The Way

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2009,01:07)

I made an error and did not include all my last quote in the quote box. It actually ends after the word Amen and then comes by final comment. I am sorry if this causes any confusion.

Hi Kerwin,
You can ask for editing rights and fix this type of thing. Go to the help desk and ask t8 for editing rights. After he gives them to you, you will find an edit button at the top right side of your post, click on that and make your changes then submit your modified post by clicking on the button at the bottom.

I was wondering if you are going to respond to my last question of you regarding Hebrews 1? I will bump it up for you.

March 20, 2009 at 12:08 pm#125276

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 19 2009,11:47)

Hi Marty and Kerwin,

Something that I do not understand is that you both want to teach what is true but neither of you acknowledges the Son of God as the God that the Father speaks of in this passage below in Hebrews. This passage acknowledges that the “God” that the Father is referring to (His Son), has a God, the Father Himself.

Not only that but the “God” that the Father is referring to is also the Lord who laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning and that the heavens are the work of the Son's hands. Remember “laid the foundation” is written in the active voice meaning the subject (the Son) actually did the action. It seems to me that you both flat out deny the testimony of the Father regarding His Son here. Isn't believing God's testimony concerning His Son paramount?

Heb 1:8-11

8 But of the Son He says,

“YOUR THRONE, O GOD , IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10 And,

“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
NASU

1 John 5:10
…the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
NASU

Are you saved if you just believe part of the testimony that God has given regarding His Son and not all of the testimony He has given?

We are accountable to what God has given us and He has given us the book of Hebrews and the testimony of His Son who is called “God” who was alive in the beginning of creation or He could not have actively laid the foundation. If you do not believe that then you do not believe that part of the testimony that the Father has regarding His Son.

The Father clearly calls His Son “God” and He (the Father) is God of the Son. They are not equal which you understand yet both are called “God.” Why can you not acknowledge this?

Please do not read this as me condemming you. I am concerned and genuinely ask for you welfare. I do care about you as well as all of us here participating in the posts as well as those just reading along.

In His love,
LU

For Kerwin

March 20, 2009 at 12:09 pm#125277

Participant

Quote (Cindy @ Mar. 20 2009,07:57)

Peace and Love Irene

Irene,
Good verse, thanks!
Love,
Kathi

March 20, 2009 at 12:29 pm#125279

Cindy

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 21 2009,00:09)

Quote (Cindy @ Mar. 20 2009,07:57)

Peace and Love Irene

Irene,
Good verse, thanks!
Love,
Kathi

Hi Kathi Thanks,how are things going?
Love Irene

March 20, 2009 at 3:15 pm#125287

SEEKING

Participant

Quote (Cindy @ Mar. 20 2009,04:57)

Peace and Love Irene

uk 17:10 So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'”

Blessings in your walk with the Lord,

Seeking

March 20, 2009 at 6:15 pm#125291

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 20 2009,19:04)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2009,01:07)

I made an error and did not include all my last quote in the quote box. It actually ends after the word Amen and then comes by final comment. I am sorry if this causes any confusion.

I was wondering if you are going to respond to my last question of you regarding Hebrews 1? I will bump it up for you.

Thank you for the advice.

March 20, 2009 at 7:47 pm#125301

Participant

Lightenup wrote:

Quote

Something that I do not understand is that you both want to teach what is true but neither of you acknowledges the Son of God as the God that the Father speaks of in this passage below in Hebrews.

I dislike getting into debates about interpretations of words since words in there nature tend to be fairly open to interpretation and the symbolic language uses by certain writers of scripture is even more open to interpretation than non-symbolic language. They probably used it for the same reason that Jesus used parables and that is :

Luke 10:21(NIV) reads:

Quote

At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

God exists and reveals the truth to those who sincerely seek him and though they may stumble they will win free on that day.

Now despite what I said I will share what I believe regarding the scriptures you ask about. Hebrews 1:8-11 is actually a quote of Psalms 45:6-7 which reads:

Psalms 45:5-7(NIV) reads:

Quote

Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts of the king's enemies;
       let the nations fall beneath your feet.
Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
       a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
       therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
       by anointing you with the oil of joy.

And is from a part of a wedding song that is addressed to the groom but applies to Jesus as well because he is archetype righteous man. I use the NIV which includes some parts left off as non-important by other versions and the part that is relevant to what my argument is this.

New International Version reads:

Quote

Psalm 45

For the director of music. To the tune of “Lilies.” Of the Sons of Korah. A maskil. A wedding song.

So should we conclude that all righteousness men are “Gods”? There is other scriptures that declares that all righteous men are “gods” and I believe it is the translators that capitalize the word and not necessary capitalized in the regional transcripts. I have not looked at what the Greek word is for “god” in either case but I suspician that it is Elohim which I believe does not really mean God but rather either a member of God’s host, who could be God himself, or a whole or part of God’s Host.

Hebrews 1:10-12 is another case. Unlike the first case this one seems to be a transcription error since it is from the prayer of an afflicted man, Psalms 102, and Jesus being the archetype afflicted man certainly fits that role but the words in question are what the afflicted man is saying to God and not what he is saying about himself.

New International Version reads:

Quote

Psalm 102

A prayer of an afflicted man. When he is faint and pours out his lament before the LORD.

Still Hebrews 1:10-12 is evidence for what you choose to believe if you believe Jesus is God.

Lightenup wrote:

Quote

Are you saved if you just believe part of the testimony that God has given regarding His Son and not all of the testimony He has given?

God is the judge so he determines who is “saved” and who is not and not me. I can tell you what He tells me and you but 1 John 5:10 already does that and for me to say anything else would be a lie. Still I would like to think that some are searching for belief and if this is so then God will not hold it against them that they have not obtained that belief yet. I will attest that that idea is my own and does not come from God though I believe it is consistent with the ways of God. Please do not use my uneducated words to contradict any part of scripture!

Lightenup wrote:

Quote

The Father clearly calls His Son “God” and He (the Father) is God of the Son.

I am not quite sure what your beliefs are in this matter. What do you believe “God” means?

Lightenup wrote:

Quote

Why can you not acknowledge this?

I do acknowledge that Jesus is part of God’s host as are angels, prophets, apostles, God’s other servants, and even God himself. I believe scripture also refers to it as the unity of the Spirit.

March 20, 2009 at 9:40 pm#125312

Participant

Hi LU:

Regarding the following discussion:

Quote

You said that Christ was called God because He loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. I say He was anointed because He loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.

I am basing my statement that he was called God by the Father because he loved righteouness and hated iniquity on the following scriptures:

Quote

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Quote

Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hbr 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

You say:

Quote

He always was God, the God of GOD who became a man, died and won the victory over death and was thus anointed to be the mediator between God and man. We read it differently.

He was never God. There is only “One God”. God has revealed to the church who he is:

[QUOTEMat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Mat 16:14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
][/QUOTE]

Yes, we definitely understand this differently, and yes, we each need to handle the Word of God with care and make sure that we are teaching the truth not adding to His Word or taking away from it.

And so, I am asking God to correct me if I am wrong. How about you do you want to be corrected if you are wrong?

My desire is God's very best for you and your family.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 20, 2009 at 10:06 pm#125315

Participant

Hi LU:

You say:

Quote

Marty, Do you realize that Romans 8 is speaking about those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose? They are foreknown here.

Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew(future believers), He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He (the Son) would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined (future believers), He also called; and these whom He called (future believers), He also justified; and these whom He justified (those same believers), He also glorified. (He glorified those same believers)
NASU

In the above passage I have placed my understanding of the pronouns in parenthesis. Do you read it with different pronouns? If so, how?

No, I don't read it differently. I posted the scripture to show that Jesus is the firstborn of God, and that he was foreordained.

You say:

Quote

In other passages we can see that the role of the Son of God as the man called Jesus is foreknown. I do not believe that the Son of God needed to be foreknown since I believe He existed before the foundation of the earth but His future role as the Son of David, that was what was foreknown.

This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 21, 2009 at 12:20 am#125339

Participant

Hi Marty and Kerwin,
Thank you for your thoughtful replies. A big difference that is see between the Son and others that may be referred to as Elohyim is they are never credited with laying the foundation of the earth and heaven being the work of their hands. Also Hebrews 1 is very comparable to John 1 and helps explain that the “word” is indeed the Son of God. We know that from John 1:1 the word was in the beginning, God and at the same time, with GOD. Therefore I do not believe that the Son becomes God but was so in the beginning.

I will get to the definition of “God” later, Kerwin.

Yes, Marty, I too want to be corrected and pray accordingly if I am in error.

God bless ya,
Kathi

March 21, 2009 at 1:12 am#125341

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 21 2009,12:20)

I will get to the definition of “God” later, Kerwin.

Yes, Marty, I too want to be corrected and pray accordingly if I am in error.

God bless ya,
Kathi

Hi LU:

Maybe the following scriptures will help:

Quote

Jhn 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

It is through the works of obedience to the Father, that through the life and death of Jesus, we have seen God's character. It is this sense that Jesus is God.

And Jesus calls us brethren, and we also are the partakers of God's divine nature. Elohim, because He is the God of gods and the LORD of Lords.

Quote

Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Quote

Psa 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall

And this is intersting, I hadn't noticed this before now. What does He mean “all of the foundations of the earth are out of course”?

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 21, 2009 at 2:49 am#125347

Participant

Hi:

This scripture may explain Hebrews 1:10:

Quote

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou [art] my people.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 21, 2009 at 4:17 am#125350

NickHassan

Participant

Good call94.
Thanks

March 21, 2009 at 4:33 am#125357

Participant

Hi Marty,
You asked:

Quote

Quote
Psa 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall

And this is intersting, I hadn't noticed this before now. What does He mean “all of the foundations of the earth are out of course”?
[/QUOTE]
I think it could mean that they are “walking on shaky ground” so to speak when they don't abide in truth but succumb to darkness.

Quote

John 10:34-39

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came-and the Scripture cannot be broken- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
(from New International Version)

The NIV has a little different emphasis. I read it like this: if THEY are called gods, how much more then should the very Son of God be called God, his own offspring.

Quote

It is through the works of obedience to the Father, that through the life and death of Jesus, we have seen God's character. It is this sense that Jesus is God.

Once again, the Son was God in the beginning-John 1:1 The God of GOD. The begotten God. He didn't do something and then become God. Just being born of God as an offspring made Him God. Just like your son…he became a man by just being born from man. Man begets man, GOD begat God. He was born of God in the beginning, before time was established. He was born of Mary hundreds of years later. IMO.

God (the Father) was in Jesus IMO by His (the Father's) Spirit. Jesus was in God (the Father) by His unfailing abiding walk in His (the Father's) love and purpose and fellowship. IMO

Quote

This scripture may explain Hebrews 1:10:

Quote
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou [art] my people.

This could explain the new heavens and new earth. It seems to have a future tense to it. Hebrews 1:10 has a past tense to it.

God bless,
Kathi

March 21, 2009 at 5:44 am#125362

Participant

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

What is this conditional promise that sins are only forgiven for the striving ones?

That is what God states and God does not change. You yourself admit some will be forgiven their sins and others will not be but you seem not to know the criteria God set.

Ezekiel 18:21-24(NIV) reads:

Quote

“But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? “But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

There is more to this passage but what is here shows the contrast between those that do right and those that do wrong and whether their sins or righteousness will be remembered.

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

He sees His adopted sons enveloped with the robe of righteousness of his Son, the Holy One.

You sound like you are saying Jesus hides our sins from God. I assure you that is not the case as when scripture state we will be saved from our sins it does not mean we will continue to sin and yet be saved from the guilt for our sins. God has the power to stop us from sinning and He is willing and we need merely believe He will do it for us through faith in His Son even as it is written:

Romans 1:17(NIV) reads:

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For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

Guilt is the unsustainable burden of the unsaved, and not the saved empowered by grace to overcome.

I am not sure you are understanding what I am stating since guilt is really not part of the picture except for the godly guilt that leads one to repentance. If one feels godly guilt then it should leave you with the desire to change to more like Jesus and you will confess and feel confident that God will overcome your sin just as it is written:

1 John 1:9(NIV) reads:

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If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

and

2 Corinthians 7:10(NIV) reads:

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Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

No wonder you seem depressed.

That is a compliment I do not really think I deserve as I wish to be even more like Jesus than I currently am.

Isaiah 53:3(NIV) reads:

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He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

I assure you that God does answer my call when I am in distress though I would like him to answer it faster many times. Still God does what is right and if that means He takes longer to answer my call of distress then He has a good reason for doing so.

March 21, 2009 at 6:13 am#125363

NickHassan

Participant

Hi KW,
You say
“That is what God states and God does not change. You yourself admit some will be forgiven their sins and others will not be but you seem not to know the criteria God set.”

So when we obey the commands God forgives is it only conditional on us becoming sinfree?

Where is this written?

1Jn tells us we still sin so have none any hope?

March 21, 2009 at 6:16 am#125364

NickHassan

Participant

Hi KW,
Do you continue to worry about your imperfections?
What about the sins you are unaware of?
1jn3
19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

March 21, 2009 at 6:21 am#125366

Participant

942767(Marty) wrote:

Quote

This scripture may explain Hebrews 1:10

I am not seeing what you are alluding to. My problem is that the cite from Hebrews 1:10-12 comes from Psalms 102 and seems to be speaking about God instead of Jesus who is the archetypical righteous suffering servant. I am sure the writer of Hebrews would have known the difference between the Messiah and God but that does not seem the case with Hebrews 1:10-12. I have read Psalms 102 and I cannot see a way it could be translated to refer to a righteous suffering servant instead of God. If you are seeing it please let me know. Thank you.

942767(Marty) wrote:

Quote

And this is interesting; I hadn't noticed this before now. What does He mean “all of the foundations of the earth are out of course”?

I did a search for “founded” on the NIV versions and “righteousness” is one answer though it can be broken down to God’s wisdom and understanding. There could be synonyms of “founded” that may give you other details but I felt that was enough to bring understanding of what Psalms 82 is about.

942767(Marty) wrote:

Quote

And Jesus calls us brethren, and we also are the partakers of God's divine nature. Elohim, because He is the God of gods and the LORD of Lords.

Good point!

March 21, 2009 at 6:55 am#125367