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Hi not3,
All men start as puny infants. Even JTB, who was filled with the Spirit from the womb, is not recorded as bypassing this phase.What you say is true. However, when you say “puny” you always refer to the MAN Jesus. Saying that we start out puny is one thing, but to say that as a man, Jesus remained puny is another.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2007,12:49) Hi KJ,
The monogenes Son was not eternal. He was a son as were the other sons present at the laying of the foundation of the earth[Jb38] He was the most important under God being an instrument for all creation. He had more to lose than any being under God. Yet he consented to come as a puny earthly, ignorant and weak man.
Here is your original quote for review.Hi not3,
From the point of view of God all men are puny.
How high do you have to go in a plane till people are unable to be seen and even cars are like ants?Do you think the Father views his Son differently than he views you (puny man)?
God never said he was “Well pleased” with mankind – he said this of Jesus.We are puny. Jesus is the beloved Son of God Almighty.
Hi not3,
Being loved by God does not make anyone bigger or more important.
God loves the whole world though not all will enjoy that benefit.
The work of Christ was the work of God within Him.“My strength shows up best in weak people”
Quote (kejonn @ July 16 2007,07:13) I do not mean to cheapen the death on the cross. It is our everything.
I wonder, Kevin, do you still believe this? Do you still believe that Jesus died as our promised Messiah who will bring ultimate salvation to our souls? If not, what is your take now?This is an interesting thread, at any rate.
At the risk of seeming dissrespectful, forgive me God,
this topic has been a stumbling block for me.If Jesus is truly God, then He knew that He was only coming
down here for a short while and then going back to being God again.
There was no faith in the unknown involved, as we are required to have.
He knew it was going to be a short visit and then back to heaven.And even if your belief is that Jesus was the son of God and not God Himself.
Where is the God who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son.
God knew that He was only lending His son for a short while, and then taking Him back. That seems to be no
eternal sacrifice on the part of God.
Hundreds of thousands of other people suffered the same kind of death as Jesus for
crimes no worse than believing in Jesus. And they ahd no proof of what would happen to them after death.Please don't condemn me to some gruesome eternity for these thoughts.
I can't help wondering.Doesn't this cheapen the ” sacrifice” of the crucifiction if God and Jesus knew that
it was only temporary?Tim
Oh, my goodness! Tim, you have read my mind and things that I have thought as well.
This is why I think that Jesus had a choice. The mission could have failed. Jesus could have married and moved out of Nazereth and bought a house in the burbs; had kids and led a “normal” life, albeit a divine life because he was God's Son. Nevertheless, I've always said that his genes or DNA were not especially different than ours, other than he would have some attributes of God Almighty (no small thing, I guess, huh? Ha!). So he would glow with the radiance of God every now and then – so what?
Back to all seriousness though, I agree with your thoughts and I wonder what other's think on this topic of sacrifice. I remember telling my sister when I was younger, “So what's the big deal with the cross? Other's died that same death?” Hmmmmm
And ya, if God knew he was only “lending” us his Son for a while – would would the big sacrifice be?
Thanks, Tim. Keep the ideas coming…..
Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 03 2007,23:54) At the risk of seeming dissrespectful, forgive me God,
this topic has been a stumbling block for me.If Jesus is truly God, then He knew that He was only coming
down here for a short while and then going back to being God again.
There was no faith in the unknown involved, as we are required to have.
He knew it was going to be a short visit and then back to heaven.And even if your belief is that Jesus was the son of God and not God Himself.
Where is the God who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son.
God knew that He was only lending His son for a short while, and then taking Him back. That seems to be no
eternal sacrifice on the part of God.
Hundreds of thousands of other people suffered the same kind of death as Jesus for
crimes no worse than believing in Jesus. And they ahd no proof of what would happen to them after death.Please don't condemn me to some gruesome eternity for these thoughts.
I can't help wondering.Doesn't this cheapen the ” sacrifice” of the crucifiction if God and Jesus knew that
it was only temporary?Tim
And, why Luke 23:34 or Matthew 27:46?Stuart
Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 03 2007,23:54) At the risk of seeming dissrespectful, forgive me God,
this topic has been a stumbling block for me.If Jesus is truly God, then He knew that He was only coming
down here for a short while and then going back to being God again.
There was no faith in the unknown involved, as we are required to have.
He knew it was going to be a short visit and then back to heaven.And even if your belief is that Jesus was the son of God and not God Himself.
Where is the God who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son.
God knew that He was only lending His son for a short while, and then taking Him back. That seems to be no
eternal sacrifice on the part of God.
Hundreds of thousands of other people suffered the same kind of death as Jesus for
crimes no worse than believing in Jesus. And they ahd no proof of what would happen to them after death.Please don't condemn me to some gruesome eternity for these thoughts.
I can't help wondering.Doesn't this cheapen the ” sacrifice” of the crucifiction if God and Jesus knew that
it was only temporary?Tim
Hi Timothy,
A couple of thoughts off the top of my head. Yeshua's death was unique in several senses. His death was substitutional. He was utterly unblemished (1 Peter 1:19), but our sin was imputed to Him. During the act of the crucifixion (the cruelest execution yet devised) He was “made sin for us”:“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:21 )
“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us–for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE” (Galatians 3:13)
I don't believe Yeshua has a contemporary is this regard. No other human adult has lived a sinless lfe, and then taken the sins of all humanity in death – what ever that would entail. It's also notable that for the first and only time the Father forsook Yeshua. They had an exceptionally unique relationship and seperation like this would have been what Yeshua was really fearing in Gethsemane , I think. Lastly, there was at least one consequence of the temporal existence on Earth that was permanent. When Yeshua took on the form of a bond servant and was put to death he remained a man foreveremore. The incarnation was sacrificial in and of itself as what ever you believe Yeshua to be before his incarnation the new form he took on, i.e. humananity, was irrevocable.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 03 2007,23:54) At the risk of seeming dissrespectful, forgive me God,
this topic has been a stumbling block for me.If Jesus is truly God, then He knew that He was only coming
down here for a short while and then going back to being God again.
There was no faith in the unknown involved, as we are required to have.
He knew it was going to be a short visit and then back to heaven.And even if your belief is that Jesus was the son of God and not God Himself.
Where is the God who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son.
God knew that He was only lending His son for a short while, and then taking Him back. That seems to be no
eternal sacrifice on the part of God.
Hundreds of thousands of other people suffered the same kind of death as Jesus for
crimes no worse than believing in Jesus. And they ahd no proof of what would happen to them after death.Please don't condemn me to some gruesome eternity for these thoughts.
I can't help wondering.Doesn't this cheapen the ” sacrifice” of the crucifiction if God and Jesus knew that
it was only temporary?Tim
Hi Tim, Nice post full of thought How close can we stand to the cross, and his life been cut of.
Jer 11:19 But I [was] like a lamb [or] an ox [that] is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, [saying], Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.
And then on top of that..evil continues in the confusion
Foolishness…… insistant…incoruption saw death?
Keep it up Tim and Kejonn
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 04 2007,12:52) Tim[/quote]
And, why Luke 23:34 or Matthew 27:46?Stuart
Hi stu,Actually Luke 23:34 is interesting to me for another reason than that which you suggest.
It has always been comforting to think that Jesus asked God to forgive these wretches in spite of what they were doing.But if you read the Greek interlineary wording of that verse it really sounds like Jesus was emploring His Father to NOT forgive them.
“Jesus said Father, pardon you to them not, for they have perceived what they are doing.” Luke 23:34
In other words. Father, forgive them not, for they know what they are doing.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 04 2007,22:34) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 04 2007,12:52) Tim
And, why Luke 23:34 or Matthew 27:46?Stuart[/quote]
Hi stu,Actually Luke 23:34 is interesting to me for another reason than that which you suggest.
It has always been comforting to think that Jesus asked God to forgive these wretches in spite of what they were doing.But if you read the Greek interlineary wording of that verse it really sounds like Jesus was emploring His Father to NOT forgive them.
“Jesus said Father, pardon you to them not, for they have perceived what they are doing.” Luke 23:34
In other words. Father, forgive them not, for they know what they are doing.
Tim
I didn't notice that before? A simple move of the comma.
Like the thief on the cross!Luk 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
…I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Rom 11:8 as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
Rom 11:9 And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
Rom 11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”Rom 11:15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
I heard something I found interesting, That our spirit has been resurrected already~brought back to life~ but our flesh has not and is still dead.
Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Alive in the spirit but dead in the flesh.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 04 2007,22:34) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 04 2007,12:52) Tim
And, why Luke 23:34 or Matthew 27:46?Stuart
Hi stu,Actually Luke 23:34 is interesting to me for another reason than that which you suggest.
It has always been comforting to think that Jesus asked God to forgive these wretches in spite of what they were doing.But if you read the Greek interlineary wording of that verse it really sounds like Jesus was emploring His Father to NOT forgive them.
“Jesus said Father, pardon you to them not, for they have perceived what they are doing.” Luke 23:34
In other words. Father, forgive them not, for they know what they are doing.
Tim[/quote]
Timothy Where do you go to read up on the interlinerary in Greek? I ner heard of that before. I do not have a Greek tranlatiom of the Bible.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 05 2007,00:53) Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 04 2007,22:34) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 04 2007,12:52) Tim
And, why Luke 23:34 or Matthew 27:46?Stuart
Hi stu,Actually Luke 23:34 is interesting to me for another reason than that which you suggest.
It has always been comforting to think that Jesus asked God to forgive these wretches in spite of what they were doing.But if you read the Greek interlineary wording of that verse it really sounds like Jesus was emploring His Father to NOT forgive them.
“Jesus said Father, pardon you to them not, for they have perceived what they are doing.” Luke 23:34
In other words. Father, forgive them not, for they know what they are doing.
Tim[/quote]
Timothy Where do you go to read up on the interlinerary in Greek? I ner heard of that before. I do not have a Greek tranlatiom of the Bible.Peace and Love Mrs.
http://www.thedcl.org/bible/diaglott-nt/index.htmlThis is a greek word for word translation.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 05 2007,00:53) Tim[/quote]
Timothy Where do you go to read up on the interlinerary in Greek? I ner heard of that before. I do not have a Greek tranlatiom of the Bible.
Actually, I find this site easier to navigate.http://www.scripture4all.org/index.htm
You can search through the Greek or the Hebrew
translations.Tim
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