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Howdy there
SeekerQuote I don't believe it's which religon is the Whore but that religon is the whore. Are you saying that ALL religions are drunk on the blood of the Saints?
Leading people away from the core.
I am not saying that the catholic church is the whore alone, but the combination of other religions under her control. She is the only church trying to bring all the religions under one banner and that all the religions should unite. Don't belive me, its news. Check out the stuff about St. Petersburg church and what Pope john paul the second was doing. Strange stuff.
Yes you could be right.
Babylon if not the Catholic Church, is the Mother of False religion whereby the Catholic Church and others are part of.
Babylon's idols were destroyed. They also held to a Trinity. The foundational creeds of most denominations today is the Trinity in same shape or form. This is a departure from scripture and the gospel of Christ.
Babylon's influence and false religion is still here today and the whole world is drunk on it.
From Babylon, to Egypt, and now Roman Catholicism and her daughters, we see false gods often in the form of a Trinity. Even Hinduism and other religions worshipped Trinities.
But God will shatter the idols and he will judge Babylon so that she will fall in one day.
Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ Mar. 01 2006,14:22) How can the chosen people of God be the very ones who are the Whore? How can Jesus be the King of Isreal, if she is the whore. Matter of fact she is not,The Great Whore is a Religious Whore. Isreal is the woman in the heavens giving birth to the Child whom the Dragon tries to eat. Two different woman.
To OneoftheLordsGenerals,Christians or disciples of Christ are certainly not the whore, rather they are the Church, the bride of Christ. Christ is not going to marry a whore, most certainly not. I don't know who is saying that?
But the children of God can still be prisoners within Babylon, just as they were enslaved by Egypt, Babylon, and Rome.
After all it does say: “Come out of her my people”.
Revelation 18:2-4
2 With a mighty voice he shouted:
“Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
3 For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;The original Babylon was judged by God and fell, but her influence lived on and made the world drunk.
If we want to understand Babylon in the Book of Revelation, we need to look at ancient Babylon and see why and how God judged her.
Isaiah 21:9
Look, here comes a man in a chariot with a team of horses. And he gives back the answer: 'Babylon has fallen, has fallen! All the images of its gods lie shattered on the ground!' “Jeremiah 51:47
For the time will surely come when I will punish the idols of Babylon; her whole land will be disgraced and her slain will all lie fallen within her.Jeremiah 51:49
“Babylon must fall because of Israel's slain, just as the slain in all the earth have fallen because of Babylon.So the old fell, never to be rebuilt. Saddam had a go at rebuilding her, but the Gulf War stopped him from completing it. Now look at the influence of Babylon and her fall in the last days.
Revelation 14:8
A second angel followed and said, “Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”Revelation 18:8
Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.Quote (TJStarfire @ Mar. 04 2006,19:55) Howdy there
SeekerQuote I don't believe it's which religon is the Whore but that religon is the whore. Are you saying that ALL religions are drunk on the blood of the Saints?
Leading people away from the core.
I believe religon started with Cain and it is man doing what's right in their own eyes and trying to make their own way to god, this in turn spawns all sorts of religons.When I say “religon is the whore” it is because the scriptures seem to indicate that the “whore” (or woman) has spanned history and pre-dates christianity.
The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
My understanding of the above is that the woman has been supported by the world rulers throughout history. It would seem that at the time of the end there will be a tie-in and center somehow in an actual city.
I believe it will be the religous (the woman, not the true church) who will help the beast to power. They will think they are controlling it (riding the beast) but once in power satan will inspire the beast to destroy the woman (the heads of the religons, possibly centered in a city) not wanting to have the focus of the people on anything but him.
Some may argue that God destroyes the woman but it wouldn't be the first time that satan has inavertenly done Gods work (what satan meant for evil, God meant for good, even killing the Son of God).
The above includes some speculation and is meant only to offer my opinion.
One thing I forgot was to speculate on the city. As I see it after the flood, Babylon was where “the woman” started anew but scripture seems to indicate that it was not necessarily tied to the physical site (Peters reference to Rome being Babylon, I think?). This also brings up the possiblity that it may move around to other cities which are heading up this, “anything but the true God” push.
When reading the scriptures and looking at where things are in the world right now (and if Jesus is coming real soon) New York would be the best fit. I have never really thought this until a few minutes ago as I wrote the above and if so as an American who loves his country, this would sadden me greatly.
New York as the headquarters for the UN, and it is a sort of control center for many businesses and media which spews out it's filth, as well as wall street, and the USA is the worlds largest importer, it just seems to be a perfect match.
If God delays this could move again, but I don't think He will.
And then again I could be wrong on everthing, just speculating
Hope I answered your question
Thanks for your thoughts seekingtruth.
The following is but speculation too. I throw it in to perhaps ignite thought and debate on the subject.
In my experience, Rome is probably the most popular view regarding the Whore of Babylon. New York is also popular and some think she is the USA.
Ancient Babylon was a place of trade, wealth, and power. New York with the Stock Exchange and the UN for world policies certainly makes this city a candidate. However, It appears that God judged ancient Babylon not for her trade and power, but for her idolatory and this certainly makes Rome a viable candidate. In addition to that, Rome is known to this day as the city on seven hills, along with some other cities of the world. I am not sure if that title has ever been applied to New York.
The whore is said to have an influence in all nations and Rome (Catholicism & her daughters) have over 1 billion followers distributed in probably every country on earth. She has certainly made the world drunk on her doctrines at least, especially the Trinity and reverence for Mary and certain saints. She is especially strong in Europe and South America.
If I was going to say a place in the USA that has made the world drunk on her ideas or influenced the world in a bad way, it wouldn't be New York, but perhaps Hollywood. I find New York to fit the bill in some areas but not all. But the USA fits the description better, but it does say that she is a city. Whether that should be taken literally or not, I do not know.
Anyway it could turn out to be something completely different and maybe hundreds of years in the future.
I tend to think that Rome fits the description quite well, better than the other candidates. It says that kings of the earth have committed adultery with her. If we study the history of Rome and the Vatican, we can certainly see that she has wielded great power and even placed and displaced kings. We also know that politicians to this day, by appealing to Catholics and other denominations, can certainly gain more political support. After all 1 billion Catholics and hundreds of millions of people in other denominations is a lot of people.
Any ideas or comments are welcome.
thx
T8
Prior to when I wrote the previous post I was in perfect agreement with yours. It was just as I kept reading it seemed like it was describing the current US (much of it headquartered in New York).Of course with the increase in power and affluence gained by helping the beast I'm sure it would not take long for the items I currently see as best fitting New York to transfer to Rome.
Actually as I think about it further that does make more sense.
Thank You
But the whore has to be drunk with the blood of the saints.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I wondered with a great wonder.
Only one religious religion that forbids marriage that murdered thousands of people because they disagreed with their doctrine.
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by them that believe and know the truth.
Like t8 said the only one that has other religions (daughters) that were produced from her.
And the only one with “The Most Holy Father”.
Thanks for all your interesting thoughts.
Another candidate that is popular is the World Council of Churches, (WCC). Certainly the name is a bit of a worry as it suggests a worldly title. Interestingly enough, it was formed in 1948, the same year Israel was established.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Council_of_Churches
However, if the WCC was the Babylon spoken of in the Book of Revelation, it would most likely have to be a future WCC with a powerful future. Currently the WCC doesn't seem to fit the description or fulfill the description in Revelation.
Some have speculated that the WCC will become very powerful in the future and will actually help to place the Antichrist on his throne, before he turns against them.
Anyway, I read this on the WCC “Who are we” webpage:
The World Council of Churches is a fellowship of churches which confess the Lord Jesus Christ as God and Saviour according to the scriptures, and therefore seek to fulfil together their common calling to the glory of the one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
http://wcc-coe.org/wcc/who/index-e.html
However, I still think Rome fits the description the best. Pure speculation though.
There's only one thing lacking that would be (thanks to our Catholic friend) seven mountains, not hills.
I over looked Rev.17 and just believed that she sat on seven hills. While Jerusalem sits on mountains she doesn't fit any of the other traits.
Wait! Actually the Christians came from Jews! So you could say that all of christianity (catholic, protestant and any other church that teaches the Trinty) are the daughters of the Jews.
Why would the Catholic church fit everything but the seven mountains in Jerusalem?
The Catholic Pope would have to join with the AntiChrist Jew and declare him the Messiah.
Is the Pope the false prophet?The whore joins with the Jewish Antichrist in the “Holy City” that sits on seven mountains. She rides the political beast.
Church and State!Quote Another candidate that is popular is the World Council of Churches, (WCC).
Interesting. I didn't even know such a council existed.The WCC appears to be a united front for the churches outside of the Catholic Church. The mother isn't part of her and probably doesn't need to be as she is many times bigger than all the daughters.
But the WCC under one head could lead all the daughters back to the mother in one foul swoop. It would be very hard to do this with each individual denomination, but by putting them under one government, it would be a lot easier.
They say it is about unity and surely unity is a noble cause. But unity of what? They admit that the Trinity doctrine is their foundation or cause, so there really isn't to much dividing them from the Catholics if their doctrinal foundations are the same.
From Wikipedia:
The World Council of Churches (WCC) is the principal international Christian ecumenical organization. Based in Geneva, Switzerland, it has a membership of over 340 churches and denominations and those churches and denominations claim about 400 million Christian members throughout more than 120 countries. The current General Secretary of the WCC is Samuel Kobia.
After the initial successes of the Ecumenical Movement in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, including the Edinburgh Missionary Conference of 1910 (chaired by future WCC Honorary President John R. Mott), church leaders (in 1937) agreed to establish a World Council of Churches, based on a merger of the Faith and Order Movement and Life and Work Movement organisations. Its official establishment was deferred with the outbreak of World War II until August 23, 1948. Delegates of 147 churches assembled in Amsterdam to merge the Faith and Order Movement and Life and Work Movement.
Subsequently mergers were with the International Missionary Council in 1961 and the World Council of Christian Education, with its roots in the 18th century Sunday School movement, in 1971.
WCC member churches include nearly all the world's Orthodox churches; numerous Protestant churches, such as the Anglican Communion, some Baptists, many Lutheran, Methodist, and Reformed, and a broad sampling of united and independent churches.
The largest Christian body, the Roman Catholic Church, is not a member of the WCC, but has worked closely with the Council for more than three decades and sends observers to all major WCC conferences as well as to its Central Committee meetings and the Assemblies. The Vatican's Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity also nominates 12 members to the WCC's Faith and Order Commission as full members. While not a member of the WCC, the Roman Catholic Church is a member of some other ecumenical bodies at regional and national levels, for example, the National Council of Churches in Australia and the National Council of Christian Churches in Brazil (CONIC).
Delegates sent from the member churches meet every seven years in an Assembly, which elects a Central Committee that governs between Assemblies. A variety of other committees and commissions answer to the Central Committee and its staff.
These Assemblies have been held since 1948, and last met in Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2006, under the theme “God, in your grace, transform the world”.
Quote They say it is about unity and surely unity is a noble cause. But unity of what? They admit that the Trinity doctrine is their foundation or cause, so there really isn't to much dividing them from the Catholics if their doctrinal foundations are the same.
You are right. While they may share the trinity belief, they are not united with their beliefs or standards.
If the world went to war again, what would happen? Would they kill one another, and themselves again? I think killing someone shows a lack of unity with them.
t8, I am wondering where you think other (non-Christendom) religions fit into the picture?david
To david,
Most non-christendom religions are not true and are doctrines of demons. Those that profess to be biblically based are influenced by paganism to different degrees. The Trinity is one of the most successful pagan gods or doctrines that has been preserved in so-called christian religions.
The simple fact is Jesus is the truth and all others who claim to be the way are liars and thieves.
False doctrines, false prophets, and false teachers have at least one thing in common, they are all false. There also exists plenty of deception even outside of the Trinity doctrine. It is not the only deception out there, even if it is a major one.
The only way that we can avoid deception in this evil world, is to be led by God's Spirit.
Romans 8:14
because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.Nowhere is it written that “those who belong to the Catholic Church are sons of God, or those who have membership in the Jehovah Witnesses organisation are sons of God.
In fact no denomination can save a man's soul, yet some men trust them with their lives even though we are specifically told to not trust in man.
Quote (david @ Mar. 22 2006,01:04) existed.
I didn't know this council existed either. I tell you what, it's sounds scary!!Quote To david, Most non-christendom religions are not true and are doctrines of demons. Those that profess to be biblically based are influenced by paganism to different degrees. The Trinity is one of the most successful pagan gods or doctrines that has been preserved in so-called christian religions.
The simple fact is Jesus is the truth and all others who claim to be the way are liars and thieves.
False doctrines, false prophets, and false teachers have at least one thing in common, they are all false. There also exists plenty of deception even outside of the Trinity doctrine. It is not the only deception out there, even if it is a major one.
The only way that we can avoid deception in this evil world, is to be led by God's Spirit.
Romans 8:14
because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.Nowhere is it written that “those who belong to the Catholic Church are sons of God, or those who have membership in the Jehovah Witnesses organisation are sons of God.
In fact no denomination can save a man's soul, yet some men trust them with their lives even though we are specifically told to not trust in man.
OK t8, as fond as I am of it, I wasn't looking for your anti-denomination speach again. I'm wondering how you believe the non-Christendom religions fit into the picture. You say a possible candidate for Babylon the Great is the World Council of Churches. Others believe it is the Catholic church or whatever. I'm wondering what you and others think of the other religions, how they fit into the picture?
david
It is possible that a world sick of religious violence may turn to unity of all religions for world peace. It would only take the Catholics, WCC, and Islam to unite the majority of those who believe in a God. They all have common threads on which they could unite. Of course extremists wouldn't have a bar of it, but moderates out number extremists.
However, Revelation points to Babylon as a city that will be destroyed in one day. This is certainly how it was with old Babylon. Somehow I suspect that Rome (the Beast) infiltrated the Church to create it's own Church which over time became the Roman Catholic Church and is still based in that city to this day. Some who rebelled against this organisation also built kingdoms in their own name and they became the daughter denominations, for their foundations were similar or the same as the creedal foundation of the Catholics.
It has now got to the point where men think that we need to choose a denomination. However one should think about the Church before all this happened and see that the Church is spiritual and not an earthly organisation.
As far as other religions go, it may be possible that they all come under some umbrella organisation for the sake of world peace. I can only speculate.
However we are told that men still worship idols even to the end, so perhaps Babylon the Great isn't a reference to all false religions, but a particular one. Of course it depends whether the destruction of Babylon is before or after this next verse.
Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:T8 said:
Quote “It is possible that a world sick of religious violence may turn to unity of all religions for world peace.” I believe that a “world sick of religious violence” and war and hatred will turn on religion, abolishing it, and that this will trigger the world saying: “Peace and Security,” and that this will be the beginning of the end of this system of things.
The United Nations purpose, as declared in their charter, chapter 1, article 1: “To maintain international peace and security.”
These are the first words of the “purposes of the United Nations.”
Has not religion always seemed to be a stumbling block to peace and security, their proclaimed purpose? Tolerance for religion is wearing thinner and thinner. Factions inside the U.N. are growing less tolerant of the cause of war and looking for a solution.REVELATION 17:15-18
“And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. And the TEN HORNS that you saw, AND THE WILD BEAST, these WILL HATE THE HARLOT [Babylon the Great] and will MAKE HER DEVASTATED and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and WILL COMPLETELY BURN HER WITH FIRE. For God put [it] into their hearts TO CARRY OUT HIS THOUGHT, even to carry out [their] one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished. And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.””This destruction of Babylon the Great by the “ten horns” and the “wild beast” may SEEM to bring peace. They may SAY “Peace and security!”
1 THESSALONIANS 5:2-3
“For you yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. Whenever it is that they are saying: “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.”But this call of ‘peace and security’ does not mean there is really true peace, or security. (Compare Jer 8:11; 23:16, 17, 19, 20.)
Just wondering what people’s thoughts are on this.
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