The Value of the Sacrifice

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ July 12 2008,16:32)

Hi 942767.
One must remeber, that “Hebrews” is written to Israel. See the begining of the first chapter. Now regarding your Quote:
Under the law, one who sinned “presumptuously” (Nu.15:30), or, as the Hebrew has it, “with a high hand”, was to be cut off from among his people, because he had despised the word of Jehovah and broken His commandment. The man who gathered sticks on the sabbath day was stoned to death (Nu.15:32-36). The voluntary sin here referred to is doubtless the repudiation of the truth and apostasy from the faith. The faith of the Hebrews, having been founded on the powers and signs which were given as a token of the near approach of the kingdom, was sorely tried when these signs ceased and the kingdom did not come. But those who drew back could not do so without reproaching God and trampling on the Son of God and inviting the fiery jealousy of Jehovah. For such there is no sin offering, since they refuse the only Sacrifice that is of any avail. They are calling down the vengeance of God.

How great is the contrast between these Hebrews and those who came under the ministry of Paul! Their faith did not fail for lack of evidence, because it was never founded on it (2Co.5:7). They come so completely under the dominion of grace, that persistence in sin would only increase the outflowing of favor (Ro.6:1). We are beyond the sphere of condemnation (Ro.8:1). The Hebrews were never introduced into such grace as this, for their destiny is the kingdom.

Blessings.

Hi Chosenone:

I believe that Nick has covered pretty much what I would say in response to this post.

However, you make the following comments, and I am not sure that I understand what you are saying:

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They come so completely under the dominion of grace, that persistence in sin would only increase the outflowing of favor (Ro.6:1). We are beyond the sphere of condemnation (Ro.8:1). The Hebrews were never introduced into such grace as this, for their destiny is the kingdom

The Apostle Paul states the following in the verses to which you refer:

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Rom 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

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Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

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Rom 8:12 ¶ Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Brother gollamudi addressed a question to you asking if any of the book of Hebrews applied to the gentiles, and I also would like to know what you believe about this?

July 13, 2008 at 12:33 am#97117

Participant

Hi 942767.
I'm not sure I understand what part you want me to explain. I'll try, but am not sure I will answer according to your question. The Jews, under the “law” and the “old Covenant”, would have entered the “Kingdom” if they were obediant, and fulfilled the law. This Kingdom is an earthy kingdom, the promised land, and would have reigned with their king (Jesus) for the millenium. But since they rejected their Messiah, and crucified Him, and still rejected Him when ressurrected, God has “thrust them away” (Acts.13:46) and turned to the “gentiles”. BUT… they (Israel) will once again be in favour with God when He makes a “New” covenant with them again. (See Heb8:8-12) and previously prophesied in Jer.31:31 (See both scriptures, they are the same).
The difference then was that the gentiles, in that era, were a'apart from God, see Eph.2:11-12. We had no part with God. Now, we are included, we are under a new covenant of “Grace”, saved by the grace of God. Works, and obedience to the law, do not save us. Only God will. “His achievement are we”. Eph.2:10.
I hope this answers your question. It is what I beleive, I am not infallible, prone to error as any human is, so take it as I see it.

To answer gollemudis' question. The book of Hebrews is addressed to them, it is about them. But, “All scripture is for us, but not all is about us.” This is very important in my opinion. Many believe that all scripture applies to us, this is not true, all scripture is for us to read, to understand Gods' dealings with Israel, for the “Messiah”, who was commissioned to them only (Matt.15:24). Timothy refers to this in 2Tim.2:15 “we must correctly cut the word of truth”. Again, “All scripture is FOR us, but not all scripture is ABOUT us”.

Blessings.

July 13, 2008 at 1:21 am#97126

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ July 13 2008,12:33)

Blessings.

Hi Chosenone:

What I asked you to explain is your comments relative to Romans 6:1 and Romans 8:1. I have quoted what you have said and then quoted the scriptures.

Also, I want to ask if the following scriptures in the book of Hebrews apply of us as gentiles:

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Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

And

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Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

July 13, 2008 at 2:18 am#97130

Participant

Hi brother Gene and Jerry,
Thanks you very much for your kind replies to my simple question. I now can get the purpose behind writing the book of Hebrews. Yes it is certainly meant for nation and people Israel. I can see from many verses in the book of Hebrews. yes you are right in saying that all scripture can not be applied to us directly. I also beieve that there is still a day in future when all of them will rest in God which will be a sabbatical rest for Israelites. I again believe that God is going to perform a new covenant with nation Israel unlike the one He did with their fore Fathers on Mount Sinai. He will be putting His Spirit in them and write His commandment on their hearts so that they will never again break His laws. This we can see from Paul's words in Romans 11 that God again turn His attention towards nation Israel when the fullness of Gentile has come, Israel will come to God in the end without them God's kingdom is not complete. All the promises of God to the nation of Israel will be fulfilled in Jesus when he comes again to establish a kingdom to the people of Israel on earth by sitting on the throne of David and by raising up the Taberacle of David once again.

Hi brother 942767, I think you can also understand from the verses you quoted from Hebrews that God certainly will turn His attention from Gentiles to the nation of Israel in future.
Peace to all
Adam

July 13, 2008 at 3:30 am#97143

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ July 13 2008,14:18)

Hi brother Gene and Jerry,
Thanks you very much for your kind replies to my simple question. I now can get the purpose behind writing the book of Hebrews. Yes it is certainly meant for nation and people Israel. I can see from many verses in the book of Hebrews. yes you are right in saying that all scripture can be applied to us directly. I also beieve that there is still a day in future when all of them will rest in God which will be a sabbatical rest for Israelites. I again believe that God is going to perform a new covenant with nation Israel unlike the one He did with their fore Fathers on Mount Sinai. He will be putting His Spirit in them and write His commandment on their hearts so that they will never again break His laws. This we can see from Paul's words in Romans 11 that God again turn His attention towards nation Israel when the fullness of Gentile has come, Israel will come to God in the end without them God's kingdom is not complete. All the promises of God to the nation of Israel will be fulfilled in Jesus when he comes again to establish a kingdom to the people of Israel on earth by sitting on the throne of David and by raising up the Taberacle of David once again.

Hi Brother gollamudi:

Jeremiah 31:31 is not another covenant that God will make with the Nation of Israel at sometime in the future but is the NT covenant that applies to all of the Israel of God both to the Israel which is of the Nation of Israel and to the Israel of God which is of the gentile nations.

The gospel was first preached to the tribes of Judah and Benjamin those who were the Nation of Israel when Jesus preached to them in his ministry while he was here on earth. The Apostle Peter and the Apostle Paul also preached to them as well. There were many who were saved from the nation of Israel.

When God had done every thing that he could do to save whoever believed of the nation of Israel, the gospel was to be preached to Samaria and then to all of the nations. There is not one gospel for the Jews and one for the nations. There is only one gospel for all nations.

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Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

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Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen

The nation of Israel exists as a nation again today and the gospel is being preached to them as a nation again in these latter days. All of the Israel of God will be saved both from the nations and from the nation of Israel.

Romans 11 states:

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Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles(I believe that “fulness” here means maturity of the Gentiles) be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved (Those who believe that Jesus is the Messiah will be saved): as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (This isn't a new covenant. This refers to the Deliverer coming to them from Sion to turn take away ungodliness from Jacob)
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

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Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

God Bless

July 13, 2008 at 4:34 am#97152

Participant

Hi 942767.
The new covenant described in Hebrews 8, has not yet been made.

And I shall be concluding with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant,
9 Not in accord with the covenant which I make with their fathers In the day of My taking hold of their hand To be leading them out of the land of Egypt, Seeing that they do not remain in My covenant, And I neglect them,” the Lord is saying,
10 “For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days,” the Lord is saying: “Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.
11 And by no means should each be teaching his fellow citizen, And each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord!' For all shall be acquainted with Me, From their little to their great,
12 For I shall be propitious to their injustices, And of their sins and their lawlessnesses should I under no circumstances still be reminded.”
13 In saying “new,” He has made the former old. Now that which is growing old and decrepit is near its disappearance.

Notice in verse 11 it says:
And by no means should each be teaching his fellow citizen, And each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord!' For all shall be acquainted with Me, From their little to their great,

As you can plainly see, all are not aquainted with God, that “no one should be teaching his brother”. This is still a future event.

Blessings.

July 13, 2008 at 1:36 pm#97171

Participant

Hi brother 942767,
I appreciate your response for my post, I was not meaning that another Gospel will be preached to nation Israel but the new covenant what God was promising to them has not yet taken place to them as a corporate Israel but in general Gospel preached to all the world. We can not ignore even Paul's words that the present fucus is on Gentile nations but not on nation Israel. Please see the post of our brother Chsenone above the new covenant is still a future there are many verses in Zecharia also which direct towards future fulfillment of God's promises to nation Israel.
Peace to you
Adam

July 13, 2008 at 6:54 pm#97195

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ July 13 2008,16:34)

Hi 942767.
The new covenant described in Hebrews 8, has not yet been made.

As you can plainly see, all are not aquainted with God, that “no one should be teaching his brother”. This is still a future event.

Blessings.

Hi Chosenone:

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Hbr 8:7 ¶ For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

I only see two covenants indicated here. Moses was the mediator between God and man in the first covenant, and Jesus is the mediator between God and man in the second.
Sorry, I don't see a third covenant.

God Bless

July 13, 2008 at 8:11 pm#97211

Participant

HI 942767.
The first covenanent was between God and Israel, not “mankind”, was given to the Jews though Moses. The covenant between God an the Nations and believing Jews, is the covenant of “grace”. Now, in the book of Hebrews, shows that God WILL make a second covenant with Israel, see Heb.8:8-12. These two covenants, the “first” is now obsolete, the “second”, (with Isreal) is still in the future. Actually, the scriptures refer to these two as the”old” and “new” covenants. These are with the “house of Israel and the house of Judah”, the Jews.
This is my understanding of scripture. Again, I am not infallible, prone to error as any human is, but as I see it.

God Bless, Jerry.

July 13, 2008 at 8:44 pm#97214

NickHassan

Participant

Hi,
The new covenant is our covenant.
The eternal gospel will be preached to them.
They will respond when they see the one they have pierced and mourn.

July 14, 2008 at 12:43 am#97264

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,08:44)

Hi,
The new covenant is our covenant.
The eternal gospel will be preached to them.
They will respond when they see the one they have pierced and mourn.

Rubbish! No scripture as usual.

July 14, 2008 at 1:24 am#97277

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ July 14 2008,08:11)

God Bless, Jerry.

Hi Chosenone:

Of course none of us are infallible, I have misunderstood scripture before and God has had to correct me, and I welcome correction because I do not teach anyone something that God is not saying.

But on this I will have to disagree with what you are teaching. I see only two covenants. The first was what we term as the Old covenant when Israel was under the Law and Moses was the mediator between God and men in the nation of Israel. The second covenant is the one where Jesus is the mediator between God and mankind. We are not under the Law but under grace, and the blood of our Lord Jesus cleanses us from all sin as we walk in obedience to his Word.
The gospel was preached first to the Jews by Jesus as I have heard you say many of time, and so, Jeremiah 31:31 applies to the Jews at this time and it applies to all nations after Jesus rose from the dead saying, “All power in heaven and earth has been given unto me, go ye therefore and teach 'ALL NATIONS'….TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU”.

The nation of Israel exists again as a nation in these latter days so that the gospel will be preached to them again as a nation as it was initially in the ministry of Jesus. The scripture in Romans 11 states that the deliverer will come from Zion (new Jerusalem which is the church) to turn ungodliness from Jacob. It is not a not another covenant with them, but they who believe and are saved will be grafted back in to tree of life. Paul says “life from the dead”. Those Jews who did not believe in the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles Peter and Paul, were cut off because unbelief, but even then Paul was indicating that if they were provoked by those of the gentile nations who were saved through the love they manifested in obedience to the Lord into believing the gospel, it would be life from the dead. And so, the Jews were not abandoned for 2000 years and remembered again in these last days. They were supposed to be drawn to the body of Christ through the love of the Christians, but we know that they were actually persecuted by those who called themselves Christians. All of Israel of God will be saved. The Israel of God from the nation of Israel when it existed as a nation during Jesus and the Apostles ministry, the Israel of God from the nations, and the Israel of God from the nation of Israel that exists as a nation in these latter days since 1948.

God Bless

July 14, 2008 at 1:29 am#97282

Participant

Hi:

I want to add that those in the OT who were faithful will also be saved.

God Bless

July 14, 2008 at 1:44 am#97289

Participant

Hi brother 942767,
You are still assuming many things by saying that the Nation of Israel is equated with Israel of God. This is not correct always. God keeps Nation Israel a separate entity till the end but will be merged with all the Gentile believers in the end when we receive our rewards in the kingdom of God. Paul is right in saying now they (Nation Israel) are deviated from grace. Please see Rom 11:
8 just as it is written,
“(M)GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
25 For (AL)I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (AM)mystery–so that you will not be (AN)wise in your own estimation–that a partial (AO)hardening has happened to Israel until the (AP)fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“(AQ)THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27 “(AR)THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(AS)WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”

You can see from the above scriptures that Nation Israel is separate entity in God's kingdom now the attention is focussed on us the Gentiles but God is not leaving His chosen people Israel at all. He will turn back His attention again in the end but it is still not yet fulfilled it will be fulfilled when Jesus comes back again to this earth and he will remove ungodliness from them in one day they will come to him and all of Israel will be saved. There are many other prophesies available in the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Please read and realise that Israel will hear Gospel in future not now as Nation.
Thanks
Adam

July 14, 2008 at 2:05 am#97294

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ July 14 2008,13:44)

Hi Adam:

I am aware of all that you are saying. Apparently, you are not reading or are misunderstanding what I am saying. Are we who are saved of the nations the Israel of God or not?

The Apostle Paul states:

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Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The Israel of God is the whole body of Christ. That nation that is called Israel, that is the Jews, is symbolic. Not all those of that symbolic nation of Israel are the Israel of God only those who will believe. As I have said, they do exist as a nation in these latter days so that the gospel can be preached to them again as a nation as it was preached to them first as a nation in the ministry of our Lord Jesus and that of the Apostles.

God Bless

July 14, 2008 at 2:13 am#97296

Participant

So what about the verses I quoted above is it present or future?
Do you think the fullness of Gentiles has come now?
Has the attention of God changed to Nation Israel?
No my brother it is still in future I believe when the deliverer Jesus comes again to his people Israel. We are certainly members of Israel of God called Gentiles. But God has kept Nation Israel a separate entity so far they will be merged with us in future it has not happened yet.
Please think over.
Adam

July 14, 2008 at 2:24 am#97303

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ July 14 2008,14:13)

There are many Jews who are being saved at this very moment. There are some who are tel-evangelists.

What exactly, the Apostle Paul means by the fulness of the gentile is not clear to me. I have given my opinion that it may mean the maturity of the gentiles rather than all of the gentiles who will be saved, but I do not know if this accurate or not.

July 14, 2008 at 2:27 am#97305

Participant

Hi Adam:

Have you heard of those who call themselves “Jews for Jesus”? There are many messianic congregations today both in Israel and in the United States.

July 14, 2008 at 2:40 am#97309

Participant

Thanks for your open mind in receiving truth my brother. Paul is talking about numbers not any maturity of Gentiles, it will be completed in future. God will save His chosen people Israel as He has saved us even when we are not His people at all.

Please see the verses in Rom 9:
24 even us, whom He also (AV)called, (AW)not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

25 As He says also in Hosea,
“(AX)I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'”
26 “(AY)AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF (AZ)THE LIVING GOD.”

30 (BH)What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even (BI)the righteousness which is by faith;

31 but Israel, (BJ)pursuing a law of righteousness, did not (BK)arrive at that law.

32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over (BL)the stumbling stone,

33 just as it is written,
“(BM)BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION (BN)A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
(BO)AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM (BP)WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

Their disobedience has given us grace of God at present but God will not leave natuaral Israel, otherwise all His promises to His people will be null and void. He will certainly change His focus from us to them (Israel) as per Paul's words in Rom 11.

We have to praise God as He showed us mercy and grace to be called His children.
Blessings
Adam

July 14, 2008 at 2:41 am#97310