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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2009,15:35) Hi,
So all men who die outside of the way of Jesus rise in the second resurrection after the millenial kingdom to face the judgement of Mt 25 \ Rev20 in the hope of finding the mercy of God.
NickodemusYou keep saying the second resurrection is after the millennium, and I don't know how many times I have ask you to tell me by what works, if any, will they get their name written into the book of life? Why do you keep avoiding an answer?
It is not up to the mercy of God; did you not at one point repent of your sins? did you not at one point except Jesus as your personal Lord and savior? is it not faith in Jesus that has saved you?
So, by what other way can all those resurrected get their name into the book of life?
Try to be mature and serious for a change, or let someone else answer.Georg
Georg,
Read Mt 25 and you will see it is good works towards the brothers of the Lord Jesus.
Blessed indeed are the mercifulHi Georg,
You say
“So, by what other way can all those resurrected get their name into the book of life?”Mt25
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Nick
You can forget about all those scriptures, unless your telling me these scriptures are wrong.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.So, my question is still unanswered.
Georg
Hi Georg,
The words of Ephesians are to the sons of the resurrection and not to the nations of natural men raised in the second resurrection.The sons of God do not face the white throne judgement as they have already passed from death to life.[jn5]
Nickodemus
WHERE IS THAT WRITTEN?
Why do you keep bringing up the first resurrection? answer the question regarding the second resurrection.Georg
Hi Georg,
God does account actioned faith as righteousness.
Abraham enjoyed that blessing.Mark 9:41
“For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his rewardGeorg asked:
Quote Marty Show me how you would go about proving a rapture?!
Although the word “rapture” is not in the scriptures, this is the word that is commonly used in reference to what is described by the following scriptures:
Quote 1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.Quote 1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?Quote
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the otherQuote Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.This event has not happened yet, and so, what do you mean how do you prove it. The scriptures support that there will be a catching away of the church both of the dead in Christ and those who are alive when the Lord comes for the church. The scriptures are the proof.
Georg asked:
Quote By what works do you think any one could be saved? Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.Salvation is by faith so that it may be by grace not of works that any man should boast. The scripture states that we must be born again. If we have been born again, we will obey the commandments that have come to us from God through the Lord Jesus out of our love for God and for humanity, and so, faith without works is dead.
Quote 1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
I believe that the following scriptures explain those who are saved seemly by good works in Matthew 25:
Quote Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.As we can see, these received whom he sent. Salvation is by faith. No one will be saved through good works. It is not scriptual.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,15:30) Hi 94,
Why does everyman assume the personal right to declare what is literal and what is not?
And so, every thing that is written in the book of Revelation is literal?Love in Christ,
MartyMarty
In my going back and forth with Nick, I may have been not clear of whom I was speaking.
My question, “how will they get their name into the book of life”, I was referring to all those that lived before Christ, or else never heard of him.
As far as the rapture is concerned, let me just post my article on that subject, it is easier then to type everything again.THE RAPTURE
I remember a song I heard long time ago, “Every body wants to go to heaven, but no body wants to die”. I think that is why the idea of a rapture is so appealing. No deaths, just a quick change from this live as a human being, to an angel, spirit being, in the twinkling of an eye. How exiting it is to think we will all fly around like superman. The question is, did God create us for that?
Almost every Sunday, some preacher on TV will say, we are living in the very end times; and Christ will return soon to rapture his church up to heaven. Although most ministers agree and tell you, we are in the end-time, few will give sound scriptural proof of that claim. It all sounds so easy; just come to church, confess Jesus is Lord, and you got it made. Shouldn’t some one ask the question, which church, or which denomination? Or does it matter? What happens after we get to heaven; will all churches then agree on the same doctrine? I have to admit, the idea of a rapture sounds good; after all, who wouldn’t want to go to heaven? And who would want to stay hear on earth when all the trouble starts? I believe this kind of preaching has many people coming to Church. But what exactly is the rapture? The definition is to be carried away with great joy. And who will be raptured? Our Ministers tell us, all who believe in Jesus Christ and are alive when he returns. They will all be changed into spirit beings and go to heaven. But is that true? We should first ask the question: did God create Adam and Eve as physical human beings to change them into spirit beings later? The answer is no. God had already created all the angels, spirit beings; he wanted or needed because they all shouted for joy when he created the world.
Job 38:4 “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth…”
v. 7 “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”
How do we even imagine this rapture? Do we think as spirit beings we will suddenly love our neighbor whom we couldn’t stand on earth? Do we think in heaven we are no longer racist or bias? Will we be no longer greedy or jealous? If we can’t forgive on earth, will we forgive in heaven? Can you honestly say you learned to obey God? The bible tells us Jesus learned obedience through the things he suffered.
Heb. 5:8 “Though he were a son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.”
When you read these next three scriptures, do you thing about what they imply?
Rev. 2:26 “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.”
Ps. 50:5 “Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.”
Ps. 116:15 “Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.”
What in your mind is a saint? Do you have any idea or even think about what the early Christians, saints, had to go through, and endure for their faith, first under the Romans, and then Antichrist? Do you think about how some Christians were impaled and set on fire as live torches for the emperor? Do you think about how some Christians were tied to a post in an arena, and Lions began to eat them alive? Have you ever seen the “tools of torture”, applied by Antichrist on them that would not worship him? And even today, in some parts of this world, Christians have to fear for their lives. Now, having put things a little in perspective, perhaps we can see things a little clearer as to who deserves to be in heaven, if we were going to go there.
Adam was not tested to become a spirit being; he was tested to see if he was worthy to receive eternal life, and so will all of us. To become a spirit being is the reward for obedience to God even unto death.
Rev. 3:21 “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
There are three main scriptures that have people believe in a rapture.
One;
1 Cor. 15:51 “Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed.”
Sleeping is done in the grave. Paul is saying, not all saints will be dead in their graves when Christ returns, and that they too would have to be changed; but he says “shall be” changed not will be, meaning their change will come sometime later; and when it comes it will be instantly.
Two;
v. 52 “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
The last, or the seventh, trumpet will announce Christ’s return. The dead saints will only hear this trumpet sound. No other living human will even know what is taking place. Paul says the dead are raised incorruptible, meaning raised with a spirit body; and again referring to “we”, the living saints, shall be changed, future tense.
Three;
1 Thes. 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
I believe this verse is the most confusing of the three because what it really says is read right over. “We, which are alive and remain”, we will remain in this human flesh body until our death, Paul says; and then shall we be changed. No living human being will be snatched away from whatever he may be doing. No Airplane is going to fall from the sky because the pilot disappeared. Listen what Paul is saying:
1 Cor. 15:36 “Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die.”
The saints are the seed; they cannot be quickened, resurrected, brought back to life, unless they are sowed first, buried; in other words, they have to die first. This is what Jesus is talking about in
Rev. 14:13 “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth; Yea, saith the Spirit that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
Blessed are the dead, dead to this world but alive in Christ.
Col. 3:3 “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God”.
That die from that point on; that point is the return of Christ, because they live and work for the kingdom of Christ; they will rest from all their labors at death, but their works will follow them. The work for the Kingdom of God does not stop with death. Jesus said
John 5:17 “… My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.”
Daniel even gives us the time for this event;
Dan. 12:12 “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”
That is 1,335 days equal years. Waiting is done in the grave; coming to the end of those days means being alive. Rapture is not the right word for this event because nobody is going to disappear with his cloth left behind. As each individual saint dies, from that point on, he will instantly be changed into a spirit being; the body will be left behind, and no human being will know what took place. Now Daniel said that this event, Rev. 14:13, would start taking place after the 1,335 days, years. “These days” started with the reign of Antichrist, AD 565; that meant that these days of waiting ended in A.D 1900, and the time when saints die and are instantly changed started. We should also realize from this that not every body would become a spirit being.
Mat. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Luke 20:35 “But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, (spirit world) and the resurrection from the
dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.”
Jesus is referring to the first resurrection only.
Our human existence is relative very short, compared to angels; they were created to live for all eternity. That does not mean, however, that they are sexless. We read in fact that some of them did marry woman and had children, (Gen. 6:2 and 4). Without our ability to procreate, our species would have died out long ago. But this is how God had planed it for us. Procreation is for our nature, flesh nature, only. Now let me show you another scripture that sheds more light on this subject; that has either been overlooked or ignored;
1 Thes. 4:16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”
This should make it clear that the saints are not going up, but instead Christ is coming down to this earth, for at least two reasons. One, this is where the saints are waiting in their graves. Two, this is where Christ will reign with the saints for a thousand years.
Rev. 5:10 “And hast made us unto our God kings and priest; and we shall reign on the earth.”
Also, in 1 Thes. 4:17 we read that those which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Why “clouds”? Clouds hide things, for example:
Acts 1:9 “And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.”
“To meet the Lord in the air”, why does that make us assume it means way up there. Well, clouds are way up there in the air. The meaning is the same; you can’t see what is behind a cloud, and you can’t see air. Jesus tried to explain that to Nicodemus.
John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
v. 8 “The wind bloweth were it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth; so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
Born of the spirit meaning resurrected with a spirit body. We humans are born of the flesh; we can’t see the wind; we can’t see the air, and we can’t see a spirit being because they are like the air. The meaning of meeting Christ in the air is meeting him in the spirit world. It does not mean we will all be zoomed up. We should also understand that no human being will ever see Jesus with their eyes, and hear is why:
Rev. 1:16 “And he had in his right hand seven stars; and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword; and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.”
When we read that every eye will see him, we should know what is meant by this is with the eye of understanding. In a conversation, have you ever said, “Oh I see?” Jesus even told us.
John 14:19 “Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more…”
What do we think he meant? We, who will live on this earth in our human flesh body, are the world. We all know what would happen if we were to look at the sun on a bright, sunny day? Paul saw Jesus for just a moment, and it blinded him.
Acts 9:17 “And Anani’as went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou cameth, has sent me, that thou mighteth receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Gost.”
As far as the changing of the saints is concerned, the Bible does not say how long this event will go on; but we can be sure of this: the door to the wedding feast will not be shut until the last invited guest has arrived.
Rev. 3:7 “… these things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that has the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”
No, we won’t see Christ returning or sitting on his throne; but we will see the effects of his reign, especially when Satan is put away.
Rev. 20:2 “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.”
It is during this thousand-year reign that all of us will learn how to love God and how to love our neighbor; the reward for that will be eternal life.
And who would want to challenge those that had to endure the reign of torture and even death of Antichrist, for the honor to sit with Christ in his throne?
Could anyone be so vain and say, eternal life is not good enough?Georg
Hi Georg,
But of course the nations will not be resurrected to face judgement till the 1000 year reign is ending.
Then Jesus, the son of man, who has been ruling from Jerusalem with his brothers, will judge mankind.The judgement is all laid out in mt 25 and is of mercy according to their mercy shown when alive to Christ[his Body]
Hi Georg,
You say
“Born of the spirit meaning resurrected with a spirit body. We humans are born of the flesh; we can’t see the wind; we can’t see the air, and we can’t see a spirit being because they are like the air. The meaning of meeting Christ in the air is meeting him in the spirit world. “
You put great faith in your opinions.Hi Georg:
You ask pertaining to those prior to the ministry of Jesus :
Quote In my going back and forth with Nick, I may have been not clear of whom I was speaking.
My question, “how will they get their name into the book of life”, I was referring to all those that lived before Christ, or else never heard of him.Jesus is the proptiation for the sins of those who were obeying God prior to his ministry as well as for those who come to God through him in the NT era. Noah preached as the ark was being prepared in the era before the flood. Eight people, Noah and his family were saved from destruction. Under the law of Moses those who were obeying God will be saved. Some gentiles will be saved under the Law of Moses, Ruth for example.
These were obeying God, but not without making mistakes. Salvation is by faith for all who will be saved not of works. The blood of Jesus washes away their sins also, and they are part of the body of Christ that will be resurrected in what is commonly called the rapture.
My understanding is that those in the OT era from the beginning until Jesus who were not saved have already been judged, and are dead. The will not be resurrected to incur further judgment in the second resurrection.
As for those who never heard of Jesus in the NT era, I don't know if there is such people who haven't heard. I do know that the scripture states the the gospel will be preached in every nation and then the end will come.
I also know that God is a just God, and if there are those who did not hear, His judgment will be just.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi 94,
Only one is known to have been judged-satan-Jn16.
Death as a state is described in Lk16
Mercy triumphs over judgementQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2009,21:10) Hi 94,
Only one is known to have been judged-satan-Jn16.
Death as a state is described in Lk16
Mercy triumphs over judgement
Please elaborate on all of your beliefs relative to this.Thanks,
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 05 2009,09:50) Hi 94,
What do you mean?
If you are going to disagree with what I have stated then elaborate on what you believe to be the truth.Thanks,
Love in Christ,
Marty
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