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And so, praying asking God for understanding, I gather when the full number of the gentiles has been saved then the full number of those from the nation of Israel will be saved. There are many jews who are being saved now, but apparently, there will be an abundance of them who will believe as we approach the time of the Lord coming for the church. Perhaps, when church accepts that their doctrine of “trinity” is a misunderstanding of scripture, and starts teaching there is “ONE GOD”, the Jews will believe that Jesus is their Messiah. By experience, I know that they will not accept that God is a “triune God”. “I am the Lord thy God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, Thou shalt have no other gods besides “ME” (singular)”. There is “ONLY ONE GOD OF ISRAEL”.
Hi 942767 and Adam.
Wow, is this exchange of beliefs and/or doctrine getting hot and heavy. It is very encouraging to see a discussion like this underway with the exchange of beliefs or ideas, without attacking one another. Lets face it, none of us have the complete truth of Gods' word, interaction like this a benefit for all of us, as we exchange what we belive to be scriptural. I'm sure we all will gain some insite with interaction of this sort.
There has been such a variety of subjects that I'm not sure how I can contribute, but I'll try.
First, about “Israel of God”, I've also heard we are “spititual Israel”. I personally do not find any scriptual proof of any of these terms. I will ignore these beliefs for now, until such time as anyone can show me scripture that uses and describes these terms.
Now regarding the “Old Covanent”, this was between God and The Jews, mediated by Moses. It was a two way covanent, meaning that if Israel did “this”, then God would do “that”. They (Jews) were given the “Law”, and if they obeyed, then God would “bless” them.
The result , if they had accepted the promised Messiah, they would reign with Him (Jesus) for the millenium ,1000 years. They (Jews) could not do that, (obey the Law) and when the prophesied Messiah came, they rejected Him, and crucified Him. After His ressurrection, they still rejected Him, the covenant was broken, and God divorced them (Jews) and truned to the gentiles. (Acts.13:46). We are now under a new covenant, Grace, (2.Cor.3:6), available to Jew or Gentile of Gods' choosing (the ecclesia or body of Christ), which will be raptured (not a biblical term), but “snatched away” when Christ calls us “in the air” (not His earthly return).(1Thessalonians4:13-18)
(this part is a little foggy for me) After the tribulation, (remember all believers have been raptured), when Christ returns, then God will make a “new Covenant with Israel” (the Jews) . This is prophesied in Heb.8:8-13, then the “kingdom” will finally be reached by Israel, with Christ their King, and they shall be a Nation of “Priests” (prophesied in Exodus19:3-6) and will reign for 1000 years.
So to sum it up, as I see it, there are two covenants with Israel, the “Old” and “New” that is still future, the other covanent with us is the covenant of “Grace” given to us now, both Jew and gentile, there is no difference in this present eon (age).
Having said all this, I believe that God is in complete control, all this is being predestined by Him. “God is operating ALL in accord with the councel of His will” (Eph.1:11)
Now this is my understanding, again, I am mortal, and subject to error as any mortal is. But I hope this discussion will kindle a spark of light in our understanding of Gods' ways.God Bless, Jerry.
Quote (942767 @ July 14 2008,15:51) And so, praying asking God for understanding, I gather when the full number of the gentiles has been saved then the full number of those from the nation of Israel will be saved. There are many jews who are being saved now, but apparently, there will be an abundance of them who will believe as we approach the time of the Lord coming for the church. Perhaps, when church accepts that their doctrine of “trinity” is a misunderstanding of scripture, and starts teaching there is “ONE GOD”, the Jews will believe that Jesus is their Messiah. By experience, I know that they will not accept that God is a “triune God”. “I am the Lord thy God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, Thou shalt have no other gods besides “ME” (singular)”. There is “ONLY ONE GOD OF ISRAEL”.
Hi brother 942767,
You are right God is working on us to reveal His perfect will concerning His people called Israel. Here are some thoughts on these undestandings on Romans 11:26 (I have just taken from some website may be useful to you and others).Romans 11:26
The eventual redemption of the Jews and their continued, indisputable, ranking as the people with whom the God of Israel's has entered into an eternal covenant, is clearly born out and emphasized in the book to the Romans. It reaches a climax in Romans 11:26 where the Lord unequivocally declared,
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.There is a clear rationale concerning the salvation of the Jews (Israel) in this statement, based on the fact that the Saviour of the world will come from their part of the world. It implies that it will be rather ridiculous if they would be excluded from the salvation he has on offer to the world since he came from their ranks. It is a fulfillment of the wish expressed in Psalms 14:7,
Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people, let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.That the Saviour will come from their ranks is also reflected in John 4:22, You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Difficult as it is to imagine today, the time will come that the scenario that is envisioned in the following scriptures, will come true:
Zechariah 8:23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: “In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, Because we have heard that God is with you.'” Isaiah 2:3 Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.Although Romans 11:26 has to do with the spiritual salvation of Israel, most of one hundred cross references to it yielded by the Godspeed (NIV) computer program, have to do with the physical restoration of Israel. That the coming of Yeshua had as much to do with Israel's spiritual salvation as it has with their physical restoration is shown in Isaiah 49:8.9 & 12(Living Bible):
The Lord says, “Your request (Yeshua's) has come at a favourable time, I will keep you from premature harm and give you as a token and a pledge to Israel, proof that I will reestablish the land of Israel and reassign it to its own people again…..12 See, my people shall RETURN from far away, from north and west and south.”From this it is clear that this salvation of “all of Israel” doesn't have anything to do with the church, which proves that the church on its own cannot be called Israel. Secondly it shows that God's priority with Israel, at first, is their physical restoration (Note that the same word is mostly used for RETURN & REPENT)
Whereas scripture doesn't really connect Gentiles believers with the spiritual salvation of Israel, it explicitly involves them in the RETURN of the Jews to Israel, and the restoration of the land. The following scriptures are examples of this:
Isaiah 49:22 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: “See, I will beckon to the Gentiles, I will lift up my banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their shoulders.
Isaiah 60:10 “Foreigners will rebuild your walls, and their kings will serve you. Though in anger I struck you, in favor I will show you compassion.
Isaiah 61:5 Aliens will shepherd your flocks; foreigners will work your fields and vineyards.
Deuteronomy 6:11 Houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant–then when you eat and are satisfied
The last scripture even shows that they are entitled to houses built in the land by others.Unfortunately, however, most Gentile believers, including church leaders, are totally ignorant of the God of Israel's agenda with Israel. The only interest and burden they have for Israel is for the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah. They claim to have spiritual input in their lives and ministries, but they don't know God's heart's cry to re-establish himself on his Holy Mountain in Israel. Not keeping abreast with developments in Israel, they are unable to form an estimate of the time still left before the coming of the Messiah. They visit Israel, and are mesmerised by evidence of the historical past they see and sense, but events that still need to take place there mean nothing to them. This is due to the dogma church members have been indoctrinated with that they are the kingdom of God and that nothing else counts any longer – especially not the Jews since God is finished with them; that their bodies are the temples of God and that a physical temple isn't necessary any more. But they are ignorant of God's desire to rule from his Holy mountain.They don't know about the humiliation God has to endure while his holy hill in Jerusalem is being desecrated by the mosques of a foreign god; that his people (Jews and Christians) are not allowed to pray or read the bible on the Temple Mount; that they want to divide his land?
It is it important to show solidarity with God in what is important to him! No wonder Paul had to say to Gentile believers, “Do not be arrogant, but be afraid!” This was said in the following context:
Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in. 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.At this time, church leaders are stirring up their members to be involved in the ingathering of the “GREAT” End-Time HARVEST. It is mostly based on the following scriptures: Revelation 14:15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Joel 3:13 Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes, for the winepress is full and the vats overflow–so great is their wickedness!
It could very well be that what the angel in Revelation 14:15 calls for, will be an execution of the prophecy in Joel 13:3. The ingathering of the harvest in the end time will therefore be of those who had been chosen for salvation, to spare them from God's judgment of the world. But it does not specifically indicate that it is going to be a big harvest. Contrary to that, a lot is said about apostasy in the end-times:
Matthew 24:12 Because of the increa
se of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.
II Peter 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.It also needs to be pointed out that there is a TIME-frame attached to a harvest from the Gentiles. The promise in Romans 11:26 that “all Israel will be saved”, is preceded by the following warning to Gentiles in verse 25,
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.End-time Bible teachers who realize the relevance of Israel, perceive this turning point in history, when God shifted his involvement from the salvation of the Gentiles to that of the Jews, to be the time of the rebirth of the State of Israel in 1948. It is, nevertheless, clear that this transition is effected over a period of time since Jerusalem is still in part being trampled by the Gentiles, in line with the prediction in Luke 21:24,
…..Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.It must be noted, however, that this transitional period will also be used to provoke the nations to become involved in Jerusalem. Ironically, instrumental in this enticement is none other than Yasser Arafat and other Palestinian Leaders who were doing their best to get the nations to side with them against Israel. What will eventually cause the nations to gather against her as they did against Saddam Hussein during the Gulf War (although in smaller measure), remains to be seen. Zechariah wrote about it:
Zechariah 12:3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. Zechariah 12:9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.May God bless you
AdamQuote (chosenone @ July 14 2008,17:09) Hi 942767 and Adam.
Wow, is this exchange of beliefs and/or doctrine getting hot and heavy. It is very encouraging to see a discussion like this underway with the exchange of beliefs or ideas, without attacking one another. Lets face it, none of us have the complete truth of Gods' word, interaction like this a benefit for all of us, as we exchange what we belive to be scriptural. I'm sure we all will gain some insite with interaction of this sort.
There has been such a variety of subjects that I'm not sure how I can contribute, but I'll try.
First, about “Israel of God”, I've also heard we are “spititual Israel”. I personally do not find any scriptual proof of any of these terms. I will ignore these beliefs for now, until such time as anyone can show me scripture that uses and describes these terms.
Now regarding the “Old Covanent”, this was between God and The Jews, mediated by Moses. It was a two way covanent, meaning that if Israel did “this”, then God would do “that”. They (Jews) were given the “Law”, and if they obeyed, then God would “bless” them.
The result , if they had accepted the promised Messiah, they would reign with Him (Jesus) for the millenium ,1000 years. They (Jews) could not do that, (obey the Law) and when the prophesied Messiah came, they rejected Him, and crucified Him. After His ressurrection, they still rejected Him, the covenant was broken, and God divorced them (Jews) and truned to the gentiles. (Acts.13:46). We are now under a new covenant, Grace, (2.Cor.3:6), available to Jew or Gentile of Gods' choosing (the ecclesia or body of Christ), which will be raptured (not a biblical term), but “snatched away” when Christ calls us “in the air” (not His earthly return).(1Thessalonians4:13-18)
(this part is a little foggy for me) After the tribulation, (remember all believers have been raptured), when Christ returns, then God will make a “new Covenant with Israel” (the Jews) . This is prophesied in Heb.8:8-13, then the “kingdom” will finally be reached by Israel, with Christ their King, and they shall be a Nation of “Priests” (prophesied in Exodus19:3-6) and will reign for 1000 years.
So to sum it up, as I see it, there are two covenants with Israel, the “Old” and “New” that is still future, the other covanent with us is the covenant of “Grace” given to us now, both Jew and gentile, there is no difference in this present eon (age).
Having said all this, I believe that God is in complete control, all this is being predestined by Him. “God is operating ALL in accord with the councel of His will” (Eph.1:11)
Now this is my understanding, again, I am mortal, and subject to error as any mortal is. But I hope this discussion will kindle a spark of light in our understanding of Gods' ways.God Bless, Jerry.
Hi Jerry:I use the term Israel of God because the Apostle Paul uses it in the following verse, and also because we who are born again Christians have been grafted into that nation. The seed of Abraham is the body of Christ both Jew and gentile. Perhaps this explains why I use the term the “Israel of God”.
Quote Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 ¶ And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.Quote Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;Quote Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.You say:
Quote They (Jews) were given the “Law”, and if they obeyed, then God would “bless” them.
The result , if they had accepted the promised Messiah, they would reign with Him (Jesus) for the millenium ,1000 years. They (Jews) could not do that, (obey the Law) and when the prophesied Messiah came, they rejected Him, and crucified Him. After His ressurrection, they still rejected Him, the covenant was broken, and God divorced them (Jews) and truned to the gentiles. (Acts.13:46).Are you saying that those Jews who were under the Law who were striving to obey the Law prior to Jesus ministry were not saved because they failed to obey the Law without transgressing it?
Salvation is by Faith both for those who were under the Law under the OT and for us who are under grace in the NT. The Pharisees misunderstood this and throught that salvation was by the own righteousness. But that does not preclude the fact that those under the Law, prior to the advent of Jesus in his ministry, who were faithful were saved. The blood that Jesus shed has washed away those transgressions also.
“Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is](salvation is) of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all”
God knew that the people of the Nation of Israel who were under the law could not obey the Law without making a mistake and transgressing. It was never intended that they walk in perfect obedience to the Law. The Law was knowledge of sin. When they had knowledge of sin, they were to repent. They offered up the blood of animals that was to atone for their sins, but this was symbolic of the blood that would was away their sins, the blood of their and our Lord Jesus.
There were many Jews who accepted Jesus in his ministry. Some delivered him up to be crucified, that much is true, but we cannot make a blanket statement that “the Jews crucified Jesus”. Actually, we all had a part in crucifying him because he died for the sins of the whole world.
The Apostle Paul states the following about the Jews who rejected Jesus as their Messiah:
Quote Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, And so, are you saying that the covenant with the Jews in the end time will be different with the covenant that was made with them in Jesus ministry?
It is my understanding that all the body of Christ both from the nations and from the nation of Israel will be “caught up to meet the Lord in the air” at his coming. If someone is not a part of the body of Christ at that time, there will not be any more opportunity to be saved.
Quote 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.My understanding of the endtime events is that God will intervene at some point against those who are coming against Christians and Jesus (Ezekiel 37 & 38, Zech. 14). After that time there will be a 7 year peace treaty in Israel with those who were coming against her. Those Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah will rebuild the temple during the first part of this seven year period and begin offering animal sacrifices as they did in the OT. The Anti-Christ will stop them from offering animal sacrifices in the middle of that seven year period, and will set himself up in the temple showing himself to be God at the end of that seven year period. At that time the great tribultation will begin. The whole body of Christ who are alive at this time will be on earth for 45 days after the great tribulation begins, and then they will be caught up to be with the Lord and will reign with him 1000 years, not on earth but in the heavens. Those who were not a part of the body of Christ will have received the mark of the beast, and will be punished by the seven last plagues according to their works. After the 1000 years, those who died in their sins will be resurrected to be judged and will be punished in the lake of fire according to their works. They will not burn forever as some teach, but they will be destroyed forever. God will then make the heavens and earth anew, a paradise for His children. The Lord will then establish his kingdom on earth.
The above is a summary of what I understand the scriptures to say about the end times. If you want the scriptures, I can supply them.
Thus there is only two covenants which I have already stated. I have heard the teaching that you state about the Jews staying after the “catching away of the church” and the Lord making a coventant with them, but I just do not understand the scriptures to say this.
As you say, we are all subject to misinterpret scripture, and we must be willing to accept correction when we make a mistake. We should not let our pride stand in the way. If God sees us teaching His Word in error and He doesn't correct us then He does not love us, and so let's join hands in prayer asking God to help us to understand His Word so that we can teach His Word in truth.
God Bless
Hi 942767.
Thanks for your reply, very well put and an interesting perspective on all you describe. Regarding the “Israel of God”, thanks for pointing to the scripure that says that, I hadn't been aware of that phrase until you pointed it out to me. I'm not sure the meaning of that phrase, if you have an explanation I will be glad to hear it.
I agree with what you are saying about the Jews and the law, and their covering of sin every year on the day of atonement. But when you say if they were 'saved', I believe the term should be 'enter the Kingdom'. They weren't promised 'salvation', they were promised entrance to the “Kingdom”. This is an earthly Kingdom, were they would have been a nation of “Priests” (Ex.19:3-6) with Christ their King, and ruled for 1000 years. At this time they would be ministering to the “Nations” (gentiles). But this did not happen, they rejected their “Messiah”, and God divorced them and turned to the Nations.
Now my understanding of the 'body of Christ', is those, Jews and/or gentiles, there is no difference in this present eon, that are chosen of God (Ro..8:30) the “ecclesia”, will be raptured, snatched away, when Christ calls them to “meet Him in the air” when the trumpet sounds. (1.Thess.4:13-18) This will be before the “great tribulation. Because God “did not appoint us (the ecclesia) to indignation, but to the procuring of salvation. (1.Thess.5:9) Christ does not return to earth at this time, but after the tribulation period, He will return to earth, and this is when the “New Covenant” will be made with Israel, (Heb.8:8-13) and the “kingdom” will be realised then.
I must admit, the sequence of this is not clear to me, you seem to have some interesting points, and you may be better informed than me on this. Your last statement holds much truth, I enjoy our exchange of understanding.God Bless.
Hi 942767 again, just a question, how do you manage to get the “quote” in to your posting, part at a time, when writing your post?
Thank you.
Quote (chosenone @ July 15 2008,16:27) Hi 942767 again, just a question, how do you manage to get the “quote” in to your posting, part at a time, when writing your post? Thank you.
Hi Jerry:Are you familiar with what is meant by copying a scripture and pasting it?
If you have copied something that you want to put between quotes you go to the top of the box where you see Quote Code Image Flash and left click on Quote. You then paste what you have copied after the quote and then click on quote again. This will put what you want to quote in a box.
Please let me know if this works for you or if you need additonal help and I will try to help.
God Bless
Ha.. Ha.. that's great my brother 942767,
I know that always you keep verses in the quotes but I like them as a part of my post in normal text.
What about your comments on what I posted earlier on Rom 11:26 ?
Thanks
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ July 16 2008,18:45) Ha.. Ha.. that's great my brother 942767,
I know that always you keep verses in the quotes but I like them as a part of my post in normal text.
What about your comments on what I posted earlier on Rom 11:26 ?
Thanks
Adam
Hi Adam:I am still not quite sure of what the Apostle Paul means by “the fullness of the gentiles”. If he means when the complete number of the gentiles come in, when exactly does that happen?
My understanding of the endtime events is that God will intervene against those coming against Christians and Jews at some point in time. The scriptures in Ezekiel (Ezekiel 37, 38, 39) list three nations by name and others with them who are coming against the Christian church, namely Iran, Lybia, and Ethiopia. If my understanding is correct, after God intervenes against those who were coming against the church and the Jews, there will be a period of peace. A treaty of 7 years signed with Israel's Enemys. At that point the temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt by Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. They are still looking for the Messiah to come. They will begin offering animal sacrifices, but will be stopped from this practice by the Anti-Christ:
Quote Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Quote Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.The two witness will prophesy 3 1/2 years in the sixth trumpet. This appears to coincide with the period of time from the time that the Anti-Christ stops the Jews from offering animal sacrifices until he sets himself up as God in the temple (the abomination of desolation).
“Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. “It is perhaps at this time that an abundance of the Jews will be saved. I do not believe that the Apostle Paul means that all of the Jewish nation will be saved. It would be nice, and I hope so. But all of Israel will be saved those who believe from the gentile nations and from the nation of Israel.
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