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I want to pull this outside of any Trinity talk. I just wanted to see what people's thoughts are on what made the death of Yeshua the ultimate and final sacrifice for sin.
Here are my thoughts:
If Yeshua is eternal, and if he is God, what real value is there in his death? It was not a final death as we know, he was resurrected and ascended to the Father.
If we place 33 years along side of eternity, what does it mean? What would it mean to temporarily lay aside privileges and die a human death, to only get all privileges back?
Think about all sacrifices before Yeshua. Each one resulted in the permanent loss of life. None of the sacrificed animals was resurrected. Its life was gone forever.
Now enter Yeshua. He laid aside his privileges to walk among us as a man. He faced the same temptations we faced. But he did it for only 33 years. And then he died. But wait, he was resurrected! So he only stayed dead for 3 days. 3 days versus forever for all prior sacrifices. 33 years as bond-servant, to return to all prior glory.
Lazarus was dead for 3 days. The only value in his death was that God received glory for restoring His life through Yeshua.
I do not mean to cheapen the death on the cross. It is our everything. But by assuming that 33 years and 1 death in the face of eternity is to truly cheapen the value of the sacrifice. It is not a real sacrifice. It is an inconvenience.
But what if instead, Yeshua laid aside many privileges FOREVER? That is true sacrifice. That would be true love. To die to what one was to attain something new, something different. Perhaps that is the true death. Not just the death on the cross, but the death of what he was.
Yeshua taught us the value of sacrifice
Matthew 16:25 -“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”
Luke 14:33 – “So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.”
John 15:13 – “Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
Yeshua had it all. But he laid it all aside because he loves us. If he ascended to the Father with all of the power and privileges of God, what is the value?
33 years of inconvenience in the face of eternity is not a sacrifice.
Hi kj,
Jn 12
” 23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. “
He gave up his own life and spirit to be given a share of the life giving Spirit of the Father.
Nick,
The big difference comes in establishing in what form he existed before his humanity. If his first actual existence was on earth, then the sacrifice is real and a model for what we will have one day. He died for our sins and inherited eternal life for the action. We die to our sins and inherit eternal life. The symbolism of baptism reflects this.
Since he died in our place, he deserves the honor at the right hand of the Father.
But if he existed, truly existed as a sentient being, before earth, this is what “cheapens” the sacrifice IMO. It would mean only a temporary reduction of himself to return to it once more.
I think that is why it is important for me to formulate what Yeshua was before the birth at Bethlehem. If earth was not his first conscious existence, I will struggle with the value of the sacrifice but accept it nonetheless. If earth was the first place he actually lived as a sentient being, then the sacrifice becomes ultimate. Yes, others died as martyrs but none were the Son nor were they overcomers.
Nick,
Not if the sentient being existed before for eternity and then returned back to eternity in full restoration of all that was before. Then it becomes much less of a sacrifice. Even if we measure it our years, lets compare 33 years to 6000 of biblical time. It would be akin to use spending 144 days (for a life of 72 years) in a dramatically lowered state and then dying, but being resuscitated. After our resuscitation, we are fully restored to our former life. Rough and life changing, for sure, but we could get over it.But is the only conscious life you knew was 33 years as a human, and you were put to death and bore the weight of the worlds sins, the sacrifice would be ultimate.
Perhaps just a human failing I have in this.
Hi KJ,
The monogenes Son was not eternal. He was a son as were the other sons present at the laying of the foundation of the earth[Jb38] He was the most important under God being an instrument for all creation. He had more to lose than any being under God. Yet he consented to come as a puny earthly, ignorant and weak man.What a great topic!
I have often thought, as I am conversing with Nick/t8 about preexistence – what was the sacrifice of a spirit-son who had been with the Father already, and who had known glory but decided to “empty” himself and become a commoner (for a period of time), and then go back up to his former glory? Sacrifice? Hmmmmmm
IMO – Jesus gave up his life. My children have asked me, “Mommy, why do people have to die?” And something I once heard provided the quick answer, I said, “To make life more special.”
A true sacrifice is that Jesus gave up his life. His life. What could his LIFE have looked like if he didn't go to the cross? Could Jesus have done any of the following:
1. Get married
2. Move out of Nazareth and buy a house in the burbs
3. Have children
4. Die a “normal” deathIf not, his “life” was not the sacrifice. So, what was the sacrifice?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2007,15:44) Hi not3,
Risking everything including his own life on the basis of faith in a promise.
For your Jesus there was no risk.Remember……he agreed to come. I'm sure that during the meeting where he agreed to come – victory was assured. He knew he would be *returning* to the glory *which he had* right?
God succeeds in all his missions.
Hi not3,
Can you put yourself in his shoes?
Did your Jesus suddenly find himself a man appointed to die
with no choice but to face his appointed destiny?[My] Jesus did find himself appointed to die.
Except…….he had a choice!
That choice is what makes his giving up his life a SACRIFICE.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2007,17:04) Hi not3,
Faith says so.
How strong is your faith?
What do you mean?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2007,12:49) Hi KJ,
The monogenes Son was not eternal. He was a son as were the other sons present at the laying of the foundation of the earth[Jb38] He was the most important under God being an instrument for all creation. He had more to lose than any being under God. Yet he consented to come as a puny earthly, ignorant and weak man.
How can a “puny, earthly, ignorant and weak man” have inherited “perfect, new genes from God”? Both quotes are your words.If I inherited perfect genes from God…..my goodnes the skin and hair I would have! I certainly wouldn't be ignorant! That is really an insult to the Father, Nick. You may not see it that way, but think of it this way, if someone insulted the intelligence of your child – would you take it personally?
Jesus may have not known some things, but was he ignorant [lacking knowledge, stupid, unaware]? Certainly not! And puny? Remember he was a Carpenter's son….I've never known a “puny” Carpenter, myself. Ha!
Again, some of us tend to make too much of Jesus, and some tend to not make enough of Jesus. There is a middle ground, I believe.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 16 2007,19:04) I've never known a “puny” Carpenter, myself. Ha!
Karen Carpenter was pretty puny before she died
Quote (kejonn @ July 17 2007,11:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 16 2007,19:04) I've never known a “puny” Carpenter, myself. Ha!
Karen Carpenter was pretty puny before she died
Careful your showing your age! Hi not3
You say
“How can a “puny, earthly, ignorant and weak man” have inherited “perfect, new genes from God”? Both quotes are your words.If I inherited perfect genes from God…..my goodnes the skin and hair I would have! I certainly wouldn't be ignorant! That is really an insult to the Father, Nick. You may not see it that way, but think of it this way, if someone insulted the intelligence of your child – would you take it personally?
Jesus may have not known some things, but was he ignorant [lacking knowledge, stupid, unaware]? Certainly not! And puny? “
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A NEWBORN BABY THAT WAS NOT PUNY
AND IGNORANT AND UTTERLY DEPENDANT?Christ was an infant who grew in wisdom and grace by the parenting and encoragement of his real Dad.
Then when he was adult he was empowered from on high.
The rest is history.
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