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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,13:28) Hi 94,
You say
“I believe that you are born of living water when you believe the Word of God, and you are born of the Spirit when you receive the Holy Ghost.”
Scripture rather says that the living water is the Holy Spirit baptism.
Jn 7
” 37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) “
So what you says is repetitive, adds “living” to water in Jn3, and denies the simpler meaning of water as baptism.
Hi Nick:If you notice verse 39 is in Parantheses which indicates to me that this was added.
The Holy Ghost dwells in us when we are walking in the Spirit of Christ. It is by the Word of God that we live and that is what come out of our heart, and so, when Jesus says out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water, this indicates to me that reference is made here to his Word.
Also, the verse previous to this states:
7:37
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.This is consistent with:
Matt.5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.And,
Matt.4:3
And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.And,
John 4:9
Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
4:11
The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
4:12
* Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof * * himself, and his children, and his cattle?
4:13
Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
4:14
But whosoever * * drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never * * * thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.And,
Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,While it is true that John 3:5 doesn't say “living water” but just water the above is why I say living water. But it doesn't say water baptism either, and so if you add baptism you are also adding to what Jesus said.
Maybe, I should just say water rather than “living water”.
Hi 94,
You say
“If you notice verse 39 is in Parantheses which indicates to me that this was added”
I do not believe you are correct.
Here is ylt
38he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'39and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
nasb
38″He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'”39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
esv
37On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as[f] the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'” 39Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
We should not deny the words of scripture which says it refers to the Spirit.Jn 4 refers also to the Spirit while the washing by the Word, al;so shown in Jn 15, is another issue.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,15:22) Hi 94,
You say
“If you notice verse 39 is in Parantheses which indicates to me that this was added”
I do not believe you are correct.
Here is ylt
38he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'39and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
nasb
38″He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'”39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
esv
37On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as[f] the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'” 39Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
We should not deny the words of scripture which says it refers to the Spirit.Jn 4 refers also to the Spirit while the washing by the Word, al;so shown in Jn 15, is another issue.
Hi Nick:Why is verse 39 in parantheses in the KJV? And, it is your interpretation verses mine relative to John 4.
I have given you scripture for my understanding of what is being stated.
If you want to think that it means water baptism, give me scripture for why you think this why it should be this way.
There are other reasons that I have discussed in prior threads as to why the water in John 3 does not mean water baptism.
We are saved by the Grace of God through faith, not our faith, but the faith of Christ Jesus (Ro. 3:22). In this present eon, we have no need of water baptizm, we are baptized with the Holy Spirit (Act. 1:5).
Blessings.
Hi CO,
So we do not need to believe even?
Baptism is an act of faith so not surprisingly you find it unnecessary too.Hi Nick.
In the four gospels, Jesus is teaching while still under the law, also under the “Old Covenant”. The “Nations”, gentiles, where still estranged, far from God, not included except for crumbs off the table. Jesus fulfilled the law, was able to do what is required for salvation. The Jews were unable to do this, this was done to show that one cannot 'earn' their way to salvation. We are now under 'Grace', not the law. But we are blinded by the teachings of the so-called churches, telling us that we do still have to do 'something' to earn our salvation. Now, most still try to somehow 'earn', 'qualify', themselves by doing something (repent, allow God to lead them, invite Gods Holy Spirit, etc.). As if God is standing by to be invited in your salvation, and can do nothing Himself to perform your salvation. What pride we have, trampleing Christs death and ressurection underfoot, trivializing this as only a potential to be saved, still trying to 'obey' some fictional law that WE must do to qualify ourselves, “earn” our salvation. What “pride”we have in ourselves, how great we want to appear in Gods eyes, to show Him that 'we' are so much smarter than those terrible 'sinners', who are ignorant, and can't figure out how to be 'saved'. Really, Christ has died in vain, we could do it all by ourselves, just ask us!Blessings.
Hi co,
So you do not know if you have got the short staw..hang on..nobody is lost..party time Hitler!Hi CO,
You must know faith.
We have a way to God and faith opens the way for grace to come.Jas1
5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Every man is given a measure of faith which too is grace and that faith must be used to seek. We have nothing useful and God is not niggardly but generous with grace to those who seek.
Hebrews 6:7
For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;Hi Nick.
James and Hebrews were written to the Jews. This should be evident to you when the first chapter in James says. “To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings”. You have to understand what you read before commenting.Blessings.
Hi CO,
So was James aligning himself with the synagogue of Satan, that unsaved group whose allegiance was only to the 12 jewish tribes and not to Christ, or was this the new sons of Abraham by faith he was addressing, those sons that are now neither jew nor gentile?Why do you now note to whom the letters are addressed when you ignore the addressing of Pauls letters to the saints offering them also to those who are not among the elect?
Hi Nick.
I'm not sure what you mean by this last posting. James and the synagogue of satan? and so on… And again, Pauls letters all start with his addressing to whom it is written, but does NOT say they are only for them, as Jesus said when He said that He “was not commissioned except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” All of Pauls epistles are for the “Nations” ((Ro.15:16).Blessings.
Hi CO,
The same gospel is for all the nations.
“Repent and be baptised each one of you for the forgiveness of sin and you will receive the Spirit..”
Be grafted in while the door is open.Hi Nick.
“Repent and be baptised for the forgiveness of sin?” What then did Jesus die for, if not our sins? We have been “justified”, He (God) sees our sin no more?Blessings.
FREE CHOICE?
So coming back to the question of free choice, and to sum up what we have been saying, we are suggesting that what appears on the surface to be a genuine freedom of decision is in reality not so, but is in fact governed by hidden forces within our very natures—forces that were put there by God Himself when He made humanity what it is—when He created us soulish. A man’s heart may devise his ways, but, when all is said and done, it is the Lord Who directs his steps (Prov.16:9). This direction may be unperceived at the time, but is there nevertheless.
It was there in the case of Jacob and Esau, whose future actions were decided before they were born, in order that God’s purpose might “remain as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling” (Rom.9:11).
It was there in the case of Pharaoh, who, unknown to himself, was roused up for the specific purpose that God might display His power in him (Rom.9:17).
It was there in the case of humanity in general—vessels of indignation, made by God for dishonor, and adapted by Him for destruction. it is the Divine Potter Who makes them thus (Rom.9: 21,22).
It is there in the case of the ecclesia, vessels of mercy, made ready before for glory, in whom God is operating “both to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight” (Rom.9:23; Phil.2: 13).
It is there in the case of creation itself, subjected to vanity, “not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it” (Rom.8:20). Creation cannot help itself, that all its achievements are futile because of the slavery of corruption, but we take immense comfort from the fact that, in spite of all its present “groaning and travailing,” it was subjected to vanity in expectation of the eventual realization of that glorious freedom which is now already being enjoyed by the children of God.
It is in the prison epistle of Paul to the Ephesians that we find the most absolute expression of the deity of God in relation to the points we have been considering. Here we find the phrase which puts all other scriptures into their perspective. “According to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will” (1:11).
God is the captain of the ship of the universe; all His creatures are its passengers. He is guiding the vessel across the ocean of time from the port that is called “All in God” to the haven that is termed “God in all.”
The passengers have wills of their own, but only as much freedom of choice as their Captain permits, which, in the absolute sense, is no freedom at all, since at all times he remains in full command. He may allow them to wander seemingly unhindered about the ship, but even so there are parts of the vessel where they are not allowed to go, and many things which they are not allowed to do. And all the time they are being carried along inevitably wherever the ship takes them—that is, wherever the Captain directs. When the ship goes wherever they want to go, they feel free, but the moment that it starts to move toward a place where they do not want to go, they know immediately that they are not free at all. But, since they are on the ship, they are under the absolute control of the Captain.
And so it is with creation. It had no choice even as to which ship it should join, or whereabouts on the ship it would find itself, nor has it any say in the direction the ship is taking. For much of its journey it is allowed to think that it is working out its own destiny, but sooner or later it is brought inexorably to the conclusion that God is in control and “is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.” Thus it eventually grows into a “realization of God.” Blessed indeed are those who grow into this realization sooner rather than later.
“All is of God,” says Paul in Corinthians. “The One Who is operating all,” he says in Ephesians. If God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will, can there be another free will in the universe? Can there be two Gods?
“Thou shalt have no other gods before Me,” wrote Moses at God’s dictation. “To us,” says Paul, “there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is.”
When we have fully grasped the import of these great truths, we shall no longer say “I,” or “I and God,” or even “God and I,” but simply and solely, and majestically, “God.”
His deity will then be fully recognized and acknowledged.
Blessings
Quote (chosenone @ June 02 2007,04:45) Hi Nick.
“Repent and be baptised for the forgiveness of sin?” What then did Jesus die for, if not our sins? We have been “justified”, He (God) sees our sin no more?Blessings.
Hi CO,
Hilter and Stalin will be thrilled to hear it.Hi CO: You say:
Quote It was there in the case of Jacob and Esau, whose future actions were decided before they were born, in order that God’s purpose might “remain as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling” (Rom.9:11). God has forseen the future actions of all mankind, but to say that Jacob's and Esau's future actions were decided is a misunderstanding of scripture. Did not Esau choose to sell his birth-right to Jacob?
God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2007,18:34) Quote (chosenone @ June 02 2007,04:45) Hi Nick.
“Repent and be baptised for the forgiveness of sin?” What then did Jesus die for, if not our sins? We have been “justified”, He (God) sees our sin no more?Blessings.
Hi CO,
Hilter and Stalin will be thrilled to hear it.
Hi Nick.
Are we much better than Hitler and Stalin in the eyes of God? All are sinners and fall short of the glory of God.
“All is of God” and “God is operating ALL according to the council of his will.”Blessings.
Quote (942767 @ June 04 2007,03:47) Hi CO: You say: Quote It was there in the case of Jacob and Esau, whose future actions were decided before they were born, in order that God’s purpose might “remain as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling” (Rom.9:11). God has forseen the future actions of all mankind, but to say that Jacob's and Esau's future actions were decided is a misunderstanding of scripture. Did not Esau choose to sell his birth-right to Jacob?
God Bless
Hi 942767.
Thanks for your reply, rather than trying to explain my view, I hope you don't mind if I just pass on this article, which will explain my belief better than I can:FREE CHOICE?
So coming back to the question of free choice, and to sum up what we have been saying, we are suggesting that what appears on the surface to be a genuine freedom of decision is in reality not so, but is in fact governed by hidden forces within our very natures—forces that were put there by God Himself when He made humanity what it is—when He created us soulish. A man’s heart may devise his ways, but, when all is said and done, it is the Lord Who directs his steps (Prov.16:9). This direction may be unperceived at the time, but is there nevertheless.
It was there in the case of Jacob and Esau, whose future actions were decided before they were born, in order that God’s purpose might “remain as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling” (Rom.9:11).
It was there in the case of Pharaoh, who, unknown to himself, was roused up for the specific purpose that God might display His power in him (Rom.9:17).
It was there in the case of humanity in general—vessels of indignation, made by God for dishonor, and adapted by Him for destruction. it is the Divine Potter Who makes them thus (Rom.9: 21,22).
It is there in the case of the ecclesia, vessels of mercy, made ready before for glory, in whom God is operating “both to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight” (Rom.9:23; Phil.2: 13).
It is there in the case of creation itself, subjected to vanity, “not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it” (Rom.8:20). Creation cannot help itself, that all its achievements are futile because of the slavery of corruption, but we take immense comfort from the fact that, in spite of all its present “groaning and travailing,” it was subjected to vanity in expectation of the eventual realization of that glorious freedom which is now already being enjoyed by the children of God.
It is in the prison epistle of Paul to the Ephesians that we find the most absolute expression of the deity of God in relation to the points we have been considering. Here we find the phrase which puts all other scriptures into their perspective. “According to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will” (1:11).
God is the captain of the ship of the universe; all His creatures are its passengers. He is guiding the vessel across the ocean of time from the port that is called “All in God” to the haven that is termed “God in all.”
The passengers have wills of their own, but only as much freedom of choice as their Captain permits, which, in the absolute sense, is no freedom at all, since at all times he remains in full command. He may allow them to wander seemingly unhindered about the ship, but even so there are parts of the vessel where they are not allowed to go, and many things which they are not allowed to do. And all the time they are being carried along inevitably wherever the ship takes them—that is, wherever the Captain directs. When the ship goes wherever they want to go, they feel free, but the moment that it starts to move toward a place where they do not want to go, they know immediately that they are not free at all. But, since they are on the ship, they are under the absolute control of the Captain.
And so it is with creation. It had no choice even as to which ship it should join, or whereabouts on the ship it would find itself, nor has it any say in the direction the ship is taking. For much of its journey it is allowed to think that it is working out its own destiny, but sooner or later it is brought inexorably to the conclusion that God is in control and “is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.” Thus it eventually grows into a “realization of God.” Blessed indeed are those who grow into this realization sooner rather than later.
“All is of God,” says Paul in Corinthians. “The One Who is operating all,” he says in Ephesians. If God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will, can there be another free will in the universe? Can there be two Gods?
“Thou shalt have no other gods before Me,” wrote Moses at God’s dictation. “To us,” says Paul, “there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is.”
When we have fully grasped the import of these great truths, we shall no longer say “I,” or “I and God,” or even “God and I,” but simply and solely, and majestically, “God.”
His deity will then be fully recognized and acknowledged.
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