The Way

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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,13:48)

Hi 94, Then if it is vital why do you not believe what scripture says about the one whose origins are from everlasting?

Hi Nick:

Where does the scripture state that I have to believe in pre-existence? I don't. He was fore-ordained, and I have scripture to support this.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
But it states somewhere that to believe he was with God in the beginning is dangerous?

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,14:25)

Hi 94, But it states somewhere that to believe he was with God in the beginning is dangerous?

Hi Nick:

We have already discussed all of this. It does not save anyone.

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that God has raised Him again from the dead. He is my Lord and God is my Father.

And so,

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1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

All are responsible to God for what we teach, and my desire is God's very best for every individual. Jesus exists now God my Father testifies within me by His Holy Spirit to this reality, and Jesus is my Lord.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
As I said it does not matter as far as salvation goes.
So we should ponder it.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,14:50)

Hi 94, As I said it does not matter as far as salvation goes. So we should ponder it.

Hi Nick:

As I have already stated, you and I have already discussed this, and there is nothing further that I have to say regarding this issue.

We all are responsible to God for what we teach. One of us is wrong regarding this, and so, my prayer is that God will either correct me or you so that we can teach God's Word in truth.

The commandment of Jesus when he was resurrected was not to go and preach pre-existence, but he said:

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Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Jn1
15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,15:12)

Hi 94, Jn1 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Hi Nick:

I am going to post the following scriptures and then I am calling it a night. As I have already stated, we have discussed this subject and we disagree in what we teach.

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1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
What or who was John speaking of that WAS BEFORE HIM?

[kerwin]

Lightenup wrote:

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Do you believe that by believing in those things somehow damages our faith?

I am stating that it is absolutely necessary to believe and have absolutely no doubt that God can and will stop you from sinning in this world.    If you do not believe that then you will not receive the Holy Spirit because that is exactly what living by it does and those that have doubt cannot expect to receive anything from God just as it is written:

James 1:5-8(NIV) reads:

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If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.

In order to have belief in God’s promise of true righteousness we must also believe that Jesus is the archetype man who has maintained the goal even though he was tempted by evil in every way just as we ourselves our which is to say he is a human being who has rejected walking according to the flesh (sinful nature) and instead chose to walk according to the Spirit that God placed within him.  His only advantage was his faith and that faith we can learn as he is willing to teach us and in fact does teach us for He states:

Luke 6:40(NIV) reads:

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A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

We read in the first part of Hebrews how the writer argues against the idea that Jesus is an angel.   The writer made that argument because he was aware that believing Jesus is an angel damages the true faith. Now if I understand you correctly you believe Jesus is God who cannot be tempted by evil while even angels can be tempted by evil.   It seems clear to be that if one is concerned believing Jesus is an angel is damaging to the true faith then believing he is God also damaging to the faith and that faith is of critical importance.

Now that is my argument and I surely hope you come to believe but I freely admit that I myself am but a student and far from fully trained.   It is my hope that you also are a student and that you are seeking the true gospel of Jesus our Lord and if that is so then I am confident God will not hold it against you the level of education you have achieved at this time.  Still the goal is to learn and adhere to the true gospel of Jesus the Messiah and if either you or I choose to reject that gospel and adhere to a false gospel then we will not enter the kingdom of heaven.  Satan our enemy and his servants have placed a lot of snares along the true path so we need to be careful not to be led astray in our search.

Lightenup wrote:

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So, do you find my on the narrow path or broad path, Kerwin?

I find you making a choice between the two paths.   The question is do you believe that God will make you truly righteous and if so you will ask seek and knock for it.   If your answer is truly yes then you are prepared to step on the narrow path.  That is for God to know and your actions to show.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
You said
” If you do not believe that then you will not receive the Holy Spirit because that is exactly what living by it does and those that have doubt cannot expect to receive anything from God just as it is written:”

So we must know all the detail about God's ways before he will share His Spirit with us?
Nonsense. We cannot know anything of importance until He deigns to do so.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Knowledge is not the essential matter for entry to the kingdom but the obedient faith of a child in the simple basics.

[Lightenup]

Hi Marty and Kerwin,

Something that I do not understand is that you both want to teach what is true but neither of you acknowledges the Son of God as the God that the Father speaks of in this passage below in Hebrews. This passage acknowledges that the “God” that the Father is referring to (His Son), has a God, the Father Himself.

Not only that but the “God” that the Father is referring to is also the Lord who laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning and that the heavens are the work of the Son's hands. Remember “laid the foundation” is written in the active voice meaning the subject (the Son) actually did the action. It seems to me that you both flat out deny the testimony of the Father regarding His Son here. Isn't believing God's testimony concerning His Son paramount?

Heb 1:8-11

8 But of the Son He says,

“YOUR THRONE, O GOD , IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10 And,

“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
NASU

1 John 5:10
…the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
NASU

Are you saved if you just believe part of the testimony that God has given regarding His Son and not all of the testimony He has given?

We are accountable to what God has given us and He has given us the book of Hebrews and the testimony of His Son who is called “God” who was alive in the beginning of creation or He could not have actively laid the foundation. If you do not believe that then you do not believe that part of the testimony that the Father has regarding His Son.

The Father clearly calls His Son “God” and He (the Father) is God of the Son. They are not equal which you understand yet both are called “God.” Why can you not acknowledge this?

Please do not read this as me condemming you. I am concerned and genuinely ask for you welfare. I do care about you as well as all of us here participating in the posts as well as those just reading along.

In His love,
LU

[Lightenup]

Hi Kerwin,
You wrote:

Quote

Now if I understand you correctly you believe Jesus is God who cannot be tempted by evil while even angels can be tempted by evil. It seems clear to be that if one is concerned believing Jesus is an angel is damaging to the true faith then believing he is God also damaging to the faith and that faith is of critical importance.

I do not believe that you understand me correctly here. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God who existed before creation and became flesh and is the God that the Father refers to in Hebrews 1. He was not a God who didn't limit Himself so that He couldn't be tempted. Just think of hunger for instance. I believe that the Son of God who, prior to flesh was spirit and did not get hungry, and then in the flesh did feel hungry, was led to the desert for forty days and went without food and became hungry, was tempted by satan to turn the rock into food and Christ did not give in to the temptation.

Luke 4:1-4
a Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness 2 for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And He ate nothing during those days, and when they had ended, He became hungry. 3 And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.” 4 And Jesus answered him, “It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE.'”
NASU
Now, it is not a sin to feed ourselves but obviously Jesus did not sense the Holy Spirit leading Him to perform a miracle in order to do that. Satan tempted Him to perform a miracle to satisfy a human need and Jesus did not give in to that temptation.

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Good points,
Hebrews 1 speaks not of the WORD but of the SON.

[kerwin]

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

So we must know all the detail about God's ways before he will share His Spirit with us?

That is not what I said though you do need to believe that if God says something then what He says is true.  There is some things you must believe and the one I am speaking of is that you must believe God’s promise of true righteousness which is the same as His promise of the Holy Spirit if you expect to receive that Spirit.

On the other hand I did agree with you that you do have to obey all of Jesus’ teachings but I did not go into them in my post to Lightenup.

Nick Hassan wrote:

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.Knowledge is not the essential matter for entry to the kingdom but the obedient faith of a child in the simple basics.

Be careful less you or your hearers use such ideas as an excuse to turn the grace of God into an excuse to embrace evil.  Jesus did in fact come to spread knowledge as did John the Baptist and the prophets before him and the apostles and others after his ascension.  We know the knowledge he spread was not of this world and such knowledge is indeed an essential matter for those that seek the obedient faith of a child of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Sanctification is the work of the indwelling Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

We cannot make ourselves righteous.

[SEEKING]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,14:43)

Hi KW, Sanctification is the work of the indwelling Spirit. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. We cannot make ourselves righteous.

Heb 2:11  For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,

Heb 10:10  And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Jud 1:1  Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Nick,

I have heard of sanctfication being a two part process, if you would.  I believe it is expressed as:

1) Positional sanctification of the saved done by Christ and the Father at conversion.

2) Progressive sanctification done by the Spirit within as we grow in Christ.

What is your take on that?

Blessings in your walk with the Lord,

Seeking

[NickHassan]

Hi S,
We are washed in the blood of the lamb and have our consciences cleansed by God in response to our plea in water baptism.[1Peter3]

But our vessels need ongoing cleansing as our feet walk in the filthy world.[jn13]

The Spirit given us must be allowed to infill and empower every part of us lest we be cut from the vine.[jn15, gal5]

It is the Spirit that is HOLY

[NickHassan]

Hi S,
Yes our actions and speech must not resist the call of the Spirit unto HOLINESS

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Peter 1:15
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

2 Peter 3:11
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

[SEEKING]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,15:14)

Hi S, We are washed in the blood of the lamb and have our consciences cleansed by God in response to our plea in water baptism.[1Peter3] But our vessels need ongoing cleansing as our feet walk in the filthy world.[jn13] The Spirit given us must be allowed to infill and empower every part of us lest we be cut from the vine.[jn15, gal5] It is the Spirit that is HOLY

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you…

Yes indeed! God's route to holiness works. The “boot strap” method is destined to fail.

Blessings in your walk with the Lord,

Seeking

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