtruth]

Mandy,
I have struggled with the same questions, the main one being how do I know truth. Even if accompanied with signs and wonders we are warned not to trust them, as in the last days there will be lying wonders and to some of those having worked miracles He will say to them “I never knew you”.

I finally found peace in the understanding that I only answer for myself. We are told that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. So as I see it it is up to God to lead me to all truth I'm only responsible to seek truth, be well studied, yet open minded.

I believe it is a relationship that God looks for, so when we go through those difficult times, as you are doing now, He wants us to draw closer, rest in His promises and be thankful for what He has done. I know that it is easier to say then do (believe me I know) but that is where faith comes in. Hang in there sis I will be praying for you.

My opinion – Wm

[seekingtruth]

Mandy,
I started a book of sorts a while ago, in case it may be of any help to you, this is the opening chapter:

Quote

Common Myth-Conceptions in the Church 2 Tim. 2:14-15 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Truth… If I state; “everything I say is a lie” am I telling the truth? Sometimes truth is complicated but that does not mean that it is not absolute. In other words there are not different versions of truth just different levels of understanding in different areas, of one all encompassing truth. Christianity is a classic example, all claim to have truth but even within the mainline churches one group’s beliefs conflict with another’s, while pointing to the same book as the source of their belief. Two factors influencing most Christians are: Scriptures – Scriptures are for the most part reliable, while a few areas in the original manuscripts may differ slightly, it is however some of the translations that are misleading or in a few cases completely in error in certain areas, it is however the whole of scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit by which we can know all truth. Traditions – Traditions are so entrenched that for many to even question them is tantamount to heresy. However some traditional interpretations are in error with some even distorting the nature of God, many of these can cause what appears to be conflicts, causing some to shipwreck their faith never knowing that there are other interpretations which will harmonize all of scripture. What we end up with are opinions, an opinion is a belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof. While I believe all pertinent truth is in scripture, it’s far too vast for any one person to see how it all interweaves. It seems to have been God's will that only those desiring truth over their opinions will be able to find it. This requires reasoning together, trying to understand others position and giving it an honest evaluation to what you know of scripture. It's hard to give up on a deeply held conviction, but a love for truth makes it possible to do so. This document addresses what I feel the whole of scripture and the Holy Spirit have revealed to me in my studies in the hopes it can help me further sort them out and to possibly be of some help to others. We have been taught for years to believe certain ways and accept it because greater men then us taught it as truth…

Once again all I can offer is my opinion for what it is worth.

Wm

[Not3in1]

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2009,12:51)

I believe what He has said to me.  No, there is not the slightest doubt.

Well, then press on.

I've also had “prophesies” over me…..some have come true while other's were way off base.  It's sort of like getting your fortune read, if you ask me.

I've also had visions of things that have come true.
I've had visions that have not come true.

Pastor's have mentioned one or two “key words” or phrases that I felt were confirmation on what I had been praying about.

I've had members of the church see something I had been struggling with…how could they know?

Well, I don't buy it.  Sorry.  You can, and I'm glad for you.

But the Spirit leads too many Christians in different directions to be true.  God seems to give too many Christians different ideas/theories/visions/insight about the bible for it to be true.

Could it be that you just want to be the Bishop?  It's your dream?  You believe it is your calling?  Perhaps you will even attain the position someday…..will that prove that what you “heard” was true and real?  Maybe.  It could also be that you are pursuing that position – other's know of your desire, and perhaps that position will be open and you will be more than willing to fill it?  Perhaps a lot things….situational things.  I don't mean to discourage you and if your faith is as strong as you say – and there is not the slightest doubt – then what I am saying should have zero affect on you.

The truth of the matter is, you hear one version of the truth.  You believe God is telling you things.  Okay.  But other's feel the same exact way.  And some of their beliefs are different from yours!  And maybe there is someone at your church who also believes that God is going to place THEM as Bishop!  Maybe they have “heard” from God, too?

Sorry,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 28 2009,12:52)

I finally found peace in the understanding that I only answer for myself.

Bro Wm,

Thank you for your posts. I appreciate them very much.

Yes, we answer only for ourselves…… It's a good thing, too, because we all hear differently from the same Spirit of “Truth”.

I truly believe God has abandoned us. And those clinging to “faith” will not dare to believe it. To believe it will mean damnation. But the signs are there…..we only “hear” things we want to hear. It's evident by the many who profess to know what truth is, and what God is saying about any one thing. It doesn't make sense when you really, truly step back and take a look at things.

Ever since I stopped talking to God….I don't hear a bloody thing. Some say I moved away and need to move back into fellowship. Phooey! God is Almighty and loving….why would little ol' me moving away from him cause him to clam up? Not say a word? Nah. He was never there to begin with. It was all in my mind and what I created.

Don't get me wrong. I think there is a Creator. I just don't think it works like the bible says it does. I don't know how it works. But it doesn't work like this….with a zillion Christians all hearing different things from the same God. And a zillion Christians all understanding differently the same book – the bible.

Sorry again (and thanks),
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (georg @ Oct. 28 2009,03:39)

This is exactly what Mandy objects to.  All the hassling that goes on,  And I agree with Her.  Why is that all of you have to do so?  We all know by now what each of us believes.  When you want to encourage some one, this is not the way to do it.   Mandy ignore, ignore, ignore.  So sad to me. Irene

You're sweet, Irene. Kathi, too!

I've just finally laid it all out and taken a hard look…..

I don't think I'll ever return to religion, or fully to the bible ever again.

If the bible was God's plan to keep us all in line and to learn about Him – it failed (unless you have faith to fill in all the HUGE GAPS). I don't have that kind of faith. Not anymore.

Love,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi Not3,
God will carry on whether or not you ignore Him.
All it takes is trust and a little understanding.

[942767]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 28 2009,14:45)

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2009,12:51) I believe what He has said to me.  No, there is not the slightest doubt. Well, then press on. I've also had “prophesies” over me…..some have come true while other's were way off base.  It's sort of like getting your fortune read, if you ask me. I've also had visions of things that have come true. I've had visions that have not come true. Pastor's have mentioned one or two “key words” or phrases that I felt were confirmation on what I had been praying about. I've had members of the church see something I had been struggling with…how could they know? Well, I don't buy it.  Sorry.  You can, and I'm glad for you. But the Spirit leads too many Christians in different directions to be true.  God seems to give too many Christians different ideas/theories/visions/insight about the bible for it to be true. Could it be that you just want to be the Bishop?  It's your dream?  You believe it is your calling?  Perhaps you will even attain the position someday…..will that prove that what you “heard” was true and real?  Maybe.  It could also be that you are pursuing that position – other's know of your desire, and perhaps that position will be open and you will be more than willing to fill it?  Perhaps a lot things….situational things.  I don't mean to discourage you and if your faith is as strong as you say – and there is not the slightest doubt – then what I am saying should have zero affect on you. The truth of the matter is, you hear one version of the truth.  You believe God is telling you things.  Okay.  But other's feel the same exact way.  And some of their beliefs are different from yours!  And maybe there is someone at your church who also believes that God is going to place THEM as Bishop!  Maybe they have “heard” from God, too? Sorry, Mandy

Hi Mandy:

No need to appologize to me for not believing me, but as you say, whatever you say or anyone says won't change what I know to be the truth.

I never asked God for the office of a Bishop. What I did ask Him is that He teach me His Word that He might teach others through me.

This is something that He wants to do through me, and I am available to Him, and will obey Him in whatever position He puts me in the body of Christ.

I will let you know when each and everything that He has promised me comes to pass.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. God is not a man that HE should lie, and neither is he the son of man that he should repent. If he has spoken that He will do this or that, I know that He is certainly able to accomplish what He has said.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[seekingtruth]

Mandy,
I am sorry to hear that. I will continue to pray for you.

But just to be clear, I no longer feel as though I'm “clinging to faith” (although there was a time) and since leaving the establishment of truth to God, I have seen conflicts and holes disappear. I accept that I still have errors in my doctrine, but as I stated I will continue to trust in God and as long as I'm willing and honest it's up to Him. You have achieved honesty in your faith, please try to draw near to Him He has not forsaken you. Remember we were warned that it will be perilous times in these last days.

8We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.

However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?”

I don't mean to push but it is out of concern, I nearly shipwrecked my faith during my time of trial, but having come through it I'm grateful for it, as it helped me take my faith to a whole new level.

My opinion – Wm

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