- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (thethinker @ May 05 2009,07:54) Kejonn said to t8: Quote And what is the root cause? The fall of man? Whenever someone asks “why” Christians typically answer with “God made perfection, humans ruined it”. That is why I said your response was full of tired worn-out dogma. kj,
I personally go against the grain. I reject the idea that God created everything “perfect.” Paul said that God created man mortal which suggests that he was not created perfect. The threat of death was meaningless if man was created perfect. He created the serpent to be a crafty and deceitful creature. So there was at least one creature other than man that was not “perfect.” When God created man he put him on probation and the purpose of the serpent was to test him. This also suggests that God did not create man perfect. And he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil which was poison to man's soul. It is quite impossible from the Genesis narrative to conclude that God created a perfect world.If Adam had passed the test then maybe it would have become a perfect world. It was not God's purpose to create a perfect world.
Though you will likely disagree with me I am NOT offering you “tired, worn out dogma.”
thinker
thinker One thing sticks out which t8 did not address. You say:” He created the serpent to be a crafty and deceitful creature.”
That is not so, He created Lucifer a very beautiful Angel, and put Him in charge of this earth. He became Satan by is own vanity. He wanted to have what God had. God was and is very perfect. He can not look on sin.
Peace and Love IreneIrene said:
Quote thinker One thing sticks out which t8 did not address. You say:” He created the serpent to be a crafty and deceitful creature.”
That is not so, He created Lucifer a very beautiful Angel, and put Him in charge of this earth. He became Satan by is own vanity.Irene,
The name “lucifer” was applied to the king of babylon and not to satan. According to Isaiah 14 the prophecy of Lucifer's fall was a proverb for the fall of Nebuchadnezzar (14:1).There is no statement in scripture that says that satan was created a “beautiful angel.” He was created to be deceitful for the purpose of testing the man and the woman. They failed the test and therefore could not attain the perfect world. God did not create the world perfect as non-believers have correctly observed.
thinker
thinker So the King Babyllon went to Heaven, and fell down to earth like lightning?
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.Luke 10:18 …,” I saw Satan fall like Lightning from heaven.
Then Satan convinced 1/3 of the Angels to come with him.
Rev. 12:4 His tail drew 1/3 of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth……….Irene
Quote (Cindy @ May 18 2009,12:46) thinker So the King Babyllon went to Heaven, and fell down to earth like lightning? Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.Luke 10:18 …,” I saw Satan fall like Lightning from heaven.
Then Satan convinced 1/3 of the Angels to come with him.
Rev. 12:4 His tail drew 1/3 of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth……….Irene
Hi Irene,
The text does NOT say that “lucifer” was spatially in heaven. It says that he said in his heart “I will ascend to heaven.” It was in his hearts attitude to overthrow God. Verse four clearly says that the “proverb” was spoken against the King of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar). A proverb was a prophecy given in figurative speech. And verse 16 says that all would look upon him after he fell and say, “Is this the MAN who destroyed cities.” Note that “lucifer” is a MAN.The same figure was used against Capernaum
Quote And you, Capernaum, who are exalted TO HEAVEN, will be brought down to Hades (Matt. 11:13) Jesus was figuratively prophecying the demise of the leaders of Israel. They were never spatially in heaven.
Satan was created deceitful for the express purpose of testing the man and the woman. He was never created holy or good and there is no such Scripture which supports this myth.
thinker
thinker You get to be kidding me, God created Satan amd Lucifer as a man? I do not think that God ever created anything that was not perfect. Why do you think we have a Mediator to go to the throne of God, and ask for forgiveness of our Sins. Lets see do you believe we do sin?
You better read Isaiah 14 : 13 again. When it says that Satan fell from Heaven like Lightning, that does not mean, that he was not in heaven.
Last time thinker you are interpreting Scripture they way you like and never learn. One day you will have to. I go by Scriptures and it is not my interpretation of it. That's all thinker. Ask God to open your mind, it is very dangerous to believe like you do.
Peace and Love Irene
P.S.Quote (Cindy @ May 19 2009,04:22) thinker You get to be kidding me, God created Satan amd Lucifer as a man? I do not think that God ever created anything that was not perfect. Why do you think we have a Mediator to go to the throne of God, and ask for forgiveness of our Sins. Lets see do you believe we do sin?
You better read Isaiah 14 : 13 again. When it says that Satan fell from Heaven like Lightning, that does not mean, that e was in heaven.
Last time thinker you are interpreting Scripture they way you like and never learn. One day you will have to. I go by Scriptures and it is not my interpretation of it. That's all thinker. Ask God to open your mind, it is very dangerous to believe like you do.
Peace and Love Irene
P.S.
Irene,
Lucifer and satan are not the same. Lucifer was the king of Babylon, a man (Is. 14:4,16).thinker
thinker Nobody except those that are Spirit being are in Heaven. No Human has ever seen God or heard His voice.
John 5:37….You have neither heard His voice or seen His form.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tablets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
That is when he became Satan.
If you pay attention to verse 14 that he was a cherub, which is a high-angel, the Catholic Church calls them Archangel.
No Human King. There were only 3 cherubs, Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer.
Peace and Love Irene*sigh* People still referring to 2000 year old mythology to guide their lives. You'd think that Jehovah would issue as many updates as Microsoft, but such is not the case.
Quote (Cindy @ May 18 2009,12:46) thinker So the King Babyllon went to Heaven, and fell down to earth like lightning? Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.Luke 10:18 …,” I saw Satan fall like Lightning from heaven.
Then Satan convinced 1/3 of the Angels to come with him.
Rev. 12:4 His tail drew 1/3 of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth……….Irene
No, Mrs. the King of Babylon was self-exalted which is why it is said he is fallen from heaven.Check and see how God brings him, Nebuchannezzar, down from that exalted position.
Quote Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty? Dan 4:31 While the word [was] in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, [saying], O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.
Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling [shall be] with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Dan 4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' [feathers], and his nails like birds' [claws].
Dan 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation:
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (kejonn @ May 20 2009,13:19) *sigh* People still referring to 2000 year old mythology to guide their lives. You'd think that Jehovah would issue as many updates as Microsoft, but such is not the case.
If god was in charge of Microsoft they would have the capacity to fatally zap all PCs world-wide in the event of a software failure.That's the power of Yahweh 1.1 for you.
Stuart
Quote (thethinker @ April 05 2009,11:07) thinker said: Quote Guy's surgery went well and he is in good spirits. His pain is at a minimum because he had no circulation in the foot to begin with. And I was happy to hear from his wife that the surgeons removed only his toes. But Guy told me they said that they would be removing his foot to the ankles. Anyway, I am glad for him and I am more inclined now to allow him to return to work after he is fully recovered. But I will still require a doctor's release note.
Seeking replied:
Quote As we all knew, God answers prayer! But Stu objected to Seeking saying:
Quote No, the surgeons cut off his toes. They saved a man from serious illness caused by your god's 'design' that gave him a pancreas not up to the job. Then Thinker said:
Quote Stu,
You will receive a pm from me inviting you to come here to discuss this. And I hope the administrators will allow you to express all your feelings and opinions. It would give me great joy to engage with you about Seeking's 'god' which is also my 'god'.But for starters let me say this: Christians make false statements concerning God's Person and works. They say that God created everything “perfect.” Then they talk out of the other side of their mouths and say that all the problems in the world are due to sin. But if God had created man “perfect” then man would not have sinned. It's that simple! So I understand your objections and I am prepared to answer.
God did not want to create man perfect. He wanted to create man mortal. He wanted to create pancreas's that were not “up to the job.” But note what the apostle Paul said. He said that the corruptible body must come first:
Quote However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural [corruptible], and afterwards the spiritual (I Corinthians 15:46) So man would have eventually died anyway whether he sinned or not. That's the way God wanted it for He had a GREATER PURPOSE in mind. But you will read replies to what I say from people like Nick who don't care about the facts. But I invite you to discuss this with me for I care only about facts.
thinker
And they're off!
thinker; Just for thought maybe God is perfect, created a human form like an earth suit, breathed his Spirit/life into the human and it became a living soul. Then maybe God had created a perfect earth for man to be fruitful and multiply. Now we could argue all day as to why the decision to partake of knowledge of evil or death but by accepting that knowledge man began to fall away from God in his mind. God didn't go anywhere, man felt guilt,pain,fear etc.for the first time. NO SIN was committed. God did not use the word sin in the Garden. This choice by man for two Gods, one good and one evil was not a sin! In the forth chap.Gen Adam used the word sin to his son's…”if you do not well, sin is at the door.”
Adam created the idea of sin associated with doing good or bad. God did not use the word sin! God had given the Earth to mankind. If Adam created sin, and began mans fall away from God by believing in doing this or doing that.From that point man was lost (in his mind)in sin. Separation from God by works. We fell further and further from God in our minds, God never left us. We needed a saviour. We needed the Truth. Just for thought. With Love, TKThanks TK.
It is also written that through one man, sin entered the world and through one man, righteousness too.
I also think that God put the two trees in the garden to allow for choice. Otherwise Adam and Eve would have been robots with only one choice, and that would be to love and obey God. What is wrong with that one might ask?
Well how can it be true love if you don't have choice? If your only option is to love, is it true love? Or is it a programmed response?
Quote (kejonn @ May 20 2009,13:19) *sigh* People still referring to 2000 year old mythology to guide their lives. You'd think that Jehovah would issue as many updates as Microsoft, but such is not the case.
God does issue updates, but you have to be connected and authenticated. If not, then your defection remains, and corruption will work in you till there is nothing more to corrupt.Quote (t8 @ May 24 2009,22:59) Thanks TK. It is also written that through one man, sin entered the world and through one man, righteousness too.
I also think that God put the two trees in the garden to allow for choice. Otherwise Adam and Eve would have been robots with only one choice, and that would be to love and obey God. What is wrong with that one might ask?
Well how can it be true love if you don't have choice? If your only option is to love, is it true love? Or is it a programmed response?
Your choice is between obsequiousness and eternal punishment. This god of yours creates robots by 'his' violent threats. Just like in North Korea, where the people have the “choice” to try and leave.Stuart
Quote (t8 @ May 24 2009,05:59) Thanks TK. It is also written that…
The National Enquirer is written. Your point is?Stu said:
Quote Your choice is between obsequiousness and eternal punishment. This god of yours creates robots by 'his' violent threats. Stu,
You're correct and many Christians are just dishonest about it. Paul said that God is the potter and man is the clay and God has the right to form a vessel from a lump of clay and then destroy it if he so chooses.People like t8 have a romanticized view of God. They will not accept that God does NOT love everybody. And people like you and kejonn don't like the idea that God may do to man as He pleases. Paul said that you have no right to reply against God. As for me I am fine with God's ways. Job said, “Though he slay me yet will I trust Him”.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 25 2009,11:20) Stu said: Quote Your choice is between obsequiousness and eternal punishment. This god of yours creates robots by 'his' violent threats. Stu,
You're correct and many Christians are just dishonest about it. Paul said that God is the potter and man is the clay and God has the right to form a vessel from a lump of clay and then destroy it if he so chooses.People like t8 have a romanticized view of God. They will not accept that God does NOT love everybody. And people like you and kejonn don't like the idea that God may do to man as He pleases. Paul said that you have no right to reply against God. As for me I am fine with God's ways. Job said, “Though he slay me yet will I trust Him”.
thinker
I am very pleased to see your honesty here.In any other case of such a significant source of threats of violence I would have thought you might describe such a force as a common enemy. Yet you do not oppose this malevolent, arbitrary god that you worship. Can you explain why?
The good news is that it is all a fantasy story, albeit an unpleasant fiction to share with young children or those with human compassion.
Stuart
Stu said:
Quote Yet you do not oppose this malevolent, arbitrary god that you worship. Can you explain why? Stu,
You wouldn't understand.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 26 2009,00:00) Stu said: Quote Yet you do not oppose this malevolent, arbitrary god that you worship. Can you explain why? Stu,
You wouldn't understand.thinker
Isn't that what alien abductees say?I am not thick, and yet you cannot explain it for my comprehension. That is the kind of thing I would keep to myself were it my delusion.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 26 2009,07:47) Quote (thethinker @ May 26 2009,00:00) Stu said: Quote Yet you do not oppose this malevolent, arbitrary god that you worship. Can you explain why? Stu,
You wouldn't understand.thinker
Isn't that what alien abductees say?I am not thick, and yet you cannot explain it for my comprehension. That is the kind of thing I would keep to myself were it my delusion.
Stuart
Stu,
You can't comprehend it. Suffice it to say that I know that God will not disappoint me. “He that believes in Him will not be disappointed”. You trust in man who disappoints and even betrays everyday. You're the one who belongs in the “hot seat.” You can't even explain why you trust the words of man. There is no good reason to trust in man.thinker
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
