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Hi reality,
Take all the time you need. It is great to find someone who is interested in going deeper here as Revelation is a fascinating mixture of allegories and actual events and we need to search it with the light of the Spirit to suss it all out. I take one step forward and two back at times struggling with it.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 18 2005,00:22) Hi,
The witnesses are called “lampstands” and as trettep has pointed out, these are identified as churches in Rev 1.20
” ..and the seven lampstands are the seven churches”The letters to the churches are in fact addressed to the angels of those churches.
Rev 2.5 says
” Remember, therefore, from where you have fallen and repent and do the deeds you did at first. Or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of it's place unless you repent”So the threat here is to the angel responsible for the church and it threatens to take the church from it's place? What does this mean?
Hi,The entire concept of 'churches' being referenced here is a huge problem for me.
I just finished reading an extrordinary post by T8 in the thread called, 'Physical Fellowship'. I couldn't agree with it more – especially the part that describes 'churches' as denominations. I see them as corporations in most cases.
Anyway, they can hardly be what Messiah intended in his conversations during his last days on earth. He mentioned that in the synagogues or tabernacles that men have power of other men, but that it should not be so with 'us' (meaning his spiritual body, I think).
The whole notion of churches, as we know them, came into being many years after Messiah spoke. But in any event, at his death the veil was rent from top to bottom which had, up to this point, separated Jew from Gentile and kept the Holy of Holies to only a few and then only on certain days (Atonement).
This all makes the wording about the 7 'churches' in Revelations all the more difficult for me to grasp.
Reality
Sure Reality,
“assemblies” may be better. They met in one another's houses at the beginning and in my view that is still a valid expression of the Body of Christ.
Peter wanted to build buildings on the mountain after the transfiguration. That idea has continued but that expresses only our faith in our human leadership and their predecessorsQuote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2005,05:55) Sure Reality,
“assemblies” may be better. They met in one another's houses at the beginning and in my view that is still a valid expression of the Body of Christ.
Peter wanted to build buildings on the mountain after the transfiguration. That idea has continued but that expresses only our faith in our human leadership and their predecessors
Hi Nick,Here I am with another nit-picky problem.
I do agree that assemblies is an accurate term for the physical group who followed Messiah's Way after he left this earth. There is also a good example of these individuals as being the composition of 'the body'.
These could also be termed the 'spiritual temple', I think. The problem for me arises when I attempt to use this analogy in areas of prophetic writing that we suppose is meant for us (the temple, the body, the ecclesia etc.). According to what I can understand about this body of believers, The Father knows those who are His.
Is it even up to us to define who is or is not a member of this invisible (to us) group? That makes many glitches in applying prophecy.
I shall continue to read the older messages here and see if this may have been discussed elsewhere.
Thank you,
Reality
Hi R,
The view from heaven differs from man's view. Few want to seek and so few will find. The door is open but few find it.
Few lepers were healed in the time of Elisha.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2005,19:56) Hi R,
The view from heaven differs from man's view. Few want to seek and so few will find. The door is open but few find it.
Few lepers were healed in the time of Elisha.
Hi again,But this is exactly the point I am trying to make. If the view from Heaven is different from ours, how can we apply the prophecy? I mean how can we determine which are the candlesticks, lampstands, witnesses, olive trees?
Not trying to be difficult, just cannot seem to understand these, yet, but hope it will come.
Thank you for trying.
Reality
Hi reality,
I think we can work from the symbols to some degree.
Oil-anointing -Spirit.
Light-Messiah-message-truth.
Source of oil. Source of light.
Lampstands-holders of lamps which give light.
Candlesticks are not light but needed for light to be shown.
Hope the principle helps.
Witnesses see and give evidence.It seems to me that the ministries of Moses and Elijah fit the description of these two witnesses quite well…
Also the fact that it was Moses and Elijah that were seen on the mountain with Jesus when he was transfigured before James, Peter and John…
Whether of not it was the actual prophets or just men with the same spirit – like Elisha to Elijah I can only speculate.Also there has been some discussion on this thread as to the period 3 and a half years.
Half of the last week of 70 determined to Israel in the which Messiah was cut off from the people, but not for Himself? (for the sins of the world)
There are other places in the book of Revelation that support this time period…
Time, times and half a time. (3 and a hlaf) Rev 12:14 which links to Dan 12:7
1260 days Rev 11:3 – using the prophetic year if you use 30 days to a month
then 1 year = 360 days.
Using this system to measur 1260 days you get exactly 3 and a half years…Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 10 2006,04:54) It seems to me that the ministries of Moses and Elijah fit the description of these two witnesses quite well…
Also the fact that it was Moses and Elijah that were seen on the mountain with Jesus when he was transfigured before James, Peter and John…
Whether of not it was the actual prophets or just men with the same spirit – like Elisha to Elijah I can only speculate.Also there has been some discussion on this thread as to the period 3 and a half years.
Half of the last week of 70 determined to Israel in the which Messiah was cut off from the people, but not for Himself? (for the sins of the world)
There are other places in the book of Revelation that support this time period…
Time, times and half a time. (3 and a hlaf) Rev 12:14 which links to Dan 12:7
1260 days Rev 11:3 – using the prophetic year if you use 30 days to a month
then 1 year = 360 days.
Using this system to measur 1260 days you get exactly 3 and a half years…
Hi malcolm,
Why do you say men?
They prophesy and give testimony. What is there to prophesy about at the end of life as we know it for 31/2 years??How are they lampstands and olive trees?How does fire come out of their mouths to devour enemies?Hi Malcolm,
NIV has wrongly translated 'witnesses' as 'men'.The Spirit, the water,the blood are all shown as witnesses in 1Jn 5.7-8,
God, the Word itself, angels, even the Sun and moon [Ps 89.36f]too.That is why I ask for more of an openminded approach from all to the true spiritual meaning.
I don't know what you mean by “the end of life as we know it ” It says of this time that there is great tribulation upon the earth such as has never been, yet we see a remnant is saved at this time. These 2 witnesses would not be witnesses if they had no-one to witness to.
When their bodies (these 2 witnesses) lie in the streets it says the kings of the earth send gifts to each other, so there is still life at this time as far as I can see.
How are they lampstands?
Lampstands – bringing the same light that the lampstand in rev 2-3 brought through the ages to the church – i.e. the gospel which they rejected…
I believe this is when the last half of the seventieth week for Israel takes place.
It was cut short in the middle when Messiah was crucified. But there is still 3 and a half years determined for Daniel's people (Israel after the flesh) ZECHARIAH 13:6 – Romans 11:25-26.
and olive trees?
Olive trees – oil comes from them – holy spirit… same Spirit that flowed through seven phases of light in the lampstand, coming from the Law and the Prophets. For Jesus never did away with them – he fulfilled them. Same one oil – Olive oil. Not 2 spirits. Not 7 spirits – not 9 spirits…
PSALMS 1:3
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Notice rivers (plural) of water (singular). Streams of the one water of life, flowing from one source.
How does fire come out of their mouths to devour enemies?
Fire out of their mouths – our God is a consuming fire – the word they rejected will burn them in judgements now. Out of the mouths = prophecy – the word spoken, even as a sharp 2 edged sword came out of Jesus mouth in Rev 2-3
Why are they men? God uses men to witness to men.
Amos 3:7 says God uses prophets – that's what the people wanted when God came down on the mountain as a fire, they said don't let God talk to us like this or we will be consumed by fire – let Moses speak instead and we will hear. Moses spoke, they refused and Moses warned them “our God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God” Moses' words were Gods words and that is how they were fire from his mouth. DEUTERONOMY 5:25-8
Also in ZECHARIAH 7:12-13 says when they hardened their hearts to the Law and the prophets wrath followed. So now it is the world's turn – who has had the gospel for 2000 years…
Just my opinion for what it is worth…Quote (trettep @ Mar. 18 2005,23:05) Read my document I posted under the Seven Churches thread. It will give you a start. Paul
where is this thread?Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 11 2006,00:34) I don't know what you mean by “the end of life as we know it ” It says of this time that there is great tribulation upon the earth such as has never been, yet we see a remnant is saved at this time. These 2 witnesses would not be witnesses if they had no-one to witness to.
When their bodies (these 2 witnesses) lie in the streets it says the kings of the earth send gifts to each other, so there is still life at this time as far as I can see.
How are they lampstands?
Lampstands – bringing the same light that the lampstand in rev 2-3 brought through the ages to the church – i.e. the gospel which they rejected…
I believe this is when the last half of the seventieth week for Israel takes place.
It was cut short in the middle when Messiah was crucified. But there is still 3 and a half years determined for Daniel's people (Israel after the flesh) ZECHARIAH 13:6 – Romans 11:25-26.
and olive trees?
Olive trees – oil comes from them – holy spirit… same Spirit that flowed through seven phases of light in the lampstand, coming from the Law and the Prophets. For Jesus never did away with them – he fulfilled them. Same one oil – Olive oil. Not 2 spirits. Not 7 spirits – not 9 spirits…
PSALMS 1:3
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Notice rivers (plural) of water (singular). Streams of the one water of life, flowing from one source.
How does fire come out of their mouths to devour enemies?
Fire out of their mouths – our God is a consuming fire – the word they rejected will burn them in judgements now. Out of the mouths = prophecy – the word spoken, even as a sharp 2 edged sword came out of Jesus mouth in Rev 2-3
Why are they men? God uses men to witness to men.
Amos 3:7 says God uses prophets – that's what the people wanted when God came down on the mountain as a fire, they said don't let God talk to us like this or we will be consumed by fire – let Moses speak instead and we will hear. Moses spoke, they refused and Moses warned them “our God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God” Moses' words were Gods words and that is how they were fire from his mouth. DEUTERONOMY 5:25-8
Also in ZECHARIAH 7:12-13 says when they hardened their hearts to the Law and the prophets wrath followed. So now it is the world's turn – who has had the gospel for 2000 years…
Just my opinion for what it is worth…
Hi Malcolm,
Witness has two meanings.
It can mean an observer or a testifier.But he who observes a car accident is not necessarily called to give evidence in court as to what he has seen.children witness the behavior of their parents and learn from it.
To witness also is to tell others of what we know rather more as in a court situation.
What does it mean here?
That's the question isn't it.
Also I agree with what you say about witnesses.
After all we are His witnesses on earth…
Are you thinking of the words of Jesus when he entered Jerusalem? (Luke 19:40)Hi Malcolm,
These witnesses are not said to witness but to prophesy.
Do two men now stand as lampstands before the Lord of the earth?
Who is the lord of the earth?I can only say what I see, I certainly don't see everything.
But in answer to the question who is the Lord of the earth.
The earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof.
God made it God owns it. Yet Jesus our Lord sits for 1000 years as king of it with us.
I believe God is still owner of it even then, still Lord of it.
The head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.
So you can answer Jesus, or you can answer God…
Either way when you see Jesus on the mountain transfigured, who do you see standing before him?…
2 prophets Moses and Elijah.Hi Malcolm,
The two witnesses lie dead on the street for 3 1\2 days. That is an obvious allegory for 3 1\2 years or half the tribulation surely as this number only occurs in this regard in scripture. Now do two men lie in the street of a city [whose name is not clear] for that length of time or is it an allegory about the tribulation?So what are you saying they witness and prophecy for 3 and a half years. And at the same time they lie dead, a dead man can neither speak to witness or prophecy. Their dead bodies could be a witness I suppose, but of what??
And how do they perform the things spoken of them if they are dead. Surely God's Word does not return to Him empty and fruitless but achieves the goal it set forth to accomplish…
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