The Way

Participant

Hi LU,
But the mercy of God saves many outside of the way.

March 17, 2009 at 10:42 am#125010

Participant

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

But the mercy of God saves many outside of the way.

Jesus is the only way to God but each person will be judged according to what they know. The passage that Lightenup quoted is speaking only of those that claim Jesus as their Lord and even among those it appears a remnant is all that will be saved. Still even if the percentage is extremely small that will be saved God is still merciful.

March 17, 2009 at 3:20 pm#125017

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 17 2009,06:42)

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

But the mercy of God saves many outside of the way.

Hi Nick and Kerwin,
Nick, this passage speaks of two paths, a narrow path and a broad path. The narrow leading to life, the broad leading to destruction. It doesn't say there is a way “outside” of this where He extends mercy. This is troubling to me and I would like to know when it comes right down to it, are many going to be saved or few like this passage indicates.

Matt 7:13-14
” Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
NASU

There are so many views about who the Son actually is here on Heaven net. Who has the Son, could it be everybody that believes He is the Messiah regardless of how God sent Him here, whether He was alive for all eternity past, had His beginning sometime before creation or merely began His life in Mary? If not, how do you “have” the Son? Do you have to know which of those above options is true to “have” the Son? Is that why it is narrow and some who say “Lord, Lord” are turned away?

1 John 5:11-12
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
NASU

If few will find the way and enter into life…and then the majority will be destroyed, does God win? I trust that He wins and I do not have clear understanding of this and maybe clear understanding is not possible till after the fact. I will trust that He has the perfect plan here.

It has been a sobering thought that few will enter the gate leading to life. So, tell me how accurately does one need to know the Son to be on the narrow path?

March 17, 2009 at 6:20 pm#125034

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 17 2009,22:42)

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

But the mercy of God saves many outside of the way.

Hi KW,
The general sheep and goat judgement in Mt 25 does not seem to specify that knowledge plays much of a part for those granted mercy.

All had not accepted the gospel and become sons and according to Jn3 deserved damnation but God found evidence of faith in their kindly actions towards the brothers of Jesus.

It is enough as the actions of Abraham were enough.

March 17, 2009 at 6:22 pm#125035

Participant

Hi LU,
Would you refuse God the right to save some outside of the way?

Matthew 22:10
So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

March 17, 2009 at 8:22 pm#125056

Participant

Lightenup wrote:

Quote

Nick, this passage speaks of two paths, a narrow path and a broad path. The narrow leading to life, the broad leading to destruction. It doesn't say there is a way “outside” of this where He extends mercy. This is troubling to me and I would like to know when it comes right down to it, are many going to be saved or few like this passage indicates.

Who was Jesus speaking to? Were they not those that heard his message? Since that is so it is clear the lesson was about them and not about those that did not hear the message.

This is one of the scriptures I use for the basis of my tenet that people are judged according to what they know.

Romans 2:14-15(NIV) reads:

Quote

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Lightenup wrote:

Quote

Do you have to know which of those above options is true to “have” the Son?

You have to adhere to the true gospel of Jesus Christ and not reject it when you hear it or rebel and refuse to hear it. I can give you some tips that you need to check out yourself to confirm they are true.

1} You need to know who God is and His most important qualities, (Those you must believe in), such as:
A) He is the source of love and without Him cannot love.
B) He can do anything except for evil and He cannot even be tempted by that.
C) He will destroy those who persist in doing evil and reward those who persist in doing right.
D) He demands and expects total righteousness.
E) He is merciful in that He gives us many chances to change out ways and rebukes, disciplines, and corrects us in order to teach us to do what is right.
F) He is willing, able, and will enable us do all He commands.
G) He is all knowing.
H) He micromanages our lives but not our actions.
I) Any that I might of missed but which are still important.
2) Once you know who God is then you must look for a gospel which is consistent with who He is and there is only one. Jesus teaches us to “ask, seek, and knock” and to persist in doing those three things. God exists and will answer those that are sincerely seeking to do what he wills and such people are those that hunger and thirst for righteousness.
3) So strive to have that hunger and thirst as God will give it to you if you strive sincerely and once you have that hunger you will be filled because God speaking through Jesus said so.
4) You must persist in begging God to reveal Himself, His Son, and His Son’s teachings to you but you also much put action to your words and thoughts.

What I say is not the whole gospel but merely a way to seek and perhaps find the true good news of Jesus Christ. May God grant you speed and success in finding it and adhering to it.

Lightenup wrote:

Quote

Is that why it is narrow and some who say “Lord, Lord” are turned away?

I am afraid so. I myself chose just lately to believe a lie which caused me to suffer great pain and it is only by the grace of God that is all I suffered. Had I chosen to believe the truth I might have avoided that pain but instead I accepted as truth a claim that made my itching ears feel better instead of actually solving the problem my own actions had caused. Sadly there are many that will do the same and instead of confronting their own evil actions and calling in the healer they will deny them or deny they can change and so seek to justify their evil actions by attempting to use Jesus as a shield against their just fate. Jesus does not protect us from God but he does protect us from Satan’s schemes if we are sincere in following him and holding to his teachings.

Lightenup wrote:

Quote

I agree!

Lightenup wrote:

Quote

It has been a sobering thought that few will enter the gate leading to life. So, tell me how accurately does one need to know the Son to be on the narrow path?

It is said that the one that truly loves God obey all of His commands. I know that I have yet to reach that point but I believe that as long as I am truly pursuing it that God will credit me for having reached it. I am not sure I can back that belief up in scripture though it does seem consistent to who God is.

March 17, 2009 at 8:47 pm#125057

Participant

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

The general sheep and goat judgment in Mt 25 does not seem to specify that knowledge plays much of a part for those granted mercy.

I agree with that assessment since it was a teaching that was only addressing those that heard what Jesus taught and claimed to follow Him. He also taught that He was the only way which seems to clearly mean that those that hear him teaching but reject His teaching will not enter the kingdom of heaven. By “hear” I am pretty sure it means those who comprehend it as children and some of the mentally disabled may not. It is from other parts such as Romans 2:14-15 that I get the idea that God judges people according to what they know.

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

All had not accepted the gospel and become sons and according to Jn3 deserved damnation but God found evidence of faith in their kindly actions towards the brothers of Jesus.

I can see where you are coming from but I believe you are putting too much into that teaching since your interpretation would seem to clearly contradict the teaching that Jesus is the only way and the people you describe heard his teaching.

Matthew 10:42(NIV) reads:

Quote

And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward.”

Mark 9:41 of the New International Version is probably a more accurate rendition of the ideas he was trying to teach to his students.

I certainly do not want to spread a lie in the name of God and I am but a student that is learning and therefore not fully informed about the teaching of Jesus but I will advance a hypothesis that is relevant to this discussion. That hypothosis is that I believe that some people are slower to learn than others and so it takes them time to come to believe the true good news of Jesus our Messiah and that God takes that into account in judging them. This hypothesis seems consistent with God being merciful and patient.

March 17, 2009 at 9:28 pm#125061

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2009,14:22)

Hi LU,
Would you refuse God the right to save some outside of the way?

Matthew 22:10
So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Hi Nick,
I would be very happy for God to show grace and save the majority of man. I would certainly not refuse God any rights nor could I.

So, are you saying that those on the narrow and broad way are only those who have heard the gospel and not necessarily all man?.

Can those who believe in the Son of God as being a mere man who began in Mary and trust in that particular Jesus be on the narrow road?

What about those who believe that the Son of God existed before creation, became a man, and died, rose again…can they be on the narrow road?

What about those who believe that the Son of God always existed and is equal to the Father, can they be on the narrow road?

Can all of the above be on the narrow path Nick? What do you think?

March 17, 2009 at 9:35 pm#125063

Participant

Hi KW,
Those following Jesus do not all share the same level of understanding but they have all obeyed the simple commands of Jesus.

March 17, 2009 at 10:01 pm#125068

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2009,17:35)

Hi KW,
Those following Jesus do not all share the same level of understanding but they have all obeyed the simple commands of Jesus.

Hi Nick,
What do you say are the simple commands of Jesus to obey in order to be on the narrow path?
LU

March 17, 2009 at 10:53 pm#125071

Participant

Hi LU,

You must be reborn of water and the Spirit.
Repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin .
Heb4 pleads with us to seek the millenial rest of God by being in the first resurrection.

March 18, 2009 at 4:52 am#125096

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 18 2009,05:01)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2009,17:35)

Hi KW,
Those following Jesus do not all share the same level of understanding but they have all obeyed the simple commands of Jesus.

Hi Nick,
What do you say are the simple commands of Jesus to obey in order to be on the narrow path?
LU

Here is what I have discovered. It is the top post which is also mine. Nick seems to have shortened what he believes which I would be afraid to do since God clearly instructs us not to subtract or add to His words. Maybe he will clarify his position for our better understanding.

March 18, 2009 at 6:06 am#125099

Participant

Hi KW,
The simplest?
FOLLOW ME

March 18, 2009 at 6:09 am#125101

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2009,13:06)

Hi KW,
The simplest?
FOLLOW ME

Obey all of Jesus teaching is a good way of putting it.

March 18, 2009 at 6:40 pm#125126

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2009,00:52)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 18 2009,05:01)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2009,17:35)

Hi KW,
Those following Jesus do not all share the same level of understanding but they have all obeyed the simple commands of Jesus.

Hi Nick,
What do you say are the simple commands of Jesus to obey in order to be on the narrow path?
LU

Hi Kerwin,
I have pasted your post that you wrote and are referring to in the quote above.

Quote

The gospel includes many elements and one is about the knowledge of God. You must believe that when God makes a promise he can and will fulfill that promise no matter how impossible it seems. You much believe that God wants you to be saved and will strive to save you. You must believe that God is truly righteous and desires true righteousness from his servants.

A second element is that you must believe that Jesus is the Messiah promised by God to the people of old and the one that God has now made king over everything in heaven and on earth.

You must believe that Jesus is the archetype of the righteous man or in other words the image of the invisible God and that God speaks and acts through him.

You must believe Jesus is a human being just like the rest of us and so fully tempted by sin even as we are but without giving into that temptation because he maintains a perfect faith even to this day.

You must believe that what Jesus did for himself he can do for you by the power of God.

A third element is that you must believe that you can stop sinning in this world. You must believe that cannot stop sinning by human effort because the spirit of man is corrupt but you can stop sinning by the power of God because the new spirit he gives you is not corrupt and can be adhered to by faith in God's Goodness and Power.

You must believe that Jesus promised that spirit with the words “blessed are they that hunger and thirst for righteousness for they will be filled” and in other places.

You must believe all of this when you chose to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins which is the forth element. Baptism is an act of obedience that involves being immersed in water. Here I have some confusion since baptism was originally a Jewish ritual and the way they practice it today is different than how it is practiced in the Christian churches of this time. The bible seems to support the idea that both the baptiser and baptisee get into the water unlike what Jewish people do.

The last element is that you need to mature in your faith and thus learn to live by the spirit you receive at baptism until you reach a fullness in Christ and then you must persevere in that faith.

Believing Jesus is a God, Angel, Semi-God, etc. is damaging to the faith because it damages your belief that he was tempted just as you are but without sin.

I agree with what you have written except I would like to address this comment:

Quote

Believing Jesus is a God, Angel, Semi-God, etc. is damaging to the faith because it damages your belief that he was tempted just as you are but without sin.

So are you saying that someone like me, who believes that:

The Son of God was given life as an only offspring of God and not by creation, and then actively participated in creation.

Who is also the God of GOD because He was begotten of GOD who shares the nature of His Father yet not equal to the Father.

And who also handicaps Himself of all advantages even His own memory, takes on the limits of flesh becoming a baby human yet is holy and without the curse of sin.

Do you believe that by believing in those things somehow damages our faith?

Are you of the opinion that He cannot feel hunger and therefore not be tempted to make food, or weakness, tiredness, physical pain and not me tempted to avoid those things?

From what you said in the quote, you think that those with the above beliefs are damaged and that the Son of God that we understand cannot be tempted like man. Are we among those on the broad path leading to destruction? If that is what you believe then I challenge that thinking.

I believe that He was God of GOD, emptied Himself of any advantage that came from His prior existence, took on the limits of a fleshly infant's body and a human baby's mindset. He truly felt hunger, thirst, weakness, tiredness, and physical pain and therefore could be tempted to avoid those feelings. He was definetly tempted and He overcame the temptations of satan in the wilderness. He was still the God of GOD that He was before but limited Himself to be able to be tempted, and to shed blood among other things.

So, do you find my on the narrow path or broad path, Kerwin?

Thanks for your opinions thus far,
LU

March 19, 2009 at 12:49 am#125137

942767

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 19 2009,06:40)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2009,00:52)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 18 2009,05:01)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2009,17:35)

Hi KW,
Those following Jesus do not all share the same level of understanding but they have all obeyed the simple commands of Jesus.

Hi Nick,
What do you say are the simple commands of Jesus to obey in order to be on the narrow path?
LU

Hi Kerwin,
I have pasted your post that you wrote and are referring to in the quote above.

Quote

A second element is that you must believe that Jesus is the Messiah promised by God to the people of old and the one that God has now made king over everything in heaven and on earth.

You must believe that Jesus is the archetype of the righteous man or in other words the image of the invisible God and that God speaks and acts through him.

You must believe that what Jesus did for himself he can do for you by the power of God.

You must believe that Jesus promised that spirit with the words “blessed are they that hunger and thirst for righteousness for they will be filled” and in other places.

The last element is that you need to mature in your faith and thus learn to live by the spirit you receive at baptism until you reach a fullness in Christ and then you must persevere in that faith.

Believing Jesus is a God, Angel, Semi-God, etc. is damaging to the faith because it damages your belief that he was tempted just as you are but without sin.

I agree with what you have written except I would like to address this comment:

Quote

Believing Jesus is a God, Angel, Semi-God, etc. is damaging to the faith because it damages your belief that he was tempted just as you are but without sin.

So are you saying that someone like me, who believes that:

The Son of God was given life as an only offspring of God and not by creation, and then actively participated in creation.

Who is also the God of GOD because He was begotten of GOD who shares the nature of His Father yet not equal to the Father.

And who also handicaps Himself of all advantages even His own memory, takes on the limits of flesh becoming a baby human yet is holy and without the curse of sin.

Do you believe that by believing in those things somehow damages our faith?

Are you of the opinion that He cannot feel hunger and therefore not be tempted to make food, or weakness, tiredness, physical pain and not me tempted to avoid those things?

So, do you find my on the narrow path or broad path, Kerwin?

Thanks for your opinions thus far,
LU

Very Good, Kerwin I agree with all that you have stated.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 19, 2009 at 1:01 am#125139

Participant

Hi,
Knowing the detail of the origins of Jesus does not directly impact on salvation available through him.

March 19, 2009 at 1:15 am#125142

942767

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,13:01)

Hi,
Knowing the detail of the origins of Jesus does not directly impact on salvation available through him.

HI:

There is but “one” judge. However, God has revealed to the church who Jesus is and that is that he is “The Christ the Son of the Living God”, and that there is but “One God” and “One” mediator between God and man “the man Christ Jesus”.

Salvation is based on “one's believing God's testimony regarding His Son”.

My desire is God's very best for every individual.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 19, 2009 at 1:48 am#125144