The two witnesses of revelation

[trettep]

Two answer the second part of your question, I don't know enough at this point but have a good idea but because I haven't studied it further I wont comment.

Paul

[Proclaimer]

Revelation 11:6-12
6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.
10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

They seem as men to me as they have the following attributes:

[Proclaimer]

Hi Nick,

9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.
10…
11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.

Notice that all can gaze upon their bodies, but not all saw them rise. I think Television is a good possibilty.

I do think that the literal interpretation is reasonable. The language uses words like 'men', 'bodies', 'raised from the dead' and creates quite a clear picture that is not hard to grasp. It's seems like a clear story and future event.

I get the feeling that you have a wider teaching that changes the literal meaning to fit that teaching's theology. Is this true? Normally you take the obvious interpretation first unless it contradicts truth, but here you have appeared to do the opposite.

Of course it could well be symbolic too and if it were then it would be so that the understanding of it were hid until a such time that God would reveal it. That is why we have parables and symbols, so that the wicked will not understand, but only those who seek the truth.

I will follow the conversation to see where it leads, but I think that the literal view should remain a strong possibility as it does appear to be quite clear and logical.

Often symbolic language doesn't make much sense when taken literally such as: “The Dragon waited for the woman to give birth to devour her child”. But the 2 witnesses can be understood clearly when taken literally.

Are there other symbolic scriptures where the literal interpretation is clear and logical too?

[NickHassan]

No t8,
I have never heard any teaching on the line I am exploring. Almost everyone says what you are saying and skips over the inconsistencies[no offence bro]. My approach here I would hope was exactly the same as with other scripture to interrogate every word and make it talk. All are put there for a reason and none are superfluous.

I love [and hate] Revelation because it is so like a cryptic crossword to me. It is so concentrated and diverse in idiom that I feel very challenged by it-as with Daniel. It is like entering another world or swimming in the sea or reading Alice in Wonderland because often what is obvious really isn't yet you can miss the obvious too if you are not careful.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
As far as hidden meanings in scripture go Daniel speaks of them in Dan 12.4 and and 12.9.
But Dan 12.10 and 3 says
“…but those who have insight will understand” and will “shine brightly like the expanse of heaven, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever”

We are not in the dark like those of the world and should be able to find what is hidden from them surely?

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
Rev 11.5f
” And if anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies;and if any one would desire to harm them, in this manner he must be killed.
These have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire”

Now why is it that fire comes out of their mouth[singular]to destroy their enemies and yet in the next part of the verse other forms of death must occur according to the planned harm. Why does one kind of death possibly take several forms?

What they have power to do scripture tells us happens-no rain and water to blood and plagues on the earth. So did they really have that choice or were they simply fulfilling scripture? Men have true choices,even men of God.

[NickHassan]

hi,
Rev 11.7
” and when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them and overcome them and kill them”

Now they are not said to be prophesying here but giving testimony and that is different although scripture says “the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy” [rev 19.10]Could that mean they were preaching the gospel after all?

Is this really the fulfillment of the prophecy of Jesus in Matt 24.14?

” And the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached to the whole world for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end shall come”

That is not shown anywhere else in Revelation is it and even if it was this may be another idiom for it?

If so these two may represent many more than two.

Now the one who comes up from the abyss is Satan[Rev 20 2 and 7. But he is never referred to as a beast elsewhere in scripture. He is a serpent but not a beast. The beasts in Revelation are men or kindoms.The beast is incarnated by Satan but is a man. So they are combined and seen as one here.

It just aint that simple.

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
Rev 11.9″ And those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for 3 days and a half, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb”

Why not just say ” all the nations”?
Why are they not permitted by all these groups in agreement to be laid in a tomb?
Why say “a tomb”[singular]
Why is burial not mentioned?

3 1\2 days seems tantalisingly like the 3 1\2 years of Dan 12.7 where the “power of the holy people”[?faith] is “shattered” before the end comes.

[NickHassan]

Hi Rev 11.11
” and after the 3 1\2 days the breath of life from God came into them and they stood on their feet;and great fear fell upon those who were beholding them, and they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them
'Come up here'
And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them”

Surely this is a resurrection. Does it involve just two as no other place in scripture specifies a special resurrection of two people? Could it, in fact, be the first resurrection of all the saved? Some may yet be alive but all have died in Christ.

[NickHassan]

Hi Rev 11.15
The 7th angel sounded [the 7th and last trumpet]; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying
'The kingdom of the Lord has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ;and he will reign forever and ever”

So the timing in relationship to the beginning of the millenium is right-following the ?first resurrection.The kingdom of Christ HAS begun on earth.

God is Lord of heaven and earth  and the Son begins his reign at the sound of the last trumpet[1Cor15.52,1thess 4.16].

[NickHassan]

So overall I feel it is an idiom about the tribulation. I think it unlikely to relate to two individuals and neither do the sun and moon fit well.

I think it relates to two expressions of the work of God on earth for 3 and a half years in witnessing worldwide to the power of God and warning others about the times to come, then the second half of the tribulation before the return of Christ and the first resurrection.

Possibly the Word and the Spirit, or Israel and the Church.

But I could be wrong and would welcome correction or enlargement.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Israel and the church will not fit as only the body of Christ has the true gospel to preach.

trettep's thought of two true assemblies remains a strong possibility too.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
If Rev 11 3-15 is a thumbnail sketch of the seven year tribulation showing the work of the church during that time, as my thoughts currently lead me to believe, then what could it mean when the witnesses “Die” and lie in the streets exposed to the view of the world?

They are still present but inactive and ineffective perhaps like the Laodicean church?

Or could it relate to

“However,when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”[Lk 18.8]?

or does it relate to 2Thess 2.6-7

“And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work;only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way”

Who knows?

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
Now if we extend the idiom of 3 and a half years [half tribulation]into the next chapter we see it again as 1260 days in verse 6 and Time,times and half a time in verse 14. So this chapter is concurrent with the two parts of the tribulation shown in Chapter 11. That means we may be able to compare them and gain more understanding.
Chapter 12 5-17 seems to relate to Israel [woman] and Jesus and the church[child]
Verse 10 sounds like 11.15.and verse 11 again mentions the “testimony”
Who can add?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2005,17:20)

Hi , Rev 11.9″ And those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for 3 days and a half, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb” Why not just say ” all the nations”? Why are they not permitted by all these groups in agreement to be laid in a tomb? Why say “a tomb”[singular] Why is burial not mentioned? 3 1\2 days seems tantalisingly like the 3 1\2 years of Dan 12.7 where the “power of the holy people”[?faith] is “shattered” before the end comes.

Perhaps it is referring to all languages and cultures. For example the recent tsunami would have been broadcast to not just every nation, but probably most language groups in each country as well.

They are not permitted to be put in a tomb so that the people can see if their words are true. E.g., Jesus was put in a tomb and was raised from the dead. To this day, people say that the disciples stole the body and then spread a lie about the resurrection.

Now the world sees 2 men who represent all men before God and they like Christ talk about being raised up after their death. Will the world who have been tormented by them, allow their bodies to be hidden away and hense allow for people to steal their bodies. No way, not this time. They are put on display to prove once and for all that all this talk about ressurection is bunk.

The problem for them is that they do rise from the dead and not just 1 or 2 witnesses see it. Of course at this point great fear would strike them. It would be irrefutable proof that Yeshua is the Messiah and that God is going to punish the disobedient world and whatever their message was. It could be that their resurrection is the same resurrection that we will partake in. In other words 1 resurrection.

Tombs in those days were usually for the rich. They had a stone that was rolled over the entrance and the stone was guided by a channel. Usually what happened was a dead person was placed in a tomb and then as other people died from his/her family, they to were placed in the same tomb. So families were put together at death. A tomb has room for many to be placed in at death, as well as room to walk around.

Burial may not be mentioned because that would not allow the people to prove or disprove the claim that these 2 will rise from the dead.

Yes 3 1/2 days does seem similar to 3 1/2 years. The only problem is that both are mentioned together. If they were the same thing, then why say it in 2 different ways? That would only serve to bring confusion, even to those who seek the truth.

When we talk about 3 days or 3 1/2 days, the first thing that comes to my mind is the death of our Lord. He was in Hades for 3 days. This to me seems much more tantalising.

Lastly, you mentioned that almost everyone says what I am saying and skips over the inconsistencies, but my view is that it doesn't make it wrong if most believe it, or if it is the popular opinion. E.g., most Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God. Also I cannot see the inconsistencies that you talk about. To me the scripture is about as vague as the prophecy regarding Elijah coming before the coming of the Lord. John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah and fulfilled that prophecy. I personally believe that Elijah will come again to prepare the way of the Lord. Or at least men or a man will rise up in the spirit of Elijah.

I argue this point of view not to say that I am right, but that the point of view is a valid option. I am open of course as I am with other subjects too. But sometimes a point of view needs to be expounded in order to see it's merit. Otherwise it could just be left behind under the guise of “it doesn't fit perfectly together I will throw it away and go down another track”.

I think if we are honest, we will see even Old Testament scripture and it's fulfilment in the New Testament as being mysterous and sometimes vague. But other times it is really clear. We have to be open to the scripture about the 2 witnesses as also being vague, or even clear.

Yes I speak of the popular view, but it still makes more sense to me than what I have heard so far. But don't let me put anyone off searching out the meaning. I am just saying that we shouldn't throw something away until we have irrefutable proof of the meaning. Otherwise we may narrower than the truth of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
Yes the Lord was in the earth for three days. But the use of “three and a half “is different and ,as far as I know, does not appear in any other context in the bible than as half the seven year tribulation time. In thatcontext it is extremely common in different guises.

I still believe we should not ignore this, which may be a simple key to unlocking the “sealed prophecies”.

But to each their own.

[Proclaimer]

I will continue to read and see where it goes.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Despite your apparent lack of enthusiastic support folks I suggest we should assemble all the prophetic verses with 3 and a half in them and compare what they say as I think we can find out more about the tribulation.

Then by putting these aside of the whole we may grasp more of the rest of these books in that light.

At least some constructive light on the steps of the process shown so far would be a start.

For starters Rev 13 also contains the phrase.

Anyone care to put their shoulder to the wheel or does it challenge your traditional dogmatic approaches too much?

[Proclaimer]

I am enthusiastic with Revelation and the 2 witnesses.

Does anyone else think the 2 witnesses are 2 men?
Does anyone think that the 144,000 are also men?

Nick, I did a search on Bible Gateway under the keyword “witnesses” and in all cases (as it appeared to me) it was speaking of men. There were not that many verses so all of them can be read in a short time.

Also I wonder if the oil that is in the lampstands and the tree is representitive of the Spirit, (a common teaching I know). Elsewhere we see 7 lampstands as being 7 churches. We also see 7 stars as angels of the 7 churches.

Perhaps the Spirit flows into and from these men like the churches. Also they are said to represent all mankind. I know that there are archangels and perhaps they represent angels in the same way.

Also does anyone know of a bible verse that mentions “men” in a literal sense (e.g., These men have power to shut up the sky…), but is not actually talking about men. In other words are there scriptures that talk about men in a symbolic sense to mean something else and if so, what is man symbolic of.

As far as I am aware, the word 'man' is not symbolic, but is taken literally in scripture.

I wouldn't usually ask this kind of question, but for the sake of searching this I ask it.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2005,03:31)

Anyone care to put their shoulder to the wheel or does it challenge your traditional dogmatic approaches too much?

So if we do not participate then are we traditional and dogmatic. Could there other possibilities?

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