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Quote (chosenone @ June 04 2007,04:59) Quote (942767 @ June 04 2007,03:47) Hi CO: You say: Quote It was there in the case of Jacob and Esau, whose future actions were decided before they were born, in order that God’s purpose might “remain as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling” (Rom.9:11). God has forseen the future actions of all mankind, but to say that Jacob's and Esau's future actions were decided is a misunderstanding of scripture. Did not Esau choose to sell his birth-right to Jacob?
God Bless
Hi 942767.
Thanks for your reply, rather than trying to explain my view, I hope you don't mind if I just pass on this article, which will explain my belief better than I can:FREE CHOICE?
So coming back to the question of free choice, and to sum up what we have been saying, we are suggesting that what appears on the surface to be a genuine freedom of decision is in reality not so, but is in fact governed by hidden forces within our very natures—forces that were put there by God Himself when He made humanity what it is—when He created us soulish. A man’s heart may devise his ways, but, when all is said and done, it is the Lord Who directs his steps (Prov.16:9). This direction may be unperceived at the time, but is there nevertheless.
It was there in the case of Jacob and Esau, whose future actions were decided before they were born, in order that God’s purpose might “remain as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling” (Rom.9:11).
It was there in the case of Pharaoh, who, unknown to himself, was roused up for the specific purpose that God might display His power in him (Rom.9:17).
It was there in the case of humanity in general—vessels of indignation, made by God for dishonor, and adapted by Him for destruction. it is the Divine Potter Who makes them thus (Rom.9: 21,22).
It is there in the case of the ecclesia, vessels of mercy, made ready before for glory, in whom God is operating “both to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight” (Rom.9:23; Phil.2: 13).
It is there in the case of creation itself, subjected to vanity, “not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it” (Rom.8:20). Creation cannot help itself, that all its achievements are futile because of the slavery of corruption, but we take immense comfort from the fact that, in spite of all its present “groaning and travailing,” it was subjected to vanity in expectation of the eventual realization of that glorious freedom which is now already being enjoyed by the children of God.
It is in the prison epistle of Paul to the Ephesians that we find the most absolute expression of the deity of God in relation to the points we have been considering. Here we find the phrase which puts all other scriptures into their perspective. “According to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will” (1:11).
God is the captain of the ship of the universe; all His creatures are its passengers. He is guiding the vessel across the ocean of time from the port that is called “All in God” to the haven that is termed “God in all.”
The passengers have wills of their own, but only as much freedom of choice as their Captain permits, which, in the absolute sense, is no freedom at all, since at all times he remains in full command. He may allow them to wander seemingly unhindered about the ship, but even so there are parts of the vessel where they are not allowed to go, and many things which they are not allowed to do. And all the time they are being carried along inevitably wherever the ship takes them—that is, wherever the Captain directs. When the ship goes wherever they want to go, they feel free, but the moment that it starts to move toward a place where they do not want to go, they know immediately that they are not free at all. But, since they are on the ship, they are under the absolute control of the Captain.
And so it is with creation. It had no choice even as to which ship it should join, or whereabouts on the ship it would find itself, nor has it any say in the direction the ship is taking. For much of its journey it is allowed to think that it is working out its own destiny, but sooner or later it is brought inexorably to the conclusion that God is in control and “is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.” Thus it eventually grows into a “realization of God.” Blessed indeed are those who grow into this realization sooner rather than later.
“All is of God,” says Paul in Corinthians. “The One Who is operating all,” he says in Ephesians. If God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will, can there be another free will in the universe? Can there be two Gods?
“Thou shalt have no other gods before Me,” wrote Moses at God’s dictation. “To us,” says Paul, “there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is.”
When we have fully grasped the import of these great truths, we shall no longer say “I,” or “I and God,” or even “God and I,” but simply and solely, and majestically, “God.”
His deity will then be fully recognized and acknowledged.
Hi Co:Where did you find this article? Who wrote it?
Hi 942767.
Thanks for your inquiry. I got this article from “The Concordant Publishing Concern”. They have existed since 1909, and their purpose was to find and literaly translate the ancient scroles (scriptures). They have developed a method of translation that tries to remove the bias of the translator. I won't go into further detail, but I have found them to be the best source of information regarding Gods word. You can find them on thier websight: http://www.concordant.org They have a lot of biblical comments, go to 'expositions' to see them.
If you do look at this, please let me know what you think, I would value your opinion.Blessings.
Hi,
The will of God is done.
It is better is we are aligned with that will.
Mt 7
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Find the WILL OF GOD in the teachings of God.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
I think this verse stands out above all others. It still applies today. If we hear (literally) what the Lord is saying to us and obey Him, then we will be conforming to the will of God.
Knowing Scripture is, of course, important, but far more important to live the relationship.
Hi Oxy,
Is it possible to assume the voice is that of the Lord without scriptural support?
Thin ice.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,20:34) Hi Oxy,
Is it possible to assume the voice is that of the Lord without scriptural support?
Thin ice.
My sheep shall know My voice.Sound familiar?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,21:02) Hi Oxy,
The voice of the shepherd is already written first.
As I said on the other page, He once told me to buy a truck. That isn't in ScriptureYou see Nick, what the Lord really wants is a relationship with us. He wants us to hear and know His voice, as He hears and knows ours. He wants us to walk with Him in obedience, not just to Scripture, but also to His commands.
If you are too focused on Scripture rather than the relationship, then there is a real danger of your Bible becoming your God instead of the author.
Hi Oxy,
Your claims to personal spiritual direction would more convincing and less unwise
if you echoed more the call of our God to heed, abide in and and respect the scriptures.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,21:28) Hi Oxy,
Your claims to personal spiritual direction would more convincing and less unwise
if you echoed more the call of our God to heed, abide in and and respect the scriptures.
So now I disrespect the Scriptures? No wonder I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall! Hence the avatar, do you like it? lol.Tell me Nick, which is better, to have an active wholesome relationship with God, or to have a thorough knowledge of Scripture?
For my part, I put a daily reading on my website every day. God has often led me to Scripture and taught me from it. I study Scripture as I come across things in life that make me wonder about things. I certainly have no disrespect for Scripture.
But now, let me pose another question. In all the posts of yours that I have read, I do not ever recall you saying “God showed me..” or “God told me..”
Do you know the Lord's voice Nick? Because if you don't then you are not one of His sheep.
Further more, the teachings on my website are not my own, but are the teachings God has given me as He has led me to study Scripture under His guidance. The poems on my website are inspired by the Holy Spirit, and if you read about my experiences you will see how God has led me in real life experiences.
Oxy I did not catch were your website is, would you please tell me, I would like to visit it.
Peace and Lovre Mrs.
Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 19 2007,06:09) Further more, the teachings on my website are not my own, but are the teachings God has given me as He has led me to study Scripture under His guidance. The poems on my website are inspired by the Holy Spirit, and if you read about my experiences you will see how God has led me in real life experiences.
Hi Oxy,
I hope you are led to treasure and abide in the Scriptures.
Such is the appointed path of the children of God.
Personal experience as a guide is unreliable.Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 19 2007,08:16) Oxy I did not catch were your website is, would you please tell me, I would like to visit it. Peace and Lovre Mrs.
Hi IM4TruthThanks
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,08:51) Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 19 2007,06:09) Further more, the teachings on my website are not my own, but are the teachings God has given me as He has led me to study Scripture under His guidance. The poems on my website are inspired by the Holy Spirit, and if you read about my experiences you will see how God has led me in real life experiences.
Hi Oxy,
I hope you are led to treasure and abide in the Scriptures.
Such is the appointed path of the children of God.
Personal experience as a guide is unreliable.
Nick, I abide in the Lord. He is my hope, my salvation, my comfort, my close friend.The Scriptures help me to understand Him, especially when He teaches me from them.
Hi Oxy,
The Lord you say you abide in told his brothers to abide in his teachings.
You cannot have one without the other.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,10:31) Hi Oxy,
The Lord you say you abide in told his brothers to abide in his teachings.
You cannot have one without the other.
True, you're catching on.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,10:31) Hi Oxy,
The Lord you say you abide in told his brothers to abide in his teachings.
You cannot have one without the other.
But as pointed out in Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,I think it best to abide in Him
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