The Whore of Babylon

Participant

Hello friends, thanks for your comments.

One of the main reasons I looked into this subject was to defend the Catholic Church and to disprove that it is the Whore of Babylon. The earliest Christians leave their personal opinions in various writings, most of which is in direct opposition to the common fundamentalist, dispensationalist views.

Let's start with the last question first, because the Catholic position is very simple: when the end is near, we will see the “signs of the times,” an apostasy from the true faith, and an Antichrist, whom many will see as a man of peace and wonders.

The antichrist

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

It was the Jews that rejected Jesus Christ was the messiah. Now, has any Pope ever denied that Christ has come in the flesh? Ever?

Who is the Harlot?

Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

Jer 2:20 For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.

Jer 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

Eze 16:15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
Eze 16:16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.
Eze 16:17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,
Eze 16:18 And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.

Sounds like they are talking about Jerusalem, lets confirm this.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that GREAT CITY, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Where is the Great City?

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, WHERE ALSO OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED.

We know Jesus was differently NOT crucified in Rome, it was Jerusalem.

How about all the “jewels” and “golden cup” and “scarlet” and “purple”
Compare Revelation with the following, Her clothing “the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold and precious stones and pearls” and The holy vestments for Aaron and his sons.
Exo 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exo 28:4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exo 28:5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.
Exo 28:6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.
Exo 28:7 It shall have the two shoulderpieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.
Exo 28:8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
Please read the whole of Exodus 28.
The Whore in other words wore the robes and diadem of the JEWISH HIGH PRIEST. AND the Jerusalem Temple is undoubtedly what Revelation is referring to, and Flavius Josephus left us writings that tell us what the Jerusalem Temple looked like at the time of its destruction by pagan Rome in A.D. 70. Here are a few tidbits:
The holiest part of the Temple:
“Its front was covered with gold all over… But that gate which was at this end of the first part of the house was, as we have already observed, all over covered with gold, as was its whole wall about it; it had also golden vines above it, from which clusters of grapes hung as tall as a man's height. But then this house… had golden doors of fifty-five cubits altitude, and sixteen in breadth; but before these doors there was a veil of equal largeness with the doors. It was a Babylonian curtain, embroidered with blue, and fine linen, and scarlet, and purple, and of a contexture that was truly wonderful.”

The exterior of the Temple:
“…the outward face of the temple in its front wanted nothing that was likely to surprise either men's minds or their eyes; for it was covered all over with plates of gold of great weight, and, at the first rising of the sun, reflected back a very fiery splendor, and made those who forced themselves to look upon it to turn their eyes away, just as they would have done at the sun's own rays.”

The priests' vestments:
“But that girdle that tied the garment to the breast was embroidered with five rows of various colors, of gold, and purple, and scarlet, as also of fine linen and blue, with which colors we told you before the veils of the temple were embroidered also. The like embroidery was upon the ephod; but the quantity of gold therein was greater. Its figure was that of a stomacher for the breast. There were upon it two golden buttons like small shields, which buttoned the ephod to the garment; in these buttons were enclosed two very large and very excellent sardonyxes, having the names of the tribes of that nation engraved upon them: on the other part there hung twelve stones, three in a row one way, and four in the other; a sardius, a topaz, and an emerald; a carbuncle, a jasper, and a sapphire; an agate,
an amethyst, and a ligure; an onyx, a beryl, and a chrysolite; upon every one of which was again engraved one of the forementioned names of the tribes.”
Read Flavius Josephus book 5, click on link below and scroll down to Chapter 5, which is headed a description of the temple. http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-5.htm

What other clues can be ascertained about her? She committed fornications,”having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication…the mother of the fornications and the abominations of the earth.” What did the prophet Hosea say about the nation of Israel?
Hos 2:2 Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;
Hos 2:3 Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst.
Hos 2:4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms.
Hos 2:5 For their mother hath played the harlot: she that conceived them hath done shamefully: for she said, I will go after my lovers, that give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, mine oil and my drink.
Hos 2:6 Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths.
Hos 2:7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.
Hos 2:8 For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal.
Hos 2:9 Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and my wine in the season thereof, and will recover my wool and my flax given to cover her nakedness.
Hos 2:10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand.
But JERUSALEM apostasized and failed to recognise and then killed (with Roman power) the Messiah of prophecy. Revelations tells us what “the woman,” Jerusalem, came to have upon her forehead:
Exo 28:36 And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.
Exo 28:37 And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.
Exo 28:38 And it shall be upon Aaron's FOREHEAD, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his FOREHEAD, that they may be accepted before the LORD.

Rev 17:5 And upon her FOREHEAD was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Let’s now look at the seven Mountains, Rome or Jerusalem?

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Rome isn't built on seven mountains, it's built on seven hills, as are Constaninople, Edinburgh, San Francisco, and Cincinnati. Mountains are big, hills are small. In Greek G3735 is used for Mountain and G1015 is used for hills? Revelations talks of mountains G3735 and NOT hills G1015.
There are two separate words for them in Scripture.

Luk 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Rome's seven hills are Palatine, Aventine, Capitoline, Quarinal, Viminal, Esquiline and Caelian (hey, how come Vatican Hill is never listed?).

Jerusalem, however, is built on seven mountains: Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah. There are even Psalms about them,

Psa 125:2 As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever.

The Beasts

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
That sixth “king,” the “one that is,” was the infamous Nero (part of the “beast from the land”), a man who killed his own parents, brother, and aunt, who kicked his pregnant wife to death, who delighted in torture and homosexual rape, who used the burning bodies of Christians as “torches” at his garden parties and who commanded complete obedience.
The pagan writer Apollinius of Tyana who lived in Nero's time wrote:
“In my travels, which have been wider than ever man yet accomplished, I have seen many, many wild beasts of Arabia and India; but this beast, that is commonly called a Tyrant, I know not how many heads it has, nor if it be crooked of claw, and armed with horrible fangs. . . . And of wild beasts you cannot say that they were ever known to eat their own mother, but Nero has gorged himself on this diet.”
Nero persecution the Christians because they refused to participate in the “cult of the Caesars”; it was under him that Peter, Paul and a legion of Christians were martyred in Rome. To understand the bit in Revelation 13:3 about the healed fatal wound, pick up a history book and read about the wars in Rome between the reigns of Nero and Galba, the wars that almost brought the empire to its knees, and from which it recovered. After Nero's reign came the “Year of the Four Emperors,” a crisis of succession that was resolved when Vespasian finally took the throne.
Nero and the other Roman emperors are the beast from the land. It was Titus who led the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple (under his father, Vespasian). He is known for the catastrophes that struck during his reign: the eruption of Vesuvius in A.D. 79, fires that swept Rome for three days, one of the worst epidemics of plague on record… He reigned for two years.

The Mark of the Beast
The mark of the Beast is the “negative” of this sign of God, and it belonged to those who bowed down in idolatry to pagan emperors, those self-proclaimed gods.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
The Christian sign is that indelible mark given when we are sealed to the Holy Spirit, a mark made by the laying on of hands and signing a Cross with oil on the forehead Catholics call this Sacrament “Confirmation”. (see Acts 8:14-17, 19:5-6)
Emperor cult worship is well known in the Roman empire. Nero claimed to be the equal of the god Apollo. Seneca taught Nero that he was destined to become the revelation of divine Augustus and the god Apollo(Seneca On Clemency 1.1.6; Gentry 1989b, 63). The Hebrew word “BALAAM” (worship of man) interestingly enough also adds up to 666.
It should also be noted that the Greek word for “Beast” when transliterated
back into Hebrew adds up to 666. Ancient writers referred to Nero as a “beast” (See Philostratus Vit. Apoll. 4.38; Sib. Or. 5.343; 8.157).
No Jew ever thought of Nero except as ‘Neron Kesar,’ and guess what his name “Neron Kesar” adds up to 666.
Number six is one short of the perfect seven, and three indicates completeness, so the imperfect number six given three times symbolizes “complete imperfection.
God had promised blessings to the Jews if they obeyed, Deut 28: 8 and seven curses if they disobeyed, verses 15 -20. God’s Covenant is effected by His Oath. The word “oath” is based on the word “seven.” And so the number “seven” represents the COVENANT. In Leviticus he threatens to punish the Jews with fire if they break the COVENANT.
“…if you reject my precepts and spurn my decrees, refusing to obey all my commandments and breaking my covenant, then I… If, despite all this, you still persist in disobeying and defying me, I, also, will meet you with fiery defiance and will chastise you with SEVENFOLD fiercer punishment for your sins…”(Leviticus 26: 15-16, 27- 28)
SEVENFOLD could this be the seven beasts?
Jesus told who the Whore is.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and CRUCIFY; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your HOUSE IS LEFT unto you DESOLATE.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall NOT see me henceforth, TILL YE SHALL SAY, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And Jesus told us what would happen to her.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the TEMPLE: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall NOT BE LEFT HERE ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER, that shall not be thrown down.

Even before the death of the last Apostles we find the Jews “drunk …with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus” Let us not forget Stephen's speech before the Jews and his martyrdom in the The Acts of The Apostles.
Act 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Act 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
Act 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
Act 7:46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
And in what Generation?
Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O GENERATION of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the WRATH TO COME?

Luk 9:41 And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse GENERATION, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of THIS GENERATION;
Luk 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the TEMPLE: verily I say unto you, It SHALL BE REQUIRED of THIS GENERATION.

Why? Because they rejected the Messiah

Mat 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be ON US, and on our children.
And as the Jews rallied to send Christ to the Romans for execution, what did they say? They said, “His blood be on us, and on our children!” (Matthew 27:25). The judgement that they called down upon themselves, that Jesus warned them about, that the Old Testament Prophets warned them about, happened in A.D. 70, when the Temple was destroyed by the Beast (the pagan Roman empire and/or its emperors) and the Jews were scattered into the Diaspora. It was devastation, the end of Jerusalem, the “last day” of the Old Covenant!
Flavius Josephus describes the destruction of the temple:
“Now the number of those that were carried captive during this whole war was collected to be ninety-seven thousand; as was the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand, the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city itself; for they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army, which, at the very first, occasioned so great a straitness among them, that there came a pestilential destruction upon them, and soon afterward such a famine, as destroyed them more suddenly. And that this city could contain so many people in it, is manifest by that number of them which was taken under Cestius, who being desirous of informing Nero of the power of the city, who otherwise was disposed to contemn that nation, entreated the high priests, if the thing were possible, to take the number of their whole multitude….

…Now this vast multitude is indeed collected out of remote places, but the entire nation was now shut up by fate as in prison, and the Roman army encompassed the city when it was crowded with inhabitants. Accordingly, the multitude of those that t
herein perished exceeded all the destructions that either men or God ever brought upon the world; for, to speak only of what was publicly known, the Romans slew some of them, some they carried captives, and others they made a search for under ground, and when they found where they were, they broke up the ground and slew all they met with. There were also found slain there above two thousand persons, partly by their own hands, and partly by one another, but chiefly destroyed by the famine; but then the ill savor of the dead bodies was most offensive to those that lighted upon them, insomuch that some were obliged to get away immediately, while others were so greedy of gain, that they would go in among the dead bodies that lay on heaps, and tread upon them; for a great deal of treasure was found in these caverns, and the hope of gain made every way of getting it to be esteemed lawful…And now the Romans set fire to the extreme parts of the city, and burnt them down, and entirely demolished its walls.
In The Jewish War he writes,
The countryside like the City was a pitiful sight; for where once there had been a lovely vista of woods and parks there was nothing but desert and stumps of trees. No one – not even a foreigner – who had seen the Old Judea and the glorious suburbs of the City, and now set eyes on her present desolation, could have helped sighing and groaning at so terrible a change; for every trace of beauty had been blotted out by war, and nobody who had known it in the past and came upon it suddenly would have recognized the place: when he was already there he would still have been looking for the City.
It also had been prophesied that Jerusalem would be destroyed by fire in the following passages.
” Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations. Thus says the Lord GOD to Jerusalem … Therefore, harlot, hear the word of the LORD! … I will inflict on you the sentence of adulteresses and murderesses; I will wreak fury and jealousy upon you. … 41 They shall burn your apartments with fire and inflict punishments on you while many women look on. Thus I will put an end to your harlotry, and you shall never again give payment.” (Ezekiel 16: 2-3, 35, 38, 41)
” Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother, who even as young girls played the harlot in Egypt. … (As for their names: Samaria is Oholah, and Jerusalem is Oholibah.) … Therefore, Oholibah, thus says the Lord GOD: …They shall take away your sons and daughters, and what is left of you shall be devoured by fire. And indeed they did come to her as men come to a harlot. Thus they came to Oholah and Oholibah, the lewd women. But just men shall punish them with the sentence meted out to adulteresses and murderesses, for they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands.… The assembly shall stone them and hack them to pieces with their swords. They shall slay their sons and daughters, and burn their houses with fire.” (Ezekiel 23: 2-4, 17-19, 22-25, 44-47 )
The burning of Jerusalem by fire also had theological significance. The City of Jerusalem is often referred to as a daughter.
” … They hiss and wag their heads over daughter Jerusalem: ‘Is this the all-beautiful city, the joy of the whole earth?’ …The LORD has done as he decreed: he has fulfilled the threat He set forth from days of old; he has destroyed and had no pity, …Cry out to the Lord; moan, O daughter Zion!” (Lamentations 2:15-18 )
Unfaithfulness to God is frequently compared to sexual immorality. The penalty for fornication by the daughter of the priest called for a special punishment. It was to be burned to death.
“A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.” (Leviticus 21:9 )
So, when Jerusalem was offered the grace to accept Christ, but instead rejected Him, she is referred to as the “Whore of Babylon” who is subsequently burnt to death.
Blessing Brothers
Father Son and Holy Spirit

Please note I don’t pretend to be wise or have great knowledge on this subject, all this information is from those that love the Catholic Church and defend her.
They have done all the hard work researching, from which I have quoted them in great length. The Catholic Church is not the Whore, it is the Bride. It is not a revelation by God that the Catholic Church is the Whore but by Satan himself and Jesus told us this would happen. Mat 10:25

Keep your eyes on the temple they have already tried to rebuild it in the past. This is where Satan will try and sit himself and proclaim to all the Jews he is the true messiah. Then Jesus our Lord and God [as doubting Thomas finally called him] will come and so will the end.

February 12, 2006 at 6:10 am#41469

Participant

Scripture Seeker,

After reading your posts it became obvious that you believe that the Jews are the antichrist and Jerusalem the harlot. Please read this scripture then Romans chapter 11.

Rom 11:26 and so “ALL” Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The Word is truth (John 17:17).

February 12, 2006 at 8:31 am#41468

Participant

Kenrch very good point, one of the points I have missed. YES I do release that all Israel SHALL be saved. Note the word “SHALL” or do you believe that every Jew is saved no matter what they do? I believe they will be saved after the man of peace and wonder comes he will deceive them for a time but there eyes will be opened to the truth and they will be persecuted and will call on the messiah that they once rejected. God will hear there cry and come down to there rescue [and ours].

Kenrch there are other important points I have missed, I do not claim to have all the answers.

Who do you think “The Whore of Babylon” is? And if not Jerusalem please explain all the scriptures that I have shown to prove it is Jerusalem.

And please explain how the high priests that denied and condemned Jesus to be crucified are not antichrists? There are many antichrists.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, THE SAME hath NOT the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1Jo 4:3 And EVERY spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even NOW ALREADY IS it in the world.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there MANY antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

I have nothing against JEWS I worship one his name is Jesus.

Thanks for your reply.

February 13, 2006 at 12:26 am#41467

Participant

Quote

Rom 11:26 and so “ALL” Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
The Word is truth (John 17:17).

The word is truth. But you have to more. Are you saying that “all” of disobedient Israel that for the most part rejected the Son of God, will be saved?
Sometimes, when the Bible speaks of Israel, it is speaking of Spiritual Israel, “the Israel of God,” and not fleshly, natural Israel.

I just spent the last 3 hours looking at Romans 11. Some scriptures from outside of that chapter to ponder:

MATTHEW 21:42-43
“Jesus said to them: “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”
1 PETER 2:9
“But YOU are “A CHOSEN RACE, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR SPECIAL POSSESSION. . . .”
GALATIANS 3:29
“Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you ARE REALLY ABRAHAM’S SEED, HEIRS WITH REFERENCE TO A PROMISE.”
ROMANS 9:6-8
“However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not ALL WHO [SPRING] FROM ISRAEL ARE NOT REALLY “ISRAEL.” Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” That is, THE CHILDREN IN THE FLESH ARE NOT REALLY THE CHILDREN OF GOD, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.”
Notice that last scripture. Not all who come from Israel, meaning not all Israelites are really God's chosen people, Israel. When they rejected the chief cornerstone himself, they were rejected and replaced with a nation producing its fruits.

david.

February 13, 2006 at 6:10 am#41464

Participant

Quote

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
It was the Jews that rejected Jesus Christ was the messiah. Now, has any Pope ever denied that Christ has come in the flesh? Ever?

Scripture Seeker,

JOHN 1:14
“So the Word BECAME FLESH and resided among us….”
So he became human. Not part flesh, part God. He “became flesh,” or came in the flesh.

PHILIPPIANS 2:7
“No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”

How does this fit in with what for centuries the Catholics call: hypostatic union, where in Christ one person subsists in two natures, the Divine and the human?

Do you truly believe that Jesus emptied himself and became human? Or do you deny that he actually came “in the flesh?”

1 JOHN 4:2
“. . . Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God,”
2 JOHN 7
“For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.”

Jesus, who was “the Word” of God, “out of heaven,” divested himself of spirit nature and “became flesh.” (Joh 1:1; 1Co 15:47; Php 2:5-8; Joh 1:14; 1Ti 3:16)

That in being born as a human he was no spirit and that he did not merely assume a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past (Ge 18:1-3; 19:1; Jos 5:13-15), is attested to by the apostle John, who says that one is antichrist who denies that Jesus Christ came “in the flesh.” (1Jo 4:2, 3)

In order to provide the ransom for mankind and thereby to help those who would be his associates in the heavenly calling, the Word became flesh, being born all human, no incarnation.

The Bible tells us this: “Since the ‘young children’ are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly partook of the same things.” (Heb 2:14-16)

His earthly sojourn was spoken of as “the days of his flesh.” (Heb 5:7) Compare Romans 1:3.

The Scriptures make it clear that Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death.
John did not say that the Word was merely clothed with flesh. He “BECAME FLESH” and was not part flesh and part God. If Jesus had been human and divine at the same time, it could not have been said that he had been “made a little lower than angels.”—Hebrews 2:9; Psalm 8:4, 5.

If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to Jehovah? Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.”—Hebrews 5:7.

That Jesus was not partly a spirit when on the earth is proved by Peter’s statement that Christ was “put to death in the flesh, but . . . made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Only because Jesus was wholly human could he have experienced what imperfect people experience and thus become a sympathetic high priest. Wrote Paul: “We have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.”—Hebrews 4:15.

As “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world,” Jesus “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (John 1:29; 1 Timothy 2:6) In that way, Jesus bought back exactly what Adam had lost—perfect, eternal human life. Since God’s justice required ‘soul for soul,’ Jesus thus had to be what Adam was originally—a perfect human, not a God-man.—Deuteronomy 19:21; 1 Corinthians 15:22.

Quote

It was the Jews that rejected Jesus Christ was the messiah. Now, has any Pope ever denied that Christ has come in the flesh? Ever?

In my opinion, ya, all the time. Your encylopedias deny it as well.
I'm not saying that this proves that Catholicism is Babylon the Great, but rather, I'm saying that it seems Catholics don't really believe that Jesus “became flesh,” or became truly human.

david.

February 13, 2006 at 6:24 am#41465

Participant

Babylon the Great is the global system of religion that bears the earmarks of ancient Babylon. Consider some of the similarities:

· The priests of ancient Babylon were deeply involved in the nation’s political affairs. That is true of much religion today.

· Babylon’s priests often promoted the nation’s warfare. Modern-day religion has often been in the forefront of those blessing soldiers as the nations have gone to war.

· The teachings and practices of ancient Babylon led the nation into gross immorality. When religious leaders today push the Bible’s standard of morality aside, immorality is rampant among both clergy and laity. Noteworthy also is the fact that because Babylon the Great prostitutes herself to the world and its political systems, Revelation depicts her as a harlot.

· The Bible also says that Babylon the Great lives “in shameless luxury.” In ancient Babylon, the temple organization acquired extensive landholdings, and the priests became prominent in commercial activities. Today, in addition to places of worship, Babylon the Great has vast commercial holdings. Her teachings and her holidays bring great riches both to her and to others in the business world.

· Use of images, magic, and sorcery were common in ancient Babylon, as they are in many places today. Death was viewed as a passage to another kind of life. Babylon was filled with temples and chapels in honor of its gods, but the Babylonians opposed worshipers of Jehovah. The same beliefs and practices identify Babylon the Great.

February 13, 2006 at 6:32 am#41466

Participant

Here is another clue as to who Babylon the Great, the harlot is:

At Revelation 17:18, she is described as “the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”
This allows her to sit on “many waters,” which mean “peoples and crowds and nations and tongues,” as shown at Revelation 17:1, 15. According to verse 3 in the same chapter, she is also seen sitting on a seven-headed wild beast—beasts being commonly used in the Bible as symbols of worldly political powers, or organizations.

So what does all this mean?

This indicates that the harlot, Babylon the Great, is the embodiment of an exalted empire, one that dominates other authorities and their subjects. This can only be the empire of the world’s false religions.

The influence of religious leaders on matters of state policy and politics is a well-known part of history. The World Book Encyclopedia states: “After the fall of the West Roman Empire [5th century], the pope had more authority than any other person in Europe. . . . The pope exercised political as well as spiritual authority. In 800, Pope Leo III crowned the Frankish ruler Charlemagne [Charles the Great] emperor of the Romans. . . . Leo III had established the pope’s right to make an emperor’s authority lawful.”

The authority that the Catholic Church and its “princes” wielded over rulers was further exemplified by cardinal Thomas Wolsey (1475?-1530). He is described as “the most powerful person in England for many years.” Under the rule of King Henry VIII, he “soon was the controlling figure in all matters of state. . . . He lived in royal splendor and reveled in his power.” The encyclopedia account continues: “Cardinal Wolsey spent his great abilities as a statesman and administrator mainly in managing England’s foreign affairs for Henry VIII.”

Another outstanding example of Catholic authority over secular matters of state is Cardinal Richelieu of France (1585-1642), who “for more than 18 years . . . was the actual ruler of France.” The previously quoted source states: “He was extremely ambitious and soon became impatient for higher office.” He was made a cardinal in 1622 “and soon became the leading influence in the French government.” Apparently, he was a man of action, for “he led the royal army in person at the siege of La Rochelle.” The article adds: “Richelieu’s greatest interest was in foreign affairs.”

The Vatican’s continued involvement with the political authorities is clearly seen by the constant announcements in the Vatican paper L’Osservatore Romano of foreign diplomats presenting their credentials to the sovereign pope. Evidently the Vatican has a network of loyal Catholics who can keep the pope informed on political and diplomatic developments worldwide.

Many more examples could be given to illustrate the powerful influence of religious leaders—both inside and outside Christendom—in the political affairs of this world.

Ancient Babylonian religious concepts and practices are found in religions worldwide:
“Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion . . . The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic elements are to a large extent more specifically Babylonian.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., pp. 699, 700.

Their gods:
There were triads of gods, and among their divinities were those representing various forces of nature and ones that exercised special influence in certain activities of mankind. (Babylonian and Assyrian Religion, Norman, Okla.; 1963, S. H. Hooke, pp. 14-40) “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato’s] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

Use of images:
“[In Mesopotamian religion] the role of the image was central in the cult as well as in private worship, as the wide distribution of cheap replicas of such images shows. Fundamentally, the deity was considered present in its image if it showed certain specific features and paraphernalia and was cared for in the appropriate manner.”—Ancient Mesopotamia—Portrait of a Dead Civilization (Chicago, 1964), A. L. Oppenheim, p. 184.

Belief regarding death:
“Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought [in Babylon] ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, p. 556.

Position of the priesthood:
“The distinction between priest and layman is characteristic of this [Babylonian] religion.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1948), Vol. 2, p. 861.

Practice of astrology, divination, magic, and sorcery:
Historian A. H. Sayce writes: “[In] the religion of ancient Babylonia . . . every object and force of nature was supposed to have its zi or spirit, who could be controlled by the magical exorcisms of the Shaman, or sorcerer-priest.” (The History of Nations, New York, 1928, Vol. I, p. 96) “The Chaldeans [Babylonians] made great progress in the study of astronomy through an effort to discover the future in the stars. This art we call ‘astrology.’”—The Dawn of Civilization and Life in the Ancient East (Chicago, 1938), R. M. Engberg, p. 230.

Babylon the Great is like an immoral harlot, one living in shameless luxury:

Revelation 17:1-5 says: “‘Come, I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters [peoples], with whom the kings [political rulers] of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.’ . . . And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: ‘Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.’” Revelation 18:7 adds that “she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury.”

Is it not true that the dominant religious organizations have made it a practice to consort with political rulers for power and material gain, though this has resulted in suffering for the common people? Is it not also true that their higher clergy live in luxury, even though many of the people to whom they should minister may be impoverished?

Just some thoughts. Too many thoughts.

david.

February 13, 2006 at 7:47 am#41462

Is 1:18

Participant

Thanks Scripture Seeker. I have printed your post off and will read it through a few times over the next few days. I'll reply sometime over the next week or so.

Be well.

February 13, 2006 at 7:52 am#41463

Participant

Quote (david @ Feb. 13 2006,00:26)

Quote

Rom 11:26 and so “ALL” Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
The Word is truth (John 17:17).

I just spent the last 3 hours looking at Romans 11. Some scriptures from outside of that chapter to ponder:

david.

Attack, attack!

Oh well tell Paul he won't make it because he's a Jew!
Rom 11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

You read what you want to believe. I know that I'm a spiritual Jew but does that mean if a Jew accepts Christ he won't be accepted because he Jewish? NO!

What do you know about being spiritual anyway.

I know it's at the botton of the page but read it here.

1Co 2:14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:18 glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:26 and so all Israel [provided they accept Jesus that's what being saved means doesn't it] shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

February 14, 2006 at 6:34 am#41461

Participant

Kenrch, you miss my point.

“Tell Paul he won't make it because he is a [natural] Jew.”
Paul will make it. But it's not because he's a natural Jew.
Being a natural or fleshly Jew certainly doesn't mean Paul's salvation.

Didn't Paul say: “THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN JEW [fleshly Jews] AND GREEK, for there is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him.” (Rom 10:12)

And didn't he say:
“However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not ALL WHO [SPRING] FROM ISRAEL ARE NOT REALLY “ISRAEL.” Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” That is, THE CHILDREN IN THE FLESH ARE NOT REALLY THE CHILDREN OF GOD, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.” (Rom 9:6-8)
This doesn’t mean that no one from the nation of Israel makes up this spiritual Israel. The “Israel of God” comes from Jews and from the nations.
But being a natural fleshly Jews, means nothing.

Kenrch, did you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. This is why I say to you Kenrch, The kingdom of God has been taken from them and be given to a nation producing its fruits. (mt 21:43)

Quote

Rom 11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

If you only read the first 10 words of Hebrews 11, I guess you could make a case that Israel, all Israel will be saved, and wasn't cast off.

Did God cast off [all] his people? No. “FOR I am also an Israelite.”
If we miss that word “for” then we miss the meaning, FOR Paul explains how the first statement is true, just as this sentence does, with the word “for.” “For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.” What did Paul mean by this?
Paul could not have believed that the Israelites as a nation still had a special place with God, for the apostle expressed “great grief and unceasing pain in [his] heart” over their unresponsiveness to God’s goodness. (Romans 9:2-5)

At Romans 9:6 Paul adds:
“However, it is not as though the word of God [to Abraham] had failed. FOR NOT ALL WHO SPRING FROM [natural] ISRAEL ARE REALLY ‘ISRAEL.’”
Note what Paul is saying: that because the Jews rejected Christ, God no longer considered them to be Israel! The anointed congregation of Jesus Christ’s followers was now the real “Israel,” the instrument through which God would bless all mankind.
God, though, did not reject the Jewish people as individuals, for Paul pointed out:
“FOR I also am an Israelite.” And so, obviously, God didn't reject [all] Israel “for” Paul is an Israelite.
Yes, individuals within the Jewish nation, like Paul, could become part of spiritual Israel if they accepted Christ. Only “a remnant,” a minority, chose to do so.
Notice this in Paul’s words:
ROMANS 9:27
“Moreover, Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Although the number of the sons of Israel [fleshly Israel] may be as the sand of the sea, it is the REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED.”
ROMANS 11:5
“In this way, therefore, at the present season also a REMNANT has turned up according to a choosing due to undeserved kindness.”

Notice that it said that a remnant of Israel would be saved. What is a remnant?

Quote

The very next verse says: “Although the number of the sons of Israel [fleshly Israel] may be as the sand of the sea, it is the REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED.”

Continuing on in verse 2:
ROMANS 11:2-3
“God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized. Why, do YOU not know what the Scripture says in connection with Elíjah, as he pleads with God against Israel? “Jehovah, they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and they are looking for my soul.”” (Notice, in 1 Kings 19:14, where this is quoted from, Eliyah also said that “the sons of Israel have left your covenant.”)
Looking at verse 2, we must understand it to mean that Jehovah didn’t completely reject ALL the Israelites, but that he did reject them as a nation. They were no longer his special property. We have to understand it this way based on his following remarks to Eliyah’s words and the response found in 1 Kings 19:18:
ROMANS 11:4-5
“Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left seven thousand men over for myself, [men] who have not bent the knee to Báal.” In this way, therefore, AT THE PRESENT SEASON ALSO a REMNANT has turned up according to a choosing due to undeserved kindness.”
Why according to undeserved kindness? Because the nation as a whole didn’t have the fruits or works necessary to keep the covenant. (Read Mat 21:43)
ROMANS 11:6
“Now if it is by undeserved kindness, it is no longer due to works; otherwise, the undeserved kindness no longer proves to be undeserved kindness.”
This “remnant that will be saved” does not deserve to be saved, because Israel broke the agreement. It is not by works that the remnant will be saved because the nation of Israel did not have the works or fruits necessary. But another nation did. (Mt 21:43)
ROMANS 11:7-10
“What, then? The very thing [fleshly] Israel is earnestly seeking he did not obtain, BUT THE ONES CHOSEN OBTAINED IT. The rest had their SENSIBILITIES BLUNTED; just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes so as not to see and ears so as not to hear, down to this very day.” Also, David says: “Let their table become for them a snare and a trap and a stumbling block and a retribution; let their eyes become darkened so as not to see, and always bow down their back.””

Some anticipate a dramatic change of heart on the part of all natural Jews. Interestingly, Paul does say at Romans 11:25, 26: “A dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel UNTIL the FULL NUMBER of people of the nations has come in, and IN THIS MANNER ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.”
Was Paul predicting a future mass conversion of the Jews? How could that be so, since he himself indicated that only a “remnant” of Jews would accept Christ? (Romans 11:5; 9:27) True, Paul did say that the Jews would experience a spiritual “dulling of sensibilities” UNTIL “the full number” of Gentiles came into the Christian congregation.
However, Greek scholar Richard Lenski shows that here the word “until” does not necessarily imply some later conversion. (Compare the use of “until” at Acts 7:17, 18 and Revelation 2:25.) Paul is actually saying that the natural Jews’ sensibilities would remain ‘dull’ right down to the end. God, however, wisely completes “the full number” of spiritual Israel (144,000) by bringing believing Gentiles into the Christian congregation. “And in this manner [not by the Jewish nation’s change of heart] all [spiritual] Israel will be saved.”

Quote

Quote (david @ Feb. 13 2006,00:26)
Quote
Rom 11:26 and so “ALL” Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
The Word is truth (John 17:17).

I just spent the last 3 hours looking at Romans 11. Some scriptures from outside of that chapter to ponder:

david.

Attack, attack!

Oh well tell Paul he won't make it because he's a Jew!

Kenrch, I didn't see a lot of attacking going on in what you quoted. Basically, I only quoted scriptures. And where did I say that Paul wouldn't make it because he's a natural Jew?

david.

February 15, 2006 at 1:01 am#41460

Participant

Quote (david @ Feb. 14 2006,06:34)

Kenrch, you miss my point.

“Tell Paul he won't make it because he is a [natural] Jew.”
Paul will make it. But it's not because he's a natural Jew.
Being a natural or fleshly Jew certainly doesn't mean Paul's salvation.

Didn't Paul say: “THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN JEW [fleshly Jews] AND GREEK, for there is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him.” (Rom 10:12)

Quote

Rom 11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

If you only read the first 10 words of Hebrews 11, I guess you could make a case that Israel, all Israel will be saved, and wasn't cast off.

Notice that it said that a remnant of Israel would be saved. What is a remnant?

Quote

The very next verse says: “Although the number of the sons of Israel [fleshly Israel] may be as the sand of the sea, it is the REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED.”

Some anticipate a dramatic change of heart on the part of all natural Jews. Interestingly, Paul does say at Romans 11:25, 26: “A dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel UNTIL the FULL NUMBER of people of the nations has come in, and IN THIS MANNER ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.”
Was Paul predicting a future mass conversion of the Jews? How could that be so, since he himself indicated that only a “remnant” of Jews would accept Christ? (Romans 11:5; 9:27) True, Paul did say that the Jews would experience a spiritual “dulling of sensibilities” UNTIL “the full number” of Gentiles came into the Christian congregation.
However, Greek scholar Richard Lenski shows that here the word “until” does not necessarily imply some later conversion. (Compare the use of “until” at Acts 7:17, 18 and Revelation 2:25.) Paul is actually saying that the natural Jews’ sensibilities would remain ‘dull’ right down to the end. God, however, wisely completes “the full number” of spiritual Israel (144,000) by bringing believing Gentiles into the Christian congregation. “And in this manner
[not by the Jewish nation’s change of heart] all [spiritual] Israel will be saved.”

Quote

I just spent the last 3 hours looking at Romans 11. Some scriptures from outside of that chapter to ponder:

david.

Attack, attack!

Oh well tell Paul he won't make it because he's a Jew!

Kenrch, I didn't see a lot of attacking going on in what you quoted. Basically, I only quoted scriptures. And where did I say that Paul wouldn't make it because he's a natural Jew?

david.

David,

“Tell Paul he won't make it because he is a [natural] Jew.”
Paul will make it. But it's not because he's a natural Jew.
Being a natural or fleshly Jew certainly doesn't mean Paul's salvation. You mean Paul will make it even if he's not a JWs?

There are no Catholic's, no Baptist, in short no one but the JWs that are going to make it. Isn't that true David? I don't know where ANYONE gets off telling people who God will and will not save!
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Judging by this scripture not even the JWs know who will be saved. I know this it won't be anyone of a particular “one” organization. Do you know why? For there is no respect of persons with God. Ummmmm does that mean Catholics too?

Just as every denomination has some truth every org. has some “true to the heart” believers.

You see there's where you miss it. There's the spiritual side that the JWs don't teach. Because you can't teach it. You can instruct, lead people in the sinner's prayer, but if the person has not repented of his sins, then Jesus will not become a part of that person's life.
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every SOUL of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

To the Jew first then to the Gentile. For there is no respect of persons with God.

This is what I said: “You read what you want to believe. I know that I'm a spiritual Jew but does that mean if a Jew accepts Christ he won't be accepted because he's Jewish? NO!”

I never claimed that just because your a Jew you will “automatically” be saved. I'm sure that the Israel that Paul is speaking about are saved, you know “Christian Jews”.

This was my last statement, I even add what Paul ment and put it in brackets:

“Rom 11:26 and so all Israel [provided they accept Jesus that's what being saved means doesn't it] shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

What is your problem David? “Provided they accept Jesus That's what being saved means doesn't it”

Scripture Seeking ask “who is the whore” you gave him a lot of “nothing” 'pertaining to the question'.

Read Rom. 11:26 ………….shall be saved? How do you get saved David? Do you know? You get saved when you accept Jesus. So I would imagine that the Israel that is saved have accepted Christ. Do you agree?

The only way I know how to get saved is to accept our LORD's sacrifice. It doesn't matter what race you are.

I thought you would know that. But no your in the flesh too much. You can't think spiritual if you don't have a spirit, David.

Now go on and tell me how a watch is made when I ask what time it is.

(ALT) stop being arrogant towards the branches. But if you are arrogant, [remember] _you_ do not sustain the root, _but_ the root [sustains] you!

(ASV) glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee.

(BBE) Do not be uplifted in pride over the branches: because it is not you who are the support of the root, but it is by the root that you are supported.

(ESV) do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

(GW) So don't brag about being better than the other branches. If you brag, remember that you don't support the root, the root supports you.

(HCSB) do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag–you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you.

(ISV) do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

(KJV+) Boast not against2620, 3361 the3588 branches.2798 But1161 if1487 thou boast,2620 thou4771 bearest941 not3756 the3588 root,4491 but235 the3588 root4491 thee.4571

(KJV-1611) Boast not against the branches: but if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

(KJVA) Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

(MRC) do not exalt yourself over the branches; but if you exalt yourself, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

(Murdock) do not glory over the branches. For if thou gloriest, thou sustainest not the root, but the root sustaineth thee.

(SVD) فَلاَ تَفْتَخِرْ عَلَى الأَغْصَانِ. وَإِنِ افْتَخَرْتَ فَأَن
ْتَ لَسْتَ تَحْمِلُ الأَصْلَ بَلِ الأَصْلُ إِيَّاكَ يَحْمِلُ!

(WEB) don't boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you

Who is the tree here? Who is the root here? If the roots die then what happens to the branches?

February 16, 2006 at 4:43 am#41459

Participant

Quote

After reading your posts it became obvious that you believe that the Jews are the antichrist and Jerusalem the harlot. Please read this scripture then Romans chapter 11.

Rom 11:26 and so “ALL” Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The Word is truth (John 17:17).

This feels like we're getting off topic, but I guess we're sort of discussing whether the natural Jews are Babylon the Great.

Kenrch, in the above quote, you mention what you think Scripture Seeker believes–Jews are the antichrist, Jerusalem the harlot.
Then you tell him to read Romans 11, specifically verse 26, where it speaks of all Israel being saved.
So I would obviously take that to mean that you think “all” Israel, the Israel he was speaking of, natural Israel, would be saved. Based on your comment, I don't know how anyone could think anything different.

Then, after my post, you told me to “tell Paul he won't make it because he's a Jew.” I never said anything like this. I never said Paul would not make it. But nevertheless, your words are still true, if taken the other way: “Paul won't make it BECAUSE he's a [natural] Jew.” He will make it because he is a spiritual Israelite. And no, I'm not the judge, but if he does make it, it won't be because he's of the Jewish nation. We both now seem to agree on that, so I'm not sure why you throw things like that at me.

There are no Catholic's, no Baptist, in short no one but the JWs that are going to make it. Isn't that true David? I don't know where ANYONE gets off telling people who God will and will not save!

Quote

If you're referring to me saying he won't save the nation of fleshly Jews as a whole, then I'm sticking with that, as I believe that's what the Bible says.

I never claimed that just because your a Jew you will “automatically” be saved. I'm sure that the Israel that Paul is speaking about are saved, you know “Christian Jews”.

Well sorry, but that's what I thought you were discussing and since he had been speaking of fleshly Jews and then you told him to read Romans 11:26 and then put the word “all” in quotation marks as the ones being saved, I definitely believed that what you thought.

February 16, 2006 at 4:47 am#41458

Participant

Sorry, somehow all the quote boxes aren't where they are supposed to be in the above post.
The first 3 paragraphs are me quoting Kenrch.
The next 3 paragraphs are me speaking.
Then, the next paragraph (which is outside the quote box) is me quoting Kenrch.
Then the next box quote is actually me speaking.
Ten the next sentence: “In never claimed…” is a quote from Kencrh.
Then, after that, it's me talking.

Man, that is a very confusing post with the quotes all messed up.
david.

February 17, 2006 at 3:49 am#41457

Sammo

Participant

Well – who does the Catholic Encyclopedia say that 'Babylon' is?

Quote

St. Peter's First Epistle was written almost undoubtedly from Rome, since the salutation at the end reads: “The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark” (v, 13). Babylon must here be identified with the Roman capital; since Babylon on the Euphrates, which lay in ruins, or New Babylon (Seleucia) on the Tigris, or the Egyptian Babylon near Memphis, or Jerusalem cannot be meant, the reference must be to Rome, the only city which is called Babylon elsewhere in ancient Christian literature (Revelation 17:5; 18:10; “Oracula Sibyl.”, V, verses 143 and 159, ed. Geffcken, Leipzig, 1902, 111).

Source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm

Almost ironic, don't you think!

Plenty more evidence here.

February 17, 2006 at 4:00 am#41456

Participant

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Feb. 11 2006,20:06)

Hello friends, thanks for your comments.

The antichrist

It was the Jews that rejected Jesus Christ was the messiah. Now, has any Pope ever denied that Christ has come in the flesh? Ever?

Who is the Harlot?

Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

Jer 2:20 For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.

Sounds like they are talking about Jerusalem, lets confirm this.

Where is the Great City?

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, WHERE ALSO OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED.

We know Jesus was differently NOT crucified in Rome, it was Jerusalem.

The priests' vestments:
“But that girdle that tied the garment to the breast was embroidered with five rows of various colors, of gold, and purple, and scarlet, as also of fine linen and blue, with which colors we told you before the veils of the temple were embroidered also. The like embroidery was upon the ephod; but the quantity of gold therein was greater. Its figure was that of a stomacher for the breast. There were upon it two golden buttons like small shields, which buttoned the ephod to the garment; in these buttons were enclosed two very large and very excellent sardonyxes, havi
ng the names of the tribes of that nation engraved upon them: on the other part there hung twelve stones, three in a row one way, and four in the other; a sardius, a topaz, and an emerald; a carbuncle, a jasper, and a sapphire; an agate, an amethyst, and a ligure; an onyx, a beryl, and a chrysolite; upon every one of which was again engraved one of the forementioned names of the tribes.”
Read Flavius Josephus book 5, click on link below and scroll down to Chapter 5, which is headed a description of the temple. http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-5.htm

Rev 17:5 And upon her FOREHEAD was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Let’s now look at the seven Mountains, Rome or Jerusalem?

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Rome's seven hills are Palatine, Aventine, Capitoline, Quarinal, Viminal, Esquiline and Caelian (hey, how come Vatican Hill is never listed?).

Jerusalem, however, is built on seven mountains: Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah. There are even Psalms about them,

Psa 125:2 As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever.

The Beasts

The Mark of the Beast
The mark of the Beast is the “negative” of this sign of God, and it belonged to those who bowed down in idolatry to pagan emperors, those self-proclaimed gods.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
The Christian sign is that indelible mark given when we are sealed to the Holy Spirit, a mark made by the laying on of hands and signing a Cross with oil on the forehead Catholics call this Sacrament “Confirmation”. (see Acts 8:14-17, 19:5-6)
Emperor cult worship is well known in the Roman empire. Nero claimed to be the equal of the god Apollo. Seneca taught Nero that he was destined to become the revelation of divin
e Augustus and the god Apollo(Seneca On Clemency 1.1.6; Gentry 1989b, 63). The Hebrew word “BALAAM” (worship of man) interestingly enough also adds up to 666.
It should also be noted that the Greek word for “Beast” when transliterated back into Hebrew adds up to 666. Ancient writers referred to Nero as a “beast” (See Philostratus Vit. Apoll. 4.38; Sib. Or. 5.343; 8.157).
No Jew ever thought of Nero except as ‘Neron Kesar,’ and guess what his name “Neron Kesar” adds up to 666.
Number six is one short of the perfect seven, and three indicates completeness, so the imperfect number six given three times symbolizes “complete imperfection.
God had promised blessings to the Jews if they obeyed, Deut 28: 8 and seven curses if they disobeyed, verses 15 -20. God’s Covenant is effected by His Oath. The word “oath” is based on the word “seven.” And so the number “seven” represents the COVENANT. In Leviticus he threatens to punish the Jews with fire if they break the COVENANT.
“…if you reject my precepts and spurn my decrees, refusing to obey all my commandments and breaking my covenant, then I… If, despite all this, you still persist in disobeying and defying me, I, also, will meet you with fiery defiance and will chastise you with SEVENFOLD fiercer punishment for your sins…”(Leviticus 26: 15-16, 27- 28)
SEVENFOLD could this be the seven beasts?
Jesus told who the Whore is.

And Jesus told us what would happen to her.

Luk 9:41 And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse GENERATION, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.

Why? Because they rejected the Messiah

…Now this
vast multitude is indeed collected out of remote places, but the entire nation was now shut up by fate as in prison, and the Roman army encompassed the city when it was crowded with inhabitants. Accordingly, the multitude of those that therein perished exceeded all the destructions that either men or God ever brought upon the world; for, to speak only of what was publicly known, the Romans slew some of them, some they carried captives, and others they made a search for under ground, and when they found where they were, they broke up the ground and slew all they met with. There were also found slain there above two thousand persons, partly by their own hands, and partly by one another, but chiefly destroyed by the famine; but then the ill savor of the dead bodies was most offensive to those that lighted upon them, insomuch that some were obliged to get away immediately, while others were so greedy of gain, that they would go in among the dead bodies that lay on heaps, and tread upon them; for a great deal of treasure was found in these caverns, and the hope of gain made every way of getting it to be esteemed lawful…And now the Romans set fire to the extreme parts of the city, and burnt them down, and entirely demolished its walls.
In The Jewish War he writes,
The countryside like the City was a pitiful sight; for where once there had been a lovely vista of woods and parks there was nothing but desert and stumps of trees. No one – not even a foreigner – who had seen the Old Judea and the glorious suburbs of the City, and now set eyes on her present desolation, could have helped sighing and groaning at so terrible a change; for every trace of beauty had been blotted out by war, and nobody who had known it in the past and came upon it suddenly would have recognized the place: when he was already there he would still have been looking for the City.
It also had been prophesied that Jerusalem would be destroyed by fire in the following passages.
” Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations. Thus says the Lord GOD to Jerusalem … Therefore, harlot, hear the word of the LORD! … I will inflict on you the sentence of adulteresses and murderesses; I will wreak fury and jealousy upon you. … 41 They shall burn your apartments with fire and inflict punishments on you while many women look on. Thus I will put an end to your harlotry, and you shall never again give payment.” (Ezekiel 16: 2-3, 35, 38, 41)
” Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother, who even as young girls played the harlot in Egypt. … (As for their names: Samaria is Oholah, and Jerusalem is Oholibah.) … Therefore, Oholibah, thus says the Lord GOD: …They shall take away your sons and daughters, and what is left of you shall be devoured by fire. And indeed they did come to her as men come to a harlot. Thus they came to Oholah and Oholibah, the lewd women. But just men shall punish them with the sentence meted out to adulteresses and murderesses, for they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands.… The assembly shall stone them and hack them to pieces with their swords. They shall slay their sons and daughters, and burn their houses with fire.” (Ezekiel 23: 2-4, 17-19, 22-25, 44-47 )
The burning of Jerusalem by fire also had theological significance. The City of Jerusalem is often referred to as a daughter.
” … They hiss and wag their heads over daughter Jerusalem: ‘Is this the all-beautiful city, the joy of the whole earth?’ …The LORD has done as he decreed: he has fulfilled the threat He set forth from days of old; he has destroyed and had no pity, …Cry out to the Lord; moan, O daughter Zion!” (Lamentations 2:15-18 )
Unfaithfulness to God is frequently compared to sexual immorality. The penalty for fornication by the daughter of the priest called for a special punishment. It was to be burned to death.
“A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.” (Leviticus 21:9 )
So, when Jerusalem was offered the grace to accept Christ, but instead rejected Him, she is referred to as the “Whore of Babylon” who is subsequently burnt to death.
Blessing Brothers
Father Son and Holy Spirit

First let me say that you make a good point and I could see how one could become decieved.
As far as Jerusalem goes in the “Old Testament” she played the harlot. But Revelations as you say is yet future. If Jerusalem were the harlot in Revelation I hardly think that it would be a mystery, simply by reading the scriptures you quoted.
Thayer Definition:
Babylon= confusion
1) a very large and famous city, the residence of the Babylonian kings, situated on both banks of the Euphrates. Cyrus had formerly captured it, but Darius Hystaspis threw down its gates and walls, and Xerxes destroyed the temple of Belis. At length the city was reduced to almost solitude, the population having been drawn off by the neighbouring Seleucia, built on the Tigris by Seleucus Nicanor.
2) of the territory of Babylonia
3) allegorically, of Rome as the most corrupt seat of idolatry and the enemy of Christianity

Col 2:8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

The Catholic priests, bishops, cardenials and “His MOST Holy Father” also wears purple and scarlet.
I'm not fimiliar with the Jewish rituals but I know that the Catholic church Does use a golden cup to drink wine that they claim to be blood. Perhaps like the one the harlot is holding.
If you really want want the truth just look at the fruits of the Catholic church (Matt. 7:20). The Idolatry with the statues and if it weren't wrong why did she remove the statues.
Praying to Mary “the Queen of Heaven” to ask Jesus to ask the Father to answer your prayer.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

The Pope is Not Needed!

Heb 4:14 Having then a great high priest, who hath passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore draw near with boldness unto the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace to help us in time of need.
For centries the Catholic church refused people to read the bible “saying that the layman would never understand”. For centries the priest drank the wine/blood and didn't offer any to her children. The blood for the forgivness of sin was not offered to her children (DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT!)
Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.
But NOW after of centeries of forbidding forgiveness for their sins she decided to share the ” ' blood' of forgiveness ” with her children.
How mysterious could one get to say “the Mass” in a dead language. Sounds like ” 'Mystery' Babyl
on” to me.

The antichrist

It was the Jews that rejected Jesus Christ was the messiah. Now, has any Pope ever denied that Christ has come in the flesh? Ever?

No they dId far worse they crucify the Lord everyday. They play the harlot by pretending to be married to Christ when they were mixed with worldly governments.
Col 2:8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ:
They have been womanizers. They burned people at a stake because the saints would not worship on the first day of the week. Your faith rejects marriage. But protects those who have sudced little boys. No they don't deny Christ they put Him to open shame!
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Ti 4:2 through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by them that believe and know the truth.
Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Aren't these the colors of the Catholic church? Isn't the Catholic church the richest church of the christian faith?
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. How is Jerusalem a mother of harlots? How many daughters (denominations) does the Jewish faith have? All of protestantism come from the Catholic church.

http://www.christian-faith.net/RK/Vatican/Vatican.htm
This matterial can be found at the address above.

Cardinal Edward Cassidy, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, also participated in the unprecedented event at the Vatican, during which Pope John Paul II asked for forgiveness for the various persecution sins committed by Roman Catholics over the last two millennium. Cardinal Cassidy and other prominent Cardinals wore both prophesied colors of scarlet and purple!

Below are photos from the October 31st, 1999 signing of the Joint Declaration on Justification by Faith between the Roman Catholic and Lutheran World Federation (LWF) Churches in Augsburg Germany. The Roman Catholics were boldly wearing the prophesied colors of scarlet and purple. There is you purple and scarlot .
The Persecuting Church
The woman of Revelation 17 is drunk with the blood of Christian martyrs:

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

The Roman Catholic Church during the “dark ages” is responsible for the persecution deaths of uncounted thousands of Christians who dared to read the Bible, translate the Bible or preach from the Bible or denied the apostate Catholic doctrines or dogma. That the Roman Catholic church felt compelled to ask for forgiveness for her persecution sins of the past on March 12th, 2000, only serves to further confirm she is the apostate persecuting mother church responsible for the blood of the saints spoken of here in Revelation!
That the papacy, the Bishop of Rome, attempts to rule the world from Rome hardly seems to call for any documentation, but we will let a recent pope be heard on this issue:

67. … the hand of God, who guides the course of history, has set down the Chair of His Vicar on earth, in this city of Rome which, from being the capital of the wonderful Roman Empire, was made by Him the capital of the whole world, because He made it the seat of a sovereignty which, since it extends beyond the confines of nations and states, embraces within itself all the peoples of the whole world. The very origin and divine nature of this sovereignty demands, the inviolable rights of conscience of millions of the faithful of the whole world demand that this sacred sovereignty must not be, neither must it ever appear to be, subject to any human authority or law whatsoever, even though that law be one which proclaims certain guaranties for the liberty of the Roman Pontiff.
Source: Pope Pius XI, Encyclical Letter UBI ARCANO DEI CONSILIO (On the Peace of Christ in the Kingdom of Christ), December 23, 1922.

Note the remarkable wording used by Pius XI. He claims sovereignty over all the people of the world from his “seat” in the city of Rome!

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Sounds like the crusades. Wasn't it the catholic church that burned saints on a stake because they still observed the Sabbath? Did the catholic church change the seventh day Sabbath for the first day…Dan 7:25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.
Who calls himself “The Most HOLY Father”. I call God my Father. The Catholic church says that the father is the “MOST” Holy father the Pope. Is this not blaspheme.

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
The Catholic church has many peoples in her “countries” that speak different languages. Wasn't the Catholic church head over the Roman empire, and wasn't the emperors over many countries? Wasn't it Rome who “fed” the christians to the lions? Nonetheless the church grew!!!

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. The Catholic church is considered a nation or Kingdom. The Pope will declare the antichrist to be Christ
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that GREAT CITY, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The Pope and the beast (revised Roman empire) will rule over the known world just as in the past. When has the Jews ruled over the kings of the earth.

Where is the Great City?

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is c
alled Sodom and Egypt, WHERE ALSO OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED.
We know Jesus was differently NOT crucified in Rome, it was Jerusalem.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified You quote the sctipture wrong its “their Lord” not OUR Lord. Their Lord could mean the Pope. Isn't the Pope your Vicar of Christ. Christ in the flesh!
Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her utterly with fire.
Rev 17:18 And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Given the Catholic church's history with the emperors of Rome and her political clout; could you see her repeating history?

How about all the “jewels” and “golden cup” and “scarlet” and “purple”
I don't know but I was told that the Catholic church was here in the states showing off all it's fine gold and jewelry. I believe I heard it on the local news. Not long ago they brought some bones of some saint for people to, I don't know?; “Worship”? A Catholic at work stood in line for hours so he colud see. It's really not funny!
Compare Revelation with the following, Her clothing “the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold and precious stones and pearls” and The holy vestments for Aaron and his sons. I was confirmed Catholic I might be wrong but I remember purple and scarlot on a priest or bishop. It has to do with what “holy day” and the rank of the priest. Is that correct?
Exo 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. Again I don't know if the Jews are still doing that . But I know that a Catholic priest has an array of costumes.
Exo 28:4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exo 28:5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.
Exo 28:6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.
Exo 28:7 It shall have the two shoulderpieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.
Exo 28:8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
Please read the whole of Exodus 28.
The Whore in other words wore the robes and diadem of the JEWISH HIGH PRIEST. AND the Jerusalem Temple is undoubtedly what Revelation is referring to, and Flavius Josephus (who?) left us writings that tell us what the Jerusalem Temple looked like at the time of its destruction by pagan Rome in A.D. 70. Here are a few tidbits: Doesn't the Catholic church have “uniforms” they ware just as the priest in the Old Testament?
Mar 12:38 And in his teaching he said, Beware of the scribes, who desire to walk in long robes, and to have salutations in the marketplaces,

Mat 6:7 And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat 6:8 Be not therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
The rosery! Talk about repetitious words.
Who did our Lord say to pray to? Was it any of the saints? Was it Mary “the oueen of heaven”. The Mary that remained virigin after Jesus' birth? Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,
When I was Catholic I don't ever remember praying in Jesus' Name. Oh! Wait that's right! The Father ,Son and Holy Ghost. What is the Holy Ghost's name anyway?
It was always hail Mary a bunch of times (five I think) then the Lord's prayer which isn't a prayer at all. But instructions on how to pray.
Confess my sins to a person who I called father who wasn't my earthly father and definitely not my spiritual Father. Then this man would give me a penitence. I was to pray (say a bunch of words over and over) for the forgiveness of my sins. I just couldn't ask for forgiviness and leave the church out of my personal relationship with my heavenly Father through His Son's name.
We are the temple of God, not a buliding!
But your church keeps Jesus locked up in a little “temple” on the alter. It's not funny! And bulidings, well need I say anything. Jesus tore down the temples in three days, yet the harlot and her daughters build hugh very expensive buildings as though God lived there. He doesn't!
The holiest part of the Temple:
“Its front was covered with gold all over… But that gate which was at this end of the first part of the house was, as we have already observed, all over covered with gold, as was its whole wall about it; it had also golden vines above it, from which clusters of grapes hung as tall as a man's height. But then this house… had golden doors of fifty-five cubits altitude, and sixteen in breadth; but before these doors there was a veil of equal largeness with the doors. It was a Babylonian curtain, embroidered with blue, and fine linen, and scarlet, and purple, and of a contexture that was truly wonderful.”

The priests' vestments:
“But that girdle that tied the garment to the breast was embroidered with five rows of various colors, of gold, and purple, and scarlet, as also of fine linen and blue, with which colors we told you before the veils of the temple were embroidered also. The like embroidery was upon the ephod; but the quantity of gold therein was greater. Its figure was that of a stomacher for the breast. There were upon it two golden buttons like small shields, which buttoned the ephod to the garment; in these buttons were enclosed two very large and very excellent sardonyxes, having the names of the tribes of that nation engraved upon them: on the other part there hung twelve stones, three in a row one way, and four in the other; a sardius, a topaz, and an emerald; a carbuncle, a jasper, and a sapphire; an agate, an amethyst, and a ligure; an onyx, a beryl, and a chrysolite; upon every one of which was again engraved one of the forementioned names of the tribes.”
Read Flavius Josephus book 5, click on link below and scroll down to Chapter 5, which is headed a description of the temple. http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-5.htm

What other clues can be ascertained about her? She committed fornications,”having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication…the mother of the fornications and the abominations of the earth.” What did the prophet Hosea say about the nation of Israel?
Hos 2:2 Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her brea
sts;
Hos 2:3 Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst.
Hos 2:4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms.
Hos 2:5 For their mother hath played the harlot: she that conceived them hath done shamefully: for she said, I will go after my lovers, that give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, mine oil and my drink.
Hos 2:6 Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths.
Hos 2:7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.
Hos 2:8 For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal.
Hos 2:9 Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and my wine in the season thereof, and will recover my wool and my flax given to cover her nakedness.
Hos 2:10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand.
But JERUSALEM apostasized and failed to recognise and then killed (with Roman power) the Messiah of prophecy. Revelations tells us what “the woman,” Jerusalem, came to have upon her forehead:
Exo 28:36 And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.
Exo 28:37 And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.
Exo 28:38 And it shall be upon Aaron's FOREHEAD, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his FOREHEAD, that they may be accepted before the LORD.

Rev 17:5 And upon her FOREHEAD was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Let’s now look at the seven Mountains, Rome or Jerusalem?

G3735
ὄρος
oros
Thayer Definition:
1) a mountain
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from an obsolete oro (to rise or “rear”, perhaps akin to G142, compare G3733)
Citing in TDNT: 5:475, 732
According to this definition the word mountain could mean “hill”.
Given ALL the lies, homosexuals, affairs with worldy governments (2Cor. 4:4), the colours of her rediculous costumes (like the Old Testament church, Luke 20:46) first a saint then not a saint. I don't see how it could be anyone else!
Sir please! The Catholic church was head of Rome. The bishop crowned the Emperor Constantine. False religon mixed with the rulers of this world! Who else but the Catholic religion did that and will do it again. The beast is Rome and the Harlot riding the beast (Rome) is the Catholic church. It was the Catholics that brought in all the pagan holidays and decalared them chrisitan. The Catholic church places itself above the Word of God and even says that it does!
The Catholic church played the Whore before with the rulers of this world and will do so again. The Catholic church has daughters the protestant religion.
EVERYTHING CONSIDERED WHO ELSE COULD THE WHORE BE!
THE END

February 24, 2006 at 8:17 pm#41455

OneoftheLordsGenerals

Participant

I haven't read all of what Scripture Seeker said, but it sounds like anti-sematism. I will gather some info and scripture i have been studying in which I do not claim to know who The Great Whore is, more like who is most probably The Great Whore.

February 25, 2006 at 4:45 am#41454

Participant

Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ Feb. 24 2006,20:17)

Hi,

Please show me where I have been anti-sematic, if not why do you accuse me?

Like I have said before I have nothing against the Jews!
I worship one his name is JESUS.

Kenrch I have nearly finished my reply to you. You will see it in the next couple of days.

God Bless

February 28, 2006 at 7:22 pm#41452

OneoftheLordsGenerals

Participant

How can the chosen people of God be the very ones who are the Whore? How can Jesus be the King of Isreal, if she is the whore. Matter of fact she is not,The Great Whore is a Religious Whore. Isreal is the woman in the heavens giving birth to the Child whom the Dragon tries to eat. Two different woman.

March 4, 2006 at 12:11 pm#41451