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Hi thethinker:
You say:
Quote However, we are in agreement that sin is not the first cause. God is the first cause for man's corruptibility. So it's not a matter of God's supposed incompotency. It is a matter of PURPOSE. Please elaborate on this. I am not so sure that I agree with this statement.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ April 08 2009,12:51) Hi thethinker: You say:
Quote However, we are in agreement that sin is not the first cause. God is the first cause for man's corruptibility. So it's not a matter of God's supposed incompotency. It is a matter of PURPOSE. Please elaborate on this. I am not so sure that I agree with this statement.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,
I do not believe that sin is the first cause of corruptibility and death. God created man mortal otherwise the threat of death for disobedience was meaningless. Therefore, God is the first cause.When Paul said that death entered the world through sin he was talking about condemnation.
Quote As through one man sin entered the world and death [condemnation] through sin thinker
kejonn said;
Quote And what is the root cause? The fall of man? Whenever someone asks “why” Christians typically answer with “God made perfection, humans ruined it”. That is why I said your response was full of tired worn-out dogma. That is what you said, basically. God created a perfect world, gave man free will, and man used his free will to mess things up. Its the only explanation Christians have, but it always gets back to why an omniscient god would create something he knew would fail? kj,
Who told you that God created everything perfect and that man messed it up is the ONLY explanation that Christians have? Your statement betrays that you have not been around and that your exposure to Christian thought is quite limited.God did NOT create everything perfect. He created everything FOR Himself. Ponder this.
thinker
God gave man free will. The ability to choose God means that you have the ability to choose NOT God, which is sin. Free will means that we are not a race of robots, and that true love can exist rather than a programed response. But free will also comes with risk. The risk is that you can decide to reject God.
Even though man and some angels have chosen this, it is still better than not having a choice, and ultimately God will take for himself those who love him, and for those that reject him, they will be rejected. This means that as God is life, they will not inherit eternal life. So his purpose is fulfilled in the end.
This is how it is, and just because God allowed for the possibility of sin, it doesn't mean that he forced us to sin.
The conclusion is that we are the masters of our own destiny, in that we can have life or reject it. If we do not inherit eternal life, it is because we chose to reject God.
t8
Quote God gave man free will. The ability to choose God means that you have the ability to choose NOT God, which is sin.
But once you have chosen ‘not god’ you are no longer a sinner! At the point where god stops to exist, there is no longer a problem.Quote Free will means that we are not a race of robots, and that true love can exist rather than a programed response. But free will also comes with risk. The risk is that you can decide to reject God.
Once god is rejected, the nonsense concept of free will is also rejected.Quote Even though man and some angels have chosen this, it is still better than not having a choice, and ultimately God will take for himself those who love him, and for those that reject him, they will be rejected. This means that as God is life, they will not inherit eternal life. So his purpose is fulfilled in the end.
How is ‘his’ purpose filled if ‘he’ wants everyone to be saved? People have free will, reject god and in the process spoil god’s plan. Not very omnipotent! ‘He’ can want all ‘he’ wants but people with free will are going to exercise it against ‘his’ will. Maybe god just doesn’t care about his own goals. I don’t care about them.Quote This is how it is, and just because God allowed for the possibility of sin, it doesn't mean that he forced us to sin.
‘He’ is still responsible for the entire universe, there is no getting out of it.Quote The conclusion is that we are the masters of our own destiny, in that we can have life or reject it. If we do not inherit eternal life, it is because we chose to reject God.
I am glad to reject this anti-human nonsense. It is clear that a christian who believes this in practice has no free will and is indeed a robot. He is forced to believe in god and is a prisoner of his own ideology.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 08 2009,04:31) To blame disease on the religious concept of sin, no matter whose, is what you might call evil, and I would call grossly injust.
That is like blaming a computer virus on the operating system. The OS allows hooks and API's for programs to work. Evil takes advantage of this good feature and allows malicious programs to work too.God made everything and it was good. When things went bad, it was the choice of some. Yes God gave choice, but he didn't make us choose evil.
Obviously evil effects us all. If an evil person came to your town with a gun and shot 5 people at random, that is an example of good people suffering needlessly because of evil.
Obviously, God purposed for man to create and do good and as such this would be passed onto successive generations. Think of it like an inheritance. If evil decides to abuse that, or sin is there, then inheritance doesn't stop working because it is a principle.
And yes that is one of the worse things about evil. It can harm good people.
Most disease is caused my microorganisms. Clearly it is wrong to say that they are the fault of human sin if they were specifically created by god. What kind of a game is this god playing?
As I say, once you have decided to reject gods, this nonsense does not apply. It is a curmudgeonly verdict by on your fellow christians to blame them for the diseases of humans. It is also a really nasty lie.
Stuart
…that should be 'by' not 'my'…
I guess it was a mistake caused by a christian sinning somewhere.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 19 2009,21:07) But once you have chosen ‘not god’ you are no longer a sinner! At the point where god stops to exist, there is no longer a problem.
In your dreams. You wish.Quote (Stu @ April 20 2009,16:24) Most disease is caused my microorganisms. Clearly it is wrong to say that they are the fault of human sin if they were specifically created by god. What kind of a game is this god playing? As I say, once you have decided to reject gods, this nonsense does not apply. It is a curmudgeonly verdict by on your fellow christians to blame them for the diseases of humans. It is also a really nasty lie.
Stuart
Stu if God destroyed Sodom and he plagued Egypt because of sin, surely he can do it by using the very nature he created. God isn't magic Stu. He is real. He uses real things to bring judgement.t8
You say 'if' then you say 'real'. Can you make up your mind? You clearly have no free will if you are unable to critique your god's motives for creating pathogenic microorganisms when you claim it is human sin that causes disease. Did that sin cause diseases in other species too? What a just god you worship.
It remains true that every person who deconverts from Abrahamic religion ceases to be a sinner by definition. With the added advantage of no longer having to believe silly things, and not needing anyone to be a human sacrifice for them, atheism would appear to be a much better kind of salvation. Not that humans are inherently in any need of such a thing.
Stuart
Kejonn said to t8:
Quote And what is the root cause? The fall of man? Whenever someone asks “why” Christians typically answer with “God made perfection, humans ruined it”. That is why I said your response was full of tired worn-out dogma. kj,
I personally go against the grain. I reject the idea that God created everything “perfect.” Paul said that God created man mortal which suggests that he was not created perfect. The threat of death was meaningless if man was created perfect. He created the serpent to be a crafty and deceitful creature. So there was at least one creature other than man that was not “perfect.” When God created man he put him on probation and the purpose of the serpent was to test him. This also suggests that God did not create man perfect. And he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil which was poison to man's soul. It is quite impossible from the Genesis narrative to conclude that God created a perfect world.If Adam had passed the test then maybe it would have become a perfect world. It was not God's purpose to create a perfect world.
Though you will likely disagree with me I am NOT offering you “tired, worn out dogma.”
thinker
Quote (t8 @ April 20 2009,22:07) Quote (Stu @ April 19 2009,21:07) But once you have chosen ‘not god’ you are no longer a sinner! At the point where god stops to exist, there is no longer a problem.
In your dreams. You wish.
That is quite ironic coming from a follower of Paul!Stuart
If you wish something to be true, then that maybe ironic in that fantasy is what you are supposedly against, yet you demonstrate your own fantasies. So yes there is irony.
To thethinker.
When God creates it is good. But he takes a risk by giving us choice. The two trees demonstrates this clearly.
He gives us choice so that we will not be a race of robots and that our love is not a programmed response.
Once choice is given and we choose him, then love is perfected.
There is risk with choice, but it is the only way to enjoy true love between us and God and even though man has chosen to go his way and not the way of God, it is still true that choice is here because we can still choose him. This was made possible by the supreme sacrifice.
Quote (thethinker @ April 18 2009,21:04) Quote (942767 @ April 08 2009,12:51) Hi thethinker: You say:
Quote However, we are in agreement that sin is not the first cause. God is the first cause for man's corruptibility. So it's not a matter of God's supposed incompotency. It is a matter of PURPOSE. Please elaborate on this. I am not so sure that I agree with this statement.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,
I do not believe that sin is the first cause of corruptibility and death. God created man mortal otherwise the threat of death for disobedience was meaningless. Therefore, God is the first cause.When Paul said that death entered the world through sin he was talking about condemnation.
Quote As through one man sin entered the world and death [condemnation] through sin thinker
Hi thethinker:God did not create man mortal. The cause of death was sin. God created man with a “free will” and gave told them of the consequence for disobedience. They chose to disobey. That God has forseen all of this that is true.
Death does not mean condemnation. It means spiritual separation from God. The body will decay because of sin.
Love in Christ,
MartyIs there a more arcane, brutal and anti-human philosophy in all of religious mythology that that one?
Who knows, I could have been brought up worshipping juju or shiva or baal. One thing's for sure, I'm glad not to be suffering under the delusion of this Judeo-christian god! Is there a better reason not to be a christian?
Just as well it is all a fantasy story eh!
Stuart
Quote (942767 @ May 06 2009,22:14) Hi thethinker: God did not create man mortal. The cause of death was sin. God created man with a “free will” and gave told them of the consequence for disobedience. They chose to disobey. That God has forseen all of this that is true.
Death does not mean condemnation. It means spiritual separation from God. The body will decay because of sin.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Not that I believe it but…biblically speaking, you are wrong 90120. Man was always mortal.Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever–”
As you can see, it was the “tree of life” that gave immortality. So this “death” you speak of was being cut off from the tree of life.
You are lead by Christian dogma, not the bible.
942767 said:
Quote God did not create man mortal. The cause of death was sin. God created man with a “free will” and gave told them of the consequence for disobedience. They chose to disobey. That God has forseen all of this that is true. Death does not mean condemnation. It means spiritual separation from God. The body will decay because of sin.
Marty, Please review 1 corinthians 15 where Paul said that man was created a “living soul”. Paul connects this expression to mortality. Review Romans 5 also where “death” is equated with condemnation. Your view that the body decays because of sin is erroneous. God put the tree of life in the midst of the garden so that man would eat of it and would not die. This suggests that man was created mortal.
Death means condemnation.
thinker
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