The word and the flesh

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ July 12 2007,15:09)

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 12 2007,01:36)

Jesus Christ is called “the mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6.

Why do people keep bringing this verse up? There is absolutely no evidence this verse applies to Yeshua. Besides that, is says “And His name will be called”. Jehu means “He is God”. Welcome, glorious Jehu! It seems the right hand is taken but perhaps the left will suffice?

The rest of the post works off of the false premise that Isaiah 9:6 is about Yeshua. Snip.

Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

So tell us kejonn. Who is this Child that was born? Who is this Son that was given, the One called “The mighty God”?

Jesus is The mighty God.

God said it. I believe it. That settles it.

July 12, 2007 at 12:23 pm#59314

Participant

CB,

Whoa, you've provided definitive proof. I guess no children were born after this prophecy. Perhaps the rest were created as Adam was?

Where was Yeshua called the “Mighty God” outside of this verse, which may or may not be about him?

Unless you can provide evidence, this verse should be left off of all further “proof” that Yeshua is God.

July 12, 2007 at 12:24 pm#59315

Participant

CB,

BTW, “son” was not capitalized in Isaiah 9:6. Clever of you to capitalize it to make others think it is more than what is written.

July 12, 2007 at 1:15 pm#59318

Participant

kejonn.

Before you falsely accuse me of adding capitalization take a look at the MKJV

Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
MKJV

Quote

Where was Yeshua called the “Mighty God” outside of this verse, which may or may not be about him?

Before you ask that question you better first look at this verse.

So tell us kejonn. Who is this Child that was born? Who is this Son that was given, the One called “The mighty God”?

Jesus is The mighty God

God said it. I believe it. That settles it.

Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

July 12, 2007 at 1:23 pm#59319

Participant

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Undoubtedly, Jesus knew the difference in the Greek between “I am” and “I have been.” Jesus did not use the form “I have been” in the Greek, but used the form “I am.”

Thus clearly the Jews understood that Jesus was Himself claiming to be the Great I AM God and were enraged and wanted Him dead.

See the words of Jehovah (Jesus)

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Jesus said.

John 8:24 …for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus Himself laid down the line – unless one believes Him for whom He says He is – the ego eimi, the great I AM – one will die in one's sins. There is no salvation in a false Christ. If we are to be united with Christ to have eternal life, then we must be united with the true Christ, not a false representation. It is out of love that Christ uttered John 8:24. We would do well to heed His words.

Why don't you people open up your eyes and look! Just admit your mistake instead of using the Holy Bible to try to cover your errors. It is better for you that you give up your false religions. The Bible is God's Word and it is to be used to establish truth, but you folk use it to fight against the truth! The truth is bigger than what you are, so it is pointless trying to fight it.

The Light was shining in darkness; but “the darkness apprehended it not.” John 1:5

July 12, 2007 at 3:21 pm#59326

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 13 2007,01:15)

kejonn.

Before you falsely accuse me of adding capitalization take a look at the MKJV

Quote

Where was Yeshua called the “Mighty God” outside of this verse, which may or may not be about him?

Before you ask that question you better first look at this verse.

So tell us kejonn. Who is this Child that was born? Who is this Son that was given, the One called “The mighty God”?

Jesus is The mighty God

God said it. I believe it. That settles it.

Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

CB,

Please provide another verse where Yeshua is called “Mighty God”. If you cannot, then this verse stands on its own and cannot be definitively attributed to Yeshua. He was not the only son to be born to Israel. There are still sons being born every day to that nation.

I cannot access MKJV online. It crashes my browser whenever I try. But then again, should we just assume that if one man (yes only one man was involved with the MKJV project) captitalized “son” in this verse that makes it Yeshua? Too far of a stretch.

The simple gospel as provided by Yeshua himself is the gnat. The Trinity is the camel.

July 12, 2007 at 4:28 pm#59343

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 13 2007,01:23)

Genesis 27:24 – And he said, “Are you really my son Esau?” And he said, “I am.”

Guess Esau was God too, huh?

Besides, does the structure of that sentence even make sense to you? “Before Abraham was, I am”? He was merely saying he existed before Abraham. Again, people reading so much into two words. The Jews were not going to stone him for the statement “I am” but for saying he existed before Abraham, thus attributing powers to himself that no others could claim.

Quote

John 8:24 …for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.

–sigh– Its amazing what Trinity filters will do for people. Let me ask you, where do we find in the OT that the Messiah would be God in the flesh? Is this just some New Testament revelation? The OT Messiah was just that, a Messiah. No “God in the flesh” Messiah.

Take a moment and read Matthew 24:5, Mark 13:6, Luke 21:8, John 4:26. Read them with the other verses around them and note the context. All speak of who “I am” is in the case of Yeshua: the Messiah, not God Himself.

John 4:25-26 – The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

.
Messiah, not God.

Quote

Your advice is best heeded by yourself. Trinity is extra-biblical. It was not taught to the 1st century Christians, was not taught by the Son of God himself. Are we to asume that his Gospel was not the right one?

July 12, 2007 at 6:09 pm#59359

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2007,03:21)

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 13 2007,01:15)

kejonn.

Before you falsely accuse me of adding capitalization take a look at the MKJV

Quote

Where was Yeshua called the “Mighty God” outside of this verse, which may or may not be about him?

Before you ask that question you better first look at this verse.

So tell us kejonn. Who is this Child that was born? Who is this Son that was given, the One called “The mighty God”?

Jesus is The mighty God

God said it. I believe it. That settles it.

Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

CB,

The simple gospel as provided by Yeshua himself is the gnat. The Trinity is the camel.

Keronn

Isa 9:

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Who else but Yahshua would have a goernment whose increase will not end and who will sit upon the throne of David?

Who else will extablish it with judgment and with justice from hence forth even “Forever”?

The answer is the last part of the verse!

**The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this**

Kejonn, it seems to me you will go to many extremes to disprove the trinity. When there is no disproving it.

The Trinitarian view has been going on for thousands of years and it will continue because there is no disproving it.

However overwhelming evidence in scriptures shows that Yeshua is God in the flesh!

July 12, 2007 at 6:23 pm#59360

Participant

kejonn

You say…

Quote

I thought you said the “Word” Jesus did not exist as a person before his natural birth?

You are right the structure of the sentence dosnt make since which is all the reason more to believe that Jesus is claiming to be YHWH the “I am”.

How about this one…

Jn 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And just to be sure they clearly understood what he was saying he says to them…

Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Of course many didnt believe these hard sayings of his and turned back…

Jn 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

July 12, 2007 at 9:29 pm#59385

Participant

Hi W,
It is not the useful work of any man to disprove the trinity.
It is not biblical.
It disproves itself.

You say
“Who else but Yahshua would have a goernment whose increase will not end and who will sit upon the throne of David?

Who else will extablish it with judgment and with justice from hence forth even “Forever”?

The answer is the last part of the verse!

**The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this**”
“
Does it surprise you still that all the works of the Son of God
are done by the power of his God indwelling him?
He did say so.

July 12, 2007 at 9:53 pm#59387

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2007,07:21)

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 13 2007,01:15)

kejonn.

Before you falsely accuse me of adding capitalization take a look at the MKJV

Quote

Where was Yeshua called the “Mighty God” outside of this verse, which may or may not be about him?

Before you ask that question you better first look at this verse.

So tell us kejonn. Who is this Child that was born? Who is this Son that was given, the One called “The mighty God”?

Jesus is The mighty God

God said it. I believe it. That settles it.

Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

CB,

The simple gospel as provided by Yeshua himself is the gnat. The Trinity is the camel.

Kejonn
Another version with capitalization. So don't accuse me of adding them.

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (NKJV)

Kejonn. You cannot throw away Isaiah 9:6 because it does does agree with your arian doctrine.

So tell us kejonn. Who is this Child that was born? Who is this Son that was given, the One called “The mighty God”?

There is a multitude of other verses that declare Jesus's divinity. I know this upsets the Watchtower folk and that's their problem, but here are a few more.

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Compare
MATTHEW 13:13-15 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (15) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and {their} ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with {their} eyes, and hear with {their} ears, and should understand with {their} heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
With
ISAIAH 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. (10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

JOHN 10:30-33 I and {my} Father are one. (31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

JOHN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew {it} unto you.

Compare
JEREMIAH 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation.
With
MATTHEW 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, {thou} that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under {her} wings, and ye would not! (38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
JOHN 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
Compare

JOHN 12:37-38 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: (38) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
JOHN 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
With
ISAIAH 6:1-5 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. (2) Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. (3) And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, {is} the Lord of hosts: the whole earth {is} full of his glory. (4) And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. (5) Then said I, Woe {is} me! for I am undone; because I {am} a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.<<<

ROMANS 9:5 Whose {are} the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ {came}, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. {RSV, NIV: “Christ, who is God over all”}

PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Compare
Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre
With
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

2 PETER 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us
through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: {RSV, NIV: “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”}

Compare
Psa 102:24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
With
HEBREWS 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: {God the Father calls the Son “Lord.”

REVELATION 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Arche (“Beginning”) The Greek for “beginning” is arche, from which we get our word “architect.” Its literal meaning, according to Greek scholars, is “origin, active cause, source, uncreated principle.” So the above verse is describing Jesus as the “architect,” or Creator of the Universe. In Rev 21:6 “arche” is applied to the Father, so it can't possibly mean “created being,” as Jehovah's Witnesses and other heretics maintain.

Compare
Psa 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
With
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

REVELATION 5:8 . . . the four beasts and four {and} twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Compare
REVELATION 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

With
Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Compare
1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:

With
MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .

Compare
JEREMIAH 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
With
MATTHEW 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Compare
DANIEL 9:9 To the Lord our God {belong} mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
LUKE 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
With
LUKE 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
MARK 2:5-10 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this {man} thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

ACTS 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon {God}, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;

(The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.)
Blasphemy can only be committed against God.

Compare
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Compare
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

With
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God)

Jehovah said: “…and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced” (Zec. 12:10). The preceding verses (1, 4, 7, 8) identify Jehovah as the one speaking. Christ is the one who was pierced, and John 19:37 clearly tells us that this prophecy was fulfilled in His crucifixion.

*EZEKIEL 34:11-12,15,22,31 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, {even} I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. (12) As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep {that are} scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day . . . (15) I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God . . . (22) Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle . . . (31) And ye my flock, the f
lock of my pasture, {are} men, {and} I {am} your God, saith the Lord God. {cf. Ps 23:1, 80:1, 100:3, Is 40:11, Jer 23:1, 31:10}

+JOHN 10:7,11,14-16,26-29 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep . . . (11) I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep . . . (14) I am the good shepherd, and know my {sheep}, and am known of mine. (15) As the Father knoweth me, even so I know the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. (16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, {and} one shepherd . . . (26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any {man} pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave {them} me, is greater than all; and no {man} is able to pluck {them} out of my Father's hand. {cf. Ezek 34:23, Mic 5:4, Zech 13:7 w/Mt 26:31, Heb 13:20, 1 Pet 5:4, Rev 7:17}

*ISAIAH 40:8 . . . the word of our God shall stand for ever.

+MATTHEW 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

*PSALM 148:1-2 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights. (2) Praise ye him, all his angels : praise ye him, all his hosts.

+HEBREWS 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

*ISAIAH 62:5 For {as} a young man marrieth a virgin, {so} shall thy sons marry thee: and {as} the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, {so} shall thy God rejoice over thee. {cf. Is 54:5-6, Hos 2:16-20}

+REVELATION 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. {cf. Mt 24:44, 25:1,6,13, Jn 3:29, Rev 21:9}

*DEUTERONOMY 10:17 For the Lord your God {is} God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, . . . {cf. Ps 136:2-3, 1 Tim 6:15}

+REVELATION 17:14 . . . the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .{cf. Rev 19:16}

*ISAIAH 48:17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; . . . {cf. 10:20, 43:3, 1 Sam 2:2, Ps 89:18}

+ACTS 3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; . . . (14) But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, . . . {cf. Acts 2:27 w/ Ps 16:10, Is 49:7}

*REVELATION 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: . . . {cf. Is 60:19}

+REVELATION 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb {is} the light thereof.

*DEUTERONOMY 32:39 . . . neither {is there any} that can deliver out of my hand. {cf. Jn 10:29}

+JOHN 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any {man} pluck them out of my hand.

*PROVERBS 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son {in whom} he delighteth.

+REVELATION 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

*PSALM 62:12 . . . unto thee, O Lord, {belongeth} mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work. {cf. Is 40:10}

+MATTHEW 16:27 For the Son of man shall . . . reward every man according to his works.

+REVELATION 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward {is} with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

*EZEKIEL 34:17 . . . Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

+MATTHEW 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth {his} sheep from the goats:

*GALATIANS 1:4-5 . . . according to the will of God and our Father: (5) To whom {be} glory for ever and ever. Amen.

+2 PETER 3:18 . . . our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him {be} glory both now and for ever. Amen. {cf. Heb 13:21}

*JOHN 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and {of} the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. {cf. Mt 21;31, Lk 7:28, Acts 1:3, Rom 14:17, 1 Cor 4:20, 15:50, Col 4:11, Rev 12:10}

+COLOSSIANS 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated {us} into the kingdom of his dear Son: {cf. Jn 18:36, Eph 5:5, 2 Tim 4:1, Heb 1:8, 2 Pet 1:1}

*ROMANS 7:22 . . . the law of God . . . {cf. Ps 19:7}

+GALATIANS 6:2 . . . fulfil the law of Christ.

*ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of God . . .

+ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of Christ, .. .

*PSALM 71:5 For thou {art} my hope, O Lord God: . . .

+1 TIMOTHY 1:1 . . . Lord Jesus Christ, {which is} our hope;

*TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

+ACTS 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

*REVELATION 22:6 . . . the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel . . .

+REVELATION 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches . . .

*ROMANS 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called {to be} an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, {cf. Mk 1:14, Rom 15:16, 1 Thess 2:2,8-9, 1 Pet 4:17}

+ROMANS 15:19 . . . I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. {cf. Rom 1:16, 1 Cor 9:12, 2 Cor 2:12, 1 Thess 3:2}

*1 CORINTHIANS 15:9 . . . I persecuted the church of God. {cf. 1 Cor 11:22, Gal 1:13}

+MATTHEW 16:18 . . . thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; . . .

+ROMANS 16:16 . . . The churches of Christ salute you.

*TITUS 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, . . . {cf. Rom 12:11, Lk 4:8- “. . . him only shalt thou serve”}

+ROMANS 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, . . . {cf. Eph 6:6, Col 3:24; servants of both: Jas 1:1, Rev 7:3, 11:18, 19:5}

*ISAIAH 43:3 For I {am} the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: . . .

2) *ISAIAH 43:11 I, {even} I, {am} the Lord; and beside me {there is} no saviour.

3) *ISAIAH 49:26 . . . I the Lord {am} thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

4) *HOSEA 13:4 Yet I {am} the Lord thy God . . . {there is} no saviour beside me. {cf. Ps 106:21, Is 45:21-22, 60:16, 63:8}

5) *LUKE 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

6) *1 TIMOTHY 4:10 . . . the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. {cf. 1 Tim 1:1, 2:3, 2 Tim 1:9, Titus 1:3, 2:10, 3:4, Jude 1:25}

1) #ISAIAH 49:5-6 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb {to be} his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, . . . (6) And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

+LUKE 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
4) +ACTS 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand {to be} a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

5) +TITUS 2:13 . . . great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

6) +2 PETER 1:1 . . . God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

7) +1 JOHN 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son {to be} the Saviour of the world.

*ISAIAH 45:23 . . . unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. {cf. 66:23}
2) +PHILIPPIANS 2:9-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That a
t the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of {things} in heaven, and {things} in earth, and {things} under the earth; (11) And {that} every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ {is} Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

*ISAIAH 35:4 . . . behold, your God will come {with} vengeance, {even} God {with} a recompence; he will come and save you.

2) *ISAIAH 40:5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see {it} together: . . .

3) *ISAIAH 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong {hand}, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward {is} with him, and his work before him.
7) *JOEL 2:10-11 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: (11) And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp {is} very great: for {he is} strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord {is} great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
5) +2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-8 . . . the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

6) +REVELATION 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they {also} which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. {cf. Zech 12:10}
8) +REVELATION 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward {is} with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

*PSALM 50:6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is {judge} himself. Selah.

*PSALM 96:13 Before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

3) *ECCLESIASTES 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether {it be} good or whether {it be} evil.
1) +JOHN 5:22,27 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son . . . (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

2) +JOHN 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

3) +ACTS 10:42 . . . it is he which was ordained of God {to be} the Judge of quick and dead.

4) +2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge {thee} therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
5) +REVELATION 6:16-17 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
) +REVELATION 19:11,15 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him {was} called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war . . . (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

*PSALM 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he {is} the King of glory. Selah
8) +REVELATION 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .

Compare
Psa 102:24 I said, O my God, do not take me up in the half of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations.
Psa 102:25 Before time You founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Psa 102:26 They shall perish, but You shall endure; yea, all of them shall wear out like a garment; You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed.
Psa 102:27 But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended.

With
Heb 1:8 but as to the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom;
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beside Your fellows.” Psa. 45:6, 7
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, at the beginning founded the earth, and the heavens are works of Your hands.
Heb 1:11 They will vanish away, but You will continue; and they will all become old, like a garment,
Heb 1:12 and You shall fold them up like a covering, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail.

Compare
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

With
Joh 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Joh 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Compare
Psa 7:8 The LORD (Jehovah) shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
Psa 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

1Ki 8:39 Then hear thou (Jehovah) in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)

With
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I (Jesus) am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD (Jehovah) with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Compare
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (Jehovah) shall be delivered:
With
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

July 12, 2007 at 9:56 pm#59388

Participant

Hi CB,
LOts of loud words.
Do they say God has a Son?
Life is in the Son so you need to know and believe in him too.

July 12, 2007 at 10:34 pm#59391

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2007,06:09)

Keronn

Isa 9:

Who else but Yahshua would have a goernment whose increase will not end and who will sit upon the throne of David?

Who else will extablish it with judgment and with justice from hence forth even “Forever”?

The answer is the last part of the verse!

**The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this**

Kejonn, it seems to me you will go to many extremes to disprove the trinity. When there is no disproving it.

The Trinitarian view has been going on for thousands of years and it will continue because there is no disproving it.

However overwhelming evidence in scriptures shows that Yeshua is God in the flesh!

Yes, the Trinitarian view has been around for many, many years. Had I been around when it was being espoused I would be dead now, burned at the stake. Men can make others swallow anything when they threaten them with death. So after years of pounding the doctrine home, through fear, it became another part of Christianity.

But those days are over. Many people of the earth can now refute these doctrines without fear of death. People can come out of hiding and seek the truth.

Your “who else” response above proves very little other than make you feel “it has to be Yeshua!”. I still see no proof of a “Mighty God” other than this verse and verses that speak about God Himself.

I don't ask for speculation to “prove” something extra-biblical. Speculation proves little.

July 12, 2007 at 10:38 pm#59392

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 13 2007,09:53)

Kejonn
Another version with capitalization. So don't accuse me of adding them.

Kejonn. You cannot throw away Isaiah 9:6 because it does does agree with your arian doctrine.

So tell us kejonn. Who is this Child that was born? Who is this Son that was given, the One called “The mighty God”?

There is a multitude of other verses that declare Jesus's divinity. I know this upsets the Watchtower folk and that's their problem, but here are a few more.

Was “son” capitalized in Hebrew? If not, non-starter. Man can capitalize anything if they think it will be powerful.

Who else will be named “mighty God”? I don't know. I haven't seen it yet, so no one truly knows.

The rest of the post is but another listing of half the Bible. The exercise is futile because your ignore my responses for the most part.

Woship who you want…me, I'll worship the Father.

July 13, 2007 at 7:11 am#59462

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2007,10:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2007,06:09)

Keronn

Isa 9:

Who else but Yahshua would have a goernment whose increase will not end and who will sit upon the throne of David?

Who else will extablish it with judgment and with justice from hence forth even “Forever”?

The answer is the last part of the verse!

**The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this**

Kejonn, it seems to me you will go to many extremes to disprove the trinity. When there is no disproving it.

The Trinitarian view has been going on for thousands of years and it will continue because there is no disproving it.

However overwhelming evidence in scriptures shows that Yeshua is God in the flesh!

But those days are over. Many people of the earth can now refute these doctrines without fear of death. People can come out of hiding and seek the truth.

I don't ask for speculation to “prove” something extra-biblical. Speculation proves little.

You didnt address the substance of the post!

Why not? Just another dance I see!

What do you think that 1000s of Trinitarians did not die for there faith at the hands of Arians?

Do you not think Trinitarians are dying even today in the world for their faith?

Have you noticed that we have “Henotheist, Arians, Unitarians” here but they all gang on the Trinitarians?

Can you not see your own revileing and persecuting and condemning Spirit?

You mistake sarcasm for truth and patronizing for teaching!

You do not have all truth my friend!

July 13, 2007 at 7:32 pm#59520

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2007,19:11)

Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2007,10:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2007,06:09)

Keronn

Isa 9:

Who else but Yahshua would have a goernment whose increase will not end and who will sit upon the throne of David?

Who else will extablish it with judgment and with justice from hence forth even “Forever”?

The answer is the last part of the verse!

**The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this**

Kejonn, it seems to me you will go to many extremes to disprove the trinity. When there is no disproving it.

The Trinitarian view has been going on for thousands of years and it will continue because there is no disproving it.

However overwhelming evidence in scriptures shows that Yeshua is God in the flesh!

But those days are over. Many people of the earth can now refute these doctrines without fear of death. People can come out of hiding and seek the truth.

I don't ask for speculation to “prove” something extra-biblical. Speculation proves little.

You didnt address the substance of the post!

Why not? Just another dance I see!

What do you think that 1000s of Trinitarians did not die for there faith at the hands of Arians?

Do you not think Trinitarians are dying even today in the world for their faith?

Have you noticed that we have “Henotheist, Arians, Unitarians” here but they all gang on the Trinitarians?

Can you not see your own revileing and persecuting and condemning Spirit?

You mistake sarcasm for truth and patronizing for teaching!

You do not have all truth my friend!

WJ,

–sigh– Physician, heal thyself. I've seen posts where you question people's mental capacity. Should we take such jabs as mere playful things? You would like to say I'm sarcastic but I've yet to call people insane just because I don't believe as they do. Oh yes, the quote was (paraphrased) “I think you have brain damage!”. Please go back and show me where I said anything similar to others. If you cannot, I will assume you are offended by my lack of agreement with your doctrine.

Were Trinitarians killed by Arians? I do not know, do you have a source for such accusations? I know Wikipedia has names of those who were killed or exiled because of their anti-trinitarian views. The Unitarian Michael Servetus was burned at the stake for being a heretic. Monarchianism, a form of anti-trinitarianism was considered heresy during the Inquisition and we know what that historical time period produced. So unless you can back up what you say, I will discount it for now.

And as far as “dancing” and not answering your question, no “dancing”. But I did answer your question. I said that speculation proves nothing. You asked “Who else but Yahshua would have a government whose increase will not end and who will sit upon the throne of David?”

My answer, who knows? Speculation does not provide proof.

You asked “Who else will extablish it with judgment and with justice from hence forth even “Forever”?”

We CAN work more with “justice”. Matthew 12:18-21. So it is likely then that Isaiah 9:6 can indeed be prophecy of Yeshua. If you had shown me the Matthew verses you would not make me think you were merely speculating :;): .

However, we still have the small issue of the phrase “his name will be called”. As I've pointed out to CB, Jehu means “He is God” so when you are talking about names in Hebrew, they have significance. If the verse had said “he will be” instead of “his name will be called” then it would be more concrete evidence of Godship on Yeshua's part. Here are some other names and their meanings:

Eliah – God The Lord

Eliakim – Resurrection Of God

Eliashib – The God Of Conversion

Eliel – God

Elijah – God the Lord

Eliphalet – The God Of Deliverance

Elisha – Salvation Of God

Elishah – It Is God; The Lamb Of God: God That Gives Help

Ezekiel – The Strength Of God

Geuel – God's Redemption

Ismael – God that Hears

Jemuel – God's Day; Son Of God

Kadmiel – God Of Antiquity; God Of Rising

Lemuel – God With Them

Pethuel – Mouth Of God; Persuasion Of God

Zidkijah – Justice Of The Lord

Zerahiah – The Lord Rising; Brightness Of The Lord

Shephatiah – The Lord That Judges

Shebaniah – The Lord That Converts

Seraiah – Prince Of The Lord

Sabaoth – Lord Of Hosts

Pedaiah – Redemption Of The Lord

Nedabiah – Prince Or Vow Of The Lord

Melatiah – Deliverance Of The Lord

Kolariah – Voice Of The Lord

John – The Grace Or Mercy Of The Lord

Jehozadak – Justice Of The Lord

Jedeiah – One Lord; The Joy Of The Lord

Ishiah – It Is The Lord

Isaiah – The Salvation Of The Lord

Iphedeiah – Redemption Of The Lord

Igdaliah – The Greatness Of The Lord

Hoshaiah – The Salvation Of The Lord

Binea – Son Of The Lord

Benaiah – Son Of The Lord

Ahiah – Brother Of The Lord

Abishalom – Father Of Peace

Abishua – Father Of Salvation

Mellicu – His Kingdom; His Counselor

Jah – The Everlasting

So you see, what is in a name?

Finally, your statement “There is no disproving Trinity”, you are partially right. You cannot disprove something to someone who can only see what they want to see. I can tell you fairies are real even if you think you have proof that they are not. I provided you with 1 Cor. 8:6 and you danced your own jig around that verse. I must say, you were a clumsy dancer with that one, and rather unconvincing. “For us there is but one God, the Father” Ind
eed. I'm on Paul's side in this one. Some versions make ever bolder translations

AMP – Yet for us there is [only] one God, the Father, Who is the Source of all things and for Whom we [have life], and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through and by Whom are all things and through and by Whom we [ourselves exist].
NLT – But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.
CEV – We have only one God, and he is the Father. He created everything, and we live for him. Jesus Christ is our only Lord. Everything was made by him, and by him life was given to us
NCV – for us there is only one God—our Father. All things came from him, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord—Jesus Christ. All things were made through him, and we also were made through him.
NLV – But we know there is only one God. He is the Father. All things are from Him. He made us for Himself. There is one Lord. He is Jesus Christ. He made all things. He keeps us alive.
WENT – Yet for us there is only one God. He is the Father. All things come from him. He is the one for whom we live. And there is only one Lord. He is Jesus Christ. He made all things. He is the one who gives us life.

Yikes.

July 13, 2007 at 8:06 pm#59529

Not3in1

Participant

Kejonn,

I'm very glad you are here.

July 13, 2007 at 8:23 pm#59536

Participant

amen

July 14, 2007 at 12:15 am#59586

Participant

kejonn

You say…

Quote

First of all my comment to NH was in jest. I have known NH for sometime and have had a lot of dialogue with him. If he was offended surely I will say “I apologize”. NH is strong and not moved by such jest.

But this has nothing to do with the condescending, sarcasm, and patronizing that you come across with in your post.

Its not a matter of disagreeing with me or anyone else, its the way you come across, in my opinion its demeaning.

For instance in a response to Is 1:18 you said…

Quote

Sorry to butt in, but Yeshua never said he wasn't Buddhist either. He never said he wasn't Hitler. He never said he leaped tall buildings in a single bound. He never said he jumped through hoops of fire and danced the tango. So automatically, one can assume he did such things.

I hate to make this comparison, but you debate much like someone I know on another board. This person is an atheist BTW.

Why not work with what we do have and not what you want to assume because it fits you theology. “Hmmmm sounds about right to me. Let it be so”.

I am sure that Is 1:18 dosnt care about you insinuating hes like an “atheist” as I dont care if you call me names.

But instead of discussing the facts you had to go after his character. I could pull up other examples in your dialogue with CB and myself, but whats the use.

If we claim to be Christians then we should rather strive to understand each other rather than attack the person, or try to make the person feel like an idiot! Scriptures speak louder than sarcasm and critisism.

You say…

Quote

Of course. What do you think the wars were about in the third and fourth century?

This also is found in wikopedia…

Arianism in the early medieval Germanic kingdoms
However, during the time of Arianism's flowering in Constantinople, the Gothic convert Ulfilas (later the subject of the letter of Auxentius cited above) was sent as a missionary to the Gothic barbarians across the Danube, a mission favored for political reasons by emperor Constantius II. Ulfilas' initial success in converting this Germanic people to an Arian form of Christianity was strengthened by later events. When the Germanic peoples entered the Roman Empire and founded successor-kingdoms in the western part, most had been Arian Christians for more than a century.

The conflict in the 4th century had seen Arian and Nicene factions struggling for control of the Church. In contrast, in the Arian German kingdoms established on the wreckage of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century, there were entirely separate Arian and Nicene Churches with parallel hierarchies, each serving different sets of believers. The Germanic elites were Arians, and the majority population Nicene. Many scholars see the persistence of the Germans' Arian religion as a strategy to differentiate the Germanic elite from the local inhabitants and culture and to maintain their group identity.

Most Germanic tribes were generally tolerant of the Nicene beliefs of their subjects. However, the Vandals tried for several decades to force their Arian belief on their North African Nicene subjects, exiling Nicene clergy, dissolving monasteries, and exercising heavy pressure on non-conforming Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arians

I think you will agree that Jesus had nothing to do with either side killing one another, and forcing their beliefs on each other.

But to insinuate that the wars was a result of the Trinitarian doctrine is a fallacy!

The conflict seemed to have started because of the heresys of Arianism.

The controversy over Arianism began to rise in the late third century and extended over the greater part of the fourth century and involved most church members, simple believers, priests and monks as well as bishops, emperors and members of Rome's imperial family. Yet, such a deep controversy within the Church could not have materialized in the third and fourth centuries without some significant historical influences providing the basis for the Arian doctrines. Most orthodox or mainstream Christian historians define and minimize the Arian conflict as the exclusive construct of Arius and a handful of rogue bishops engaging in “heresy”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arians

Yoiu say…

Quote

My answer, who knows? Speculation does not provide proof.

You asked “Who else will extablish it with judgment and with justice from hence forth even “Forever”?”

There is no speculating Isa 9:6,7. You are the first person I have heard of in my 33 years that didnt believe these scriptures are prophetic of Yeshua! So to me it was a dance!

Its obvious Jesus is the one who will sit in the throne of David and have an evelasting Kindgdom and the increase of his government will have no end!

Yet you still found a way to dance around it by bringing up names! So you proceed to give a list of names that are completly irellevant to the text. If you dont like me saying “dance”, I dont see why since you use it here on this sight!

Yeshau has many names, so does the Father. If the scriptures call him the mighty God, then he is the mighty God.

What about scripture when it says his name shall be called “Immanuel” which is “God with us”, yet the Holy Ghost gave Joseph and Mary the name of Jesus? Seems to support Isa 9:6,7. Yeshau, Jesus, also means “YHWH is salvation”.

Of course if I were a Unitarian I would not like the scriptures calling Jesus “Mighty God” either.

You say…

Quote

If the verse had said “he will be” instead of “his name will be called” then it would be more concrete evidence of Godship on Yeshua's part. Here are some other names and their meanings:

If it said “he will be” Mighty God” then that would be saying God had a beginning!

So I guess if it would have said “he will be” Prince of Peace then that would have been more concrete evidence of his being a prince? Any prince could “be a” prince of peace, but not any prince could have “the name” Prince of Peace!

You say…

Quote

Finally, your statement “There is no disproving Trinity”, you are partially right.

No I am completly right. For there is no scripture that Unambiguosly says Jesus is not God, neither do I believe there is any that even implys it!

You say…

Quote

You cannot disprove something to someone who can only see what they want to see. I can tell you fairies are real even if you think you have proof that they are not.

This is true!

You say…

Quote

I provided you with 1 Cor. 8:6 and you danced your own jig around that verse. I must say, you were a clumsy dancer with that one, and rather unconvincing. “For us there is but one God, the Father” Indeed. I'm on Paul's side in this one. Some versions make ever bolder translations

There is that word dance again.

No dance. You just didnt like my answer. You think that 1 Cor 8:6 like others on this site is the model text for proving Jesus is not God.

As I have shown Paul a Hebrew of the Hebrews knew the Hebrew scriptures that says God “alone”, By himself, created the heavens, yet he says…

AMP – Yet for us there is [only] one God, the Father, Who is the Source of all things and for Whom we [have life], and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through and by Whom are all things and *through and by Whom we [ourselves exist]*.

NLT – But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.

CEV – We have only one God, and he is the Father. He created everything, and we live for him. Jesus Christ is our only Lord. Everything was made by him, and by him life was given to us

NCV – for us there is only one God—our Father. All things came from him, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord—Jesus Christ. All things were made through him, and we also were made through him.

NLV – But we know there is only one God. He is the Father. All things are from Him. He made us for Himself. There is one Lord. He is Jesus Christ. He made all things. He keeps us alive.

WENT – Yet for us there is only one God. He is the Father. All things come from him. He is the one for whom we live. And there is only one Lord. He is Jesus Christ. He made all things. He is the one who gives us life.

The iimplications of Paul being a strict Monotheist and putting Jesus along side of the Father as creater was huge!

How many creators is there Kejonn?

In the begining God!

Not to mention to say that one God being ascribed to the Father who has no NT name, is not meaning Jesus is not God, or One Lord means that the Father is not Lord!

Besides we have scriptures calling Jesus God!

Heres some examples where the words “Only” and “True” is applied to the Father and the Son!

The Father is not only called the Only true God (John 17:3), but the “Only Saviour” (Isa 43:11; 45:21; Hos 13:4; Jude 25) , “Only King” (Zech 14:9).
If John 17:3 excludes Jesus from being “True God”, then Jesus is also excluded from being a Saviour or King.

Conversely, Jesus is called the “Only Teacher, (Matt 23:8,10, Mt 10:24 and Jn 13:13), “Only Master” (Jude 4, 2 Peter 2:1), and “Only Lord” (Jude 4, Eph 4:4, 1 Cor 8:4,6, Mt 6:24).

If John 17:3 excludes Jesus from being “True God”, then the Father is also excluded from being our Teacher, Master or Lord.

The same argument applies to one God and one Lord in 1 Cor 8:6.

So the argument that 1 Cor 8:6 is proof that Jesus is not God is a straw!

So kejonn, I can not convince you that Jesus is God and you cant convince me he is not!

But we can pray that God will open our understanding to show us “his Truth”.

July 14, 2007 at 12:57 am#59594