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If they are not Enoch and Elijah then they will have to come back and die at some point before the judgement, for it is appointed once to die. The Judgement for believers is before the Sabbath.
Although Paul states that we won't all die but we will all be changed!
Hi Rudy,
Yes not all die. Those in Christ have already died. That must include Elijah surely?
So the judgement is before the sabbath? If the sabbath rest is the millenium [Heb 4]then the tribunal of Christ [2Cor 5.10f, Matt 25.14f]is just before the millenium-I would have thought so if they sit on thrones as judges during the millenium?Hi t8,
If you agree that the work done through Elijah was the work of the Spirit then the importance of Elijah, the person, surely fades away into the background. This work could be done through anyone, or many people?The verses about no rain or fire coming down may just reflect ,in allegory, the eventual fate during the wrath of God for those who do not receive the message, rather than any immediate retribution surely.
Hi Nick,
They are called witnesses because they bring judgement to the people.
Deuteronomy 17:6
On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.Matthew 18:16
But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.2 Corinthians 13:1
This will be my third visit to you. “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”1 Timothy 5:19
Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.Hebrews 10:28
Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.Revelation 11:3
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”To Nick,
You say that both witnesses have all the attributes. But it does seem uncannily similar to both the attributes and actions of these men. If they are 2 men at all, then you would have to assume that they are in unity of Spirit. So together they could do those things by God's ordination. When we are one we tend to share the things that God has given us.
In addition to that I see a pattern in the scriptures whereby great men or great ministries were often passed on. We see that with Elijah, Elisha and possibly John the Baptist. The Apostles disciples often became apostles themselves. Even prophets ordain prophets etc.
It seems to me that when a man is willing to let God do great things though him, that often God wants another to take that mantle when he passes on, rather than let it die with the man.
Now I feel that the view that both men are Elijah and Moses is strengthened not only by the similar attributes of fire coming down from heaven and water turning to blood, but the fact that both these men appeared with God to either side of Christ in the transfiguration. Of all men that could have appeared with God present, it was those two. It wasn't Enoch and nor was it one of the other prophets.
So it seems to me that these 2 men are chosen and given great honour. To me the following verse fits these two well:
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Of course I am not saying I am right, but I put this forward as a possibility, even if it is an obvious one. The scripture says that they are 2 men, so I need good reason to believe otherwise or that it is symbolic. I haven't seen a good reason yet.
Hi t8,
Witnesses in courts give evidence of the past to either convict or exonerate.But these witnesses prophesy, so they reveal the future.
They are dressed in sackcloth indicating their repentance.
Prophets normally preach and warn of future events so that others repent.
These, if they are individuals, seem to have a message for a small locality. But their possible powers affect the whole earth whose inhabitants with different tongues and including some with access to none or minimal 'technology' would not surely hear that message. Would they also be punished for the sake of the few?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 09 2005,21:17) Fair enough t8,
So they are not offering hope but judgement?
I guess that they may be offering hope, but as we know the people will not repent, so they receive judgment, even through these 2 witnessess.It says that they tormented those on the earth and the people give presents to one another when they are dead.
I think that their most powerful witness is the resurrection, as great fear fell on those who saw them rise.
Sure t8,
But we cause misery too to those who are accused by the Spirit in us even without us opening our mouths. We too will all be resurrected or raptured and many on earth will feel happy to be rid of us.Yes we do and we represent Christ and his God. But these 2 stand before God perhaps in a similar way that archangels stand before God. So if their ministry is similar to ours then does that strengthen the position that they are men like us?
Perhaps they are like us, just as archangels are angels? 'Archmen' so to speak.
I should add that 'witnessess' have a testimony. That's what witnesses do. They testify. We see the same thing in a court. They testify of what they have seen or what they have been told.
True t8,
And the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. So are they giving testimony and preaching?It is Prophecy!
They're ministry is to proclaim on earth what is happening in Heaven, the breaking of the seals. Look at the length of their ministry, and the parallel to what they do to the Trumpets 1-6. They prophesy the judgements as Jesus breaks the seals. The men of earth will blame them directly for the plagues not willing to accept their word that the judgements are for their sin from God.
They will make every effort to kill them but will be unable due to the power of God in their words. When they finally are killed, it will be for a testament, believing they have gained the victory over the Lamb through the power of the beast. All earth will rejoice believing the judgements to have ended because they are dead. All news cameras will be focused on them (similar to the coverage of the popes death) but will recoil in horror as the power of God resurrects them on live tv.
Rev 11:12
Interesting take Rudy. I pretty much see it that way too, but am open to it being a parable for something else too. However I never made a connection with the breaking of the seals and their prophecy. They tormented those on the earth and it could be at the same time as opening of the seals or pouring out of the bowls.
Hi Rudy,
We have the power of God as the sword of the Spirit in our words too but we can be killed?I do not think God is depending on television technology to fulfill His plan.
Do you agree it is Satan who “kills” the witnesses?
Why do they lie dead on the streets for 3 and a half days?
What streets? Jerusalem or Sodom or Egypt? Or could they symbolise the enemies of faith -the world, the flesh and false religion?
James 3: 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell…
…8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.We all operate according to the gift given us by God, we are not our own, He works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Their ministry is the first half of the tribulation. Seals 1-7 and Trumpets 1-6. This brings us to the middle of the Tribulation and the abomonation of desolation!
Satan kills them through the Beast.
They will be killed Rev. 11:8 “where our Lord was crucified”, Jerusalem. The Beast will set his image up in the Temple claiming to be God. The witnesses will be claiming otherwise so when they are killed the whole world (almost) will be deceived and think that the beast is the Almighty.
Quote (t8 @ April 10 2005,09:21) Interesting take Rudy. I pretty much see it that way too, but am open to it being a parable for something else too. However I never made a connection with the breaking of the seals and their prophecy. They tormented those on the earth and it could be at the same time as opening of the seals or pouring out of the bowls.
The bowl judgements are after the witnesses are martyred.Compare the terminology in Rev. 11:12 (resurrection of the witnesses),
To the resurrection of the dead in Christ and rapture of “those who are alive and remain” Rev. 4:1 & 1 Thessolonians 4:17
Quote (Rudy @ April 10 2005,12:36) James 3: 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell…
…8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.We all operate according to the gift given us by God, we are not our own, He works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Their ministry is the first half of the tribulation. Seals 1-7 and Trumpets 1-6. This brings us to the middle of the Tribulation and the abomonation of desolation!
Satan kills them through the Beast.
They will be killed Rev. 11:8 “where our Lord was crucified”, Jerusalem. The Beast will set his image up in the Temple claiming to be God. The witnesses will be claiming otherwise so when they are killed the whole world (almost) will be deceived and think that the beast is the Almighty.
Thank you,
So the death of the witnesses is mid trib and there are 3 and a half years[DAYs] left?Hi ,
Ok my updated view is;
The two witnesses represent the worldwide evangelisation spoken of by Jesus and done through the living church.
The first resurrection and the rapture takes the life out of the church. It is mid trib and associated with the revelation of the beast, who is satan incarnate.
The dead church remains on earth and survives the rest of the tribulation for 3 and a half years. Then the Spirit is poured out as in Joel 2 and the remainder of the church revives and the second resurrection occurs.
I guess this will meet with the usual enthusiasm but I would not be doing my job if I did not throw it in the mix.
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