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My mind has been racing all day because I believe God has shown me some things are of great importance. You may not think they are to you, but I know they are to me, and I hope that by sharing them, some people will receive a blessing.
Through months of study, contemplation, and prayer on various topics related to the identity of Yeshua, I think God has shown me a clearer understanding of the Word. And this understanding has opened up some other implications that I hope to bring out in this post and perhaps a few more. Any feedback would be appreciated.
I'll start with the one verse that is used more than any other on this board in relation to who who thing Yeshua is
John 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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Many people on this board, as well as around the world for ages, have wrung this verse out, tried their hand at Greek translation, and argued over the “proper” way to translate it. I think, however, God had His hands all over the translators and that we have the best translation. It is then up to us to figure out what it means as written.- 1:1a – “In the beginning was the Word” – beginning of what? God does not have a beginning, so how can 1:1a agree with 1:1c?
- 1:1b – “and the Word was with God” – one of the many meanings of “with” is “at the same time as”. This meaning goes rather nicely with 1:1a to establish the eternal nature of the Word
- 1:1c – “and the Word was God” – slam! So obvious, is it not? The Word was God! Hard to refute those words, though many have tried. I never felt easy about their explanations, nor did could I reconcile the Word being God up against other verses such as 1 Cor. 8:6. What does it mean?
At this point, I want to work on what I believe the Word to be. My next post (hopefully) will be on the Light.
How did God reveal Himself to the people of the OT? Paul gives us a clue about one way God is revealed in Romans 1:20: through creation. If that is so, one would do well to note that pre-birth Yeshua, as the Word, was the means by which all things were created (Colossians 1:18). Yet, does viewing creation tell us enough about who God is so He will be known?
The words of a song I once liked to listen to came to mind recently. The song is Standing up for Nothing by Caedmon's Call and the words that came to mind were:
Well, I've never seen my congressman,
But I can't deny that he exists.
'Cause I've seen his legislation pass;
I've seen his name on the ballot listThese lines seem simple and uninspiring at first until you think about them.
Go to biblegateway.com and search for the phrase “word of the LORD”. For the NASB you will get 255 verses. Take a moment and read some of them, but try to do so in context. One thing you will come away from this exercise understanding is that YHWH made Himself known through His word.
Have you ever had a penpal or chatted with someone extensively via phone or Internet? Have you done this with anyone you've never met face-to-face? If you've done so you've come to know these people through their words. Unless you've met or at least seen pictures, you have no idea what they look like. To you, they may just as well be invisible. However, like the congressman in the song above, you know they aren't, you know they exist.
The OT people knew God existed, they knew His creation. But since God is invisible, they never saw Him. Therefore, they came to know Him through his promises and actions – through His Word. His Word revealed the character of God, His plans, His concerns, His love. To the people of the OT, His Word was God.
Fast forward to the time of the New Testament. It was time to personify the Word. To give it new life, to give it a form that could communicate with people as never before. A form that people could see, could talk to, could even laugh with. A form that was just like them, flesh and blood. A form that was man, or rather the Son of Man. The Son of God.
And the Son continued to do the very same things that the Word did before. He revealed God's love, His promises, His character. He taught, he healed, he cast out demons. Yeshua performed miracles that had not been seen since the time of Moses and Elijah. And these miracles, these healings, these words, all came from the Father through His Son, Yeshua. Never before had God been revealed so personally.
John 14:9-11 – Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
This all culminated to the time of Yeshua's ultimate purpose on earth: to redeem Man through his death, burial, and resurrection. And although the Apostles were in the presence of the Word personified, and witnessed his anointed teachings and miracles, none saw past his death and truly believed in the power of God until they experienced the empty tomb. Even then, some doubted.
Imagine what the doubter Thomas felt when he saw the risen Yeshua and said “My Lord and my God!”. He was standing in the presence of the ultimate revelation of God, the one who was image of the invisible God. Just as the OT people had come to know God through His Word, so had the Apostles through His Word in human form.
But the story does not end there, nor has it ended today. Yeshua ascended back to his Father to once again be the instrument of creation (Matthew 27:7, John 14:3) and to await the day of his return to call God's children home. He is our mediator and great high priest. He is our savior and Lord.
Yet how can we know God now? Do we still receive the Word of God as they did in the OT? Do we have the privilege of having Yeshua in the flesh standing before us and teaching us? No, but once more God has made a way.
John 14:16-20 – “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.”
John 16:7-15 – “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
The Holy Spirit that was in Yeshua would be passed on to Christians. It is essentially the new Word of God to us. Yeshua did not leave us without a way to know God. We know Him t
hrough the Spirit that is within us. The Spirit guides us and provides the connection between us, Yeshua, and God. Yeshua said “In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.”But what of the rest of the world? Who will show them God? Why do you think that the Holy Spirit was sent to us? Why do you think that Yeshua said he would be in us? The Word now resides in us, and we are now responsible for revealing God to the world.
More to come in the future, and I hope to bring the Light into the discussion.
Hi kj,
So do you believe the Son of God is God Himself?
Do you believe God came in flesh?
Do you believe the Word was not with God.Nick,
No I do not think the Son is God. I believe the Word was manifest in the Son of God. I believe Yeshua was the ultimate revelation of God because he showed the world who God is. He was more than just the Word, he was the Word become flesh, just as it says.However, it would be difficult to distinguish the Word from God before Yeshua came. I believe reconciled what Adam could not: he is a man born into perfection and communion with God who died in that same perfection. But there is one difference — he died with the sins of the world upon him. Yet, he was still the last Adam.
Through Yeshua, the Word was more than it had ever been. As Yeshua, man became reconciled to God. Through Yeshua, the world could see and experience the only perfect image of God. As His children, we are also His image, but we will never be the perfect image Yeshua is. Through Yeshua, the world came to truly know God.
Man can only understand Man, and that is why it took the Son of Man, Son of God to show us the reality of God.
Hi KJ,
So what, if anything, changed when Jesus was anointed by God at the Jordan?
Whay is not scripture replete with miracles before that time?
Was Christ a superman, unlike to us and all powerful before then?1Jn4
“2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Nick,
Yes, Yeshua came as Superman. We all thought he was the Son of God, but he is really the son of Jor-El. He merely wore robes instead of tights and a cape in those days
.They didn't hang him on a cross, they threw him in a kryptonite pit.
Jeepers, what was that question about? And what's with the 1 John verses? You're method of listing verses that are underhanded accusations is undesirable. I've seen you do that on many occasions to several posters.
Yeshua came in the flesh, I say as much many times in many posts. I do not claim he was anything more than the Bible says he is. If the Bible does not record miracles before his baptism (and it does not), either he did none or they were not of note. Only Yeshua and God knows.
I appreciate any feedback but I prefer that you leave the accusatory verses out in the future. If this offends you, forgive me.
Hi KJ,
Many see God in flesh in the babe in swaddling clothes and your post was unclear in this regard.
What of the anointing?Hi KJ,
You may well agree but it needs to be made clear.The point is Jesus needed to be like us in all ways [except sin] so we can follow him.
If he came with ANY advantages then we cannot do so.
Thus it was God in him, and in us that worked.Phil 2
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Nick,
Are you saying Yeshua was merely an anointed man? Your posts are leading to that IMO. What kept him from sin? What was his redemptive value? Merely being the only sinless man?
Did he receive full knowledge of his mission before or after his anointing?
And how is Yeshua devalued if he came with any advantages? Do you have scripture to support this? Are you saying being born of the union of the Holy Spirit and a woman is not an advantage?
Your implications lead to the idea that perhaps the Word did not become flesh until the anointing. Which is possible if you think about it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the only time that God actually spoke in the NT at the very same time of Yeshua's anointing? Very interesting.
John's words in John 1 do NOT keep this from being possible. In fact, this makes sense contextually. John does not speak of the birth narrative, and John the Baptist is mixed in with the first 14 verses.
This may be something worth looking into…thanks for the potential insight!
Quote (kejonn @ July 11 2007,23:18) Nick, Are you saying Yeshua was merely an anointed man? Your posts are leading to that IMO. What kept him from sin? What was his redemptive value? Merely being the only sinless man?
Did he receive full knowledge of his mission before or after his anointing?
Did he receive full knowledge of his mission before or after his anointing?
Your implications lead to the idea that perhaps the Word did not become flesh until the anointing. Which is possible if you think about it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the only time that God actually spoke in the NT at the very same time of Yeshua's anointing? Very interesting.
John's words in John 1 do NOT keep this from being possible. In fact, this makes sense contextually. John does not speak of the birth narrative, and John the Baptist is mixed in with the first 14 verses.
This may be something worth looking into…thanks for the potential insight!
Hi KJ,
“Are you saying Yeshua was merely an anointed man? Your posts are leading to that IMO. What kept him from sin? What was his redemptive value? Merely being the only sinless man”Yes.
His origins are another matter but he was like to us when he came in flesh with NO advantages.
He was kept from sin by his Father, Who was with him [Acts 10].“Did he receive full knowledge of his mission before or after his anointing?”
He agreed to come and knew all the implications when in heaven before the kenosis and conception.
“Your implications lead to the idea that perhaps the Word did not become flesh until the anointing. Which is possible if you think about it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the only time that God actually spoke in the NT at the very same time of Yeshua's anointing? Very interesting.”
He became flesh by conception in Mary.
God spoke also in Jn12.28.
He was an ordinary man[Is53] as his family's neighbours commented, who did not become empowered till baptised in the Spirit[and water] at the Jordan.Hi KJ,
Jesus is the prophet spoken of by Moses.ACTS 3
” 22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. “
Was there any prophet who worked in his own powers?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2007,07:26) Hi KJ,
“Are you saying Yeshua was merely an anointed man? Your posts are leading to that IMO. What kept him from sin? What was his redemptive value? Merely being the only sinless man”Yes.
His origins are another matter but he was like to us when he came in flesh with NO advantages.He was kept from sin by his Father, Who was with him [Acts 10].
If that is the case, what was the necessity of being born of the Holy Spirit and Mary? Was the redemptive quality of his life being the only begotten Son of God? If he had never been anointed by the Holy Spirit, would his death have been sufficient for the atonement of sins?Acts 10 says nothing (that I can see) of the Father keeping Yeshua from sin. Rather, I would believe that this came from not being born under the spirit of the ruler of this world. Since he was conceived of the Holy Spirit, it was that component of his existance that allowed him to resist sin.
Biblical teaching is that inheritance is passed on through the father. Since Yeshua's Father was God, he did not inherit the sinful nature. Just an opinion, nothing scriptural to back it up ATM.
Quote “Did he receive full knowledge of his mission before or after his anointing?” He agreed to come and knew all the implications when in heaven before the kenosis and conception.
Can't say I go along with the word “agreed”. What proof do we have that such took place before his birth?Quote “Your implications lead to the idea that perhaps the Word did not become flesh until the anointing. Which is possible if you think about it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the only time that God actually spoke in the NT at the very same time of Yeshua's anointing? Very interesting.”
He became flesh by conception in Mary.
God spoke also in Jn12.28.
He was an ordinary man[Is53] as his family's neighbours commented, who did not become empowered till baptised in the Spirit[and water] at the Jordan.
Yes, Yeshua the man became flesh by conception. But can we say for certainty that the Word did not habitate Yeshua at the moment of anointing? It seems odd that John would speak of the Word and intermingle John the Baptist with the verses on the Word. John did not even speak of the birth of Yeshua.In this way, the Word would become flesh by inhabiting Yeshua. It would not be a “possession” but the means by which Yeshua perfomed miracles and thoroughly represent God in the flesh. The presence of the Word in Yeshua would also bring the knowledge of the creation. Until this time, nobody really knew who he was and it would be hide the one who was the “image of the invisible God”.
And as far as being ordinary, Is 53 only speaks of his physical appearance. What of his knowledge? In Luke 2:47, it tells us that at the age of 12, all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and answers.
This is all speculation because there really is no scriptural evidence to refute or support. But as you said, there were no miracles recorded before Yeshua's baptism. The Word was an instrument of creation, and as such would be a instrument of power inhabiting Yeshua. We know that God's spoken word has power to create and perform miracles and to give life.
Furthermore, it is odd that we don't have any record of teaching that Yeshua did before his baptism (other than Luke 2:47). Did he always have full knowledge of his time in heaven before his birth, or did that come upon him at his anointing?
Also, what blinded Satan to who Yeshua was until after the baptism? No record of Satan trying to tempt Yeshua until after his baptism. Surely he would have constantly barraged Yeshua prior to his anointing had he known who he was.
Just points to ponder.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2007,08:58) Hi KJ,
Jesus is the prophet spoken of by Moses.ACTS 3
” 22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. “
Was there any prophet who worked in his own powers?
Yes, but there is one difference. Which prophets performed miracles without receiving word from God or by doing say in God's name? Yeshua performed many of his miracles without either of these.Elijah called out to God to perform his miracles. Moses was informed of what he needed to do by YHWH Himself before the miracles he performed took place. Yet Yeshua performed many of his without these components. Was it merely by prior authority or by the inhabitation of the Word?
Hi KJ,
Did Jesus not say he did nothing without God?
Did Jesus works in his own powers? What did he give up then?
In what way do we have similar powers to be like him?
Surely our only powers are those of God given to us in the same way as Jesus was anointed of God.;[Acts 10]The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
Luk 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
Luk 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Thanks Ken. I had already pointed out Luke 2:47 but had only read the passage and surrounding verses in m NASB bible. I found out that there are basically 2 different translations of 2:49. Must be the underlying manuscripts used.
NASB: And He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?” (NASB ©1995)
GWT: Jesus said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Didn't you realize that I had to be in my Father's house?”(GOD'S WORD®)
KJV: And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
ASV: And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? knew ye not that I must be in my Father's house?
BBE: And he said to them, Why were you looking for me? was it not clear to you that my right place was in my Father's house?
DBY: And he said to them, Why is it that ye have sought me? did ye not know that I ought to be occupied in my Father's business?
ERV: And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be in my Father's house?
WEY: “Why is it that you have been searching for me?” He replied; “did you not know that it is my duty to be engaged upon my Father's business?”
WBS: And he said to them, How is it that ye sought me? knew ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
WEB: He said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Didn't you know that I must be in my Father's house?”
YLT: And he said unto them, 'Why is it that ye were seeking me? did ye not know that in the things of my Father it behoveth me to be?'Hi KJ,
His father had trained him well.Heb 12
” 5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;”
Heb 2
“16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
Heb 5
” 7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; '
Looked at the Greek of the KJV manuscript on blueletterbible.org ofr Luke 2:49. Nice tool BTW. The Greek word that is translated as “Father's business” is “pater” which just means “Father”. The KJV and others added “house” and used “about” for the Greek word “en” which is usually translated “in”. I don't have access to the manuscript the NASB uses so they might have just added “house” because Yeshua was in the temple learning.
Hi KJ,
Acts 10
” 36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”
Hi KJ,
Acts 2
” 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: “Nick,
Still no scriptural evidence that it was the Father who kept Yeshua from sinning. That's what I was looking for in Acts 10 because you stated “He was kept from sin by his Father, Who was with him [Acts 10].”Acts 10:38 – “You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”
This verse says he went about doing good (if that is what you read as “not sinning”) but includes “how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power”. So one could read anything into this.
In fact, one version of the Bible reads
WEY: It tells how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, so that He went about everywhere doing acts of kindness, and curing all who were being continually oppressed by the Devil–for God was with Jesus.
When I first read 10:38, I pulled the same from it, that Yeshua was going around “doing good things”, not being sinless. I again assert that his conception by the Holy Spirit was the reason he remained sinless. His spiritual side was guided from birth by the Holy Spirit rather than the spirit of this world.
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