- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Phoenix @ Feb. 24 2007,14:46) Right Well I guess that makes sense then. *biffs the books in trash can*
Hugs
Phoenix
Hi P,
First get your feet in the kingdom and seek the blessing of the baptism in the Spirit, then read all the books you want and let the Spirit show you truth and error as we need to know both.
I am uncertain that the two witnesses are people. The manuscripts do not say men, they are even though NIV dares to make such a statement, and the language is too reflective on the time of the tribulation[7 years] for that to be irrelevant.Hi Nick
I honestly dont know who to ask about baptism lol. Im not sure I should ask my tutor considering I disagree with her a lot lol. None of my family are religious except my aunty who is with Jehovahs Witnesses.
What I should be asking is… does it matter where you get baptised?
Hugs
PhoenixHi P,
YES
I will bring up some relevant threads.
Tell God you want to and ask Him to smooth the path to that obedience.Hi
Getting back to the subject… ok I understand the Olive trees and Lampstands represent Moses and Elijah.
Zech 4 explains the lampstand and olive trees and the angel said in verse 7 “This is the word of the Lord…”
So the two witnesses in Rev 11 represent The Word. right?
Moses – Law and Elijah – Prophets
Gods Word – The Bible
Hugs
PhoenixPhoenix
Quote Zech 4 explains the lampstand and olive trees and the angel said in verse 7 “This is the word of the Lord…” So the two witnesses in Rev 11 represent The Word. right?
Right!
The Two Witnesses are the Old and New Testaments.
Quote (Faith First @ Mar. 02 2007,11:15) Phoenix Quote Zech 4 explains the lampstand and olive trees and the angel said in verse 7 “This is the word of the Lord…” So the two witnesses in Rev 11 represent The Word. right?
Right!
The Two Witnesses are the Old and New Testaments.
That would seem right. But why are you so sure?Hi Ken
Im not sure if you were asking me as well, but The Word was portrayed as dual form.
God wrote his Laws on the two stone tablets. Remember Moses carved the tablets in a particular way… when placed together side by side they look like a book.
In Hebrews the author describes The Word as a Two-Edged Sword. As you can imagine there are two sides on the sword.
As we all know, Moses represents the Law and Elijah represents the Prophets. These two together make up the Word of God.
So the Old Testament and the New Testament makes the Word of God.
Do you agree?
Hugs
PhoenixQuote (Phoenix @ Mar. 02 2007,18:42) Hi Ken Im not sure if you were asking me as well, but The Word was portrayed as dual form.
God wrote his Laws on the two stone tablets. Remember Moses carved the tablets in a particular way… when placed together side by side they look like a book.
In Hebrews the author describes The Word as a Two-Edged Sword. As you can imagine there are two sides on the sword.
As we all know, Moses represents the Law and Elijah represents the Prophets. These two together make up the Word of God.
So the Old Testament and the New Testament makes the Word of God.
Do you agree?
Hugs
Phoenix
Yes I know that the Old Covenant and the New covenant are witnesses against all who reject God. And I believe that. But I can't teach that unless I have scripture and witness from the Spirit. I cannot point to the Testaments and say they are the two witnesses. That's why I want to know if Faith first has some sort of proof. If he does GOOD but if he doesn't then it's his opinion like mine.Hi Ken
I understand you need to see what proof Faith might have, but wouldnt that explanation I have done be enough proof? I mean it convinced me enough to believe it.
Im looking forward to hear what Faith or anyone else have to say as well.
Hugs
PhoenixQuote (Phoenix @ Mar. 02 2007,19:00) Hi Ken I understand you need to see what proof Faith might have, but wouldnt that explanation I have done be enough proof? I mean it convinced me enough to believe it.
Im looking forward to hear what Faith or anyone else have to say as well.
Hugs
Phoenix
Me too!P,
I didn't say I don't believe it. I said I can't prove it from scripture. What you said SEEMS right but ALL Satan's lies seem right. I have no definite witness in my spirit and no scripture. That's one reason why their are daughters of the harlet. I guess I have a reason why “I” should believe it but that's not enough. I'm just a man who if it were not for the Holy Spirit and those who obey the Holy Spirit I would be deceived. So I don't rely on MY judgement.Greetings my friends.
As I mentioned earlier, I believe that the Two Witnesses of Rev.11:1-12 are the Old and New Testaments.
Here is an article which I have shortened. Unfortunately it is still a little long, so please be patient while reading it. I hope that it may answer some of your concerns.
Blessings.
The Two Witnesses
“And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.” -Revelation 11:1-12
We just learned that the two witnesses were described as “two olive trees” as well as “two candlesticks” in Revelation 11:4. Before going further I always like to check and see if any aspect of a prophecy is repeated elsewhere in the Word.
In Zechariah 4:2-4 we read this, “And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?”
Zechariah 4:5-6, “Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.”
Christian have always known that the Word of God is defined as a righteous source of light, for it is written…
2 Corinthians 4:6, “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
·
Psalms 119:105, “…Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.”
·
2 Peter 1:19, “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:”
·
Psalms 119:130, “The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
·
“Proverbs 6:23, “For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:”To summerize…
Candlesticks = Lampstand = “light unto path” (Word of God)
Olive tree = Oil = “but by my Spirit” (also see Rev 4:5)THE VISION IN Revelation 11:1-12 WAS DESCRIBING THE “OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS”
To understand the forty and two months that the beast will reign, we must first find the method of time the Bible declares for prophecy. God says in Ezekiel 4:6 “I have appointed thee each day for a year” And we also find the Bible acknowledges a month to be 30 days long.
So, how does this connect with the two witnesses?
Revelation 11:2,3 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot foot forty and two months.. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.Do you notice the 2 witnesses are testifying IN SACKCLOTH? What theme runs throughout Scripture in regards to the wearing of sackcloth? It always represents mourning of some sort. As Christians do we not mourn when we are inhibited and or persecuted for spreading the love of the Gospel? In this case, the mourning that warrants the wearing of sackcloth is in direct response to the suppression of the Roman Catholic power persecuting anyone that would speak the Oracles of God.
Revelation 11:7,8 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
1260 YEARS after they started, it says here a beast will rise up that will make war and eventually KILL the 2 witnesses. Fact is, when the Reformation of Luther hit Roman Catholic France it was accepted with open arms. However, the Roman Catholic Papacy was very angered by this open acceptance of the Truth by the masses mainly because it exposed them and their evil agenda. So…the French Revolution was initiated by agents of Rome.
Historic fact is, the Revolution was a movement that was TOTALLY AGAINST any form of Religion. Anyone found embracing the Truth in Scripture were destroyed openly and completely. The historic “MASSACRE OF BARTHOLOMEW” is open evidence of that fact! The historic facts and figures can be researched in the book, “AGE OF REASON” by Thomas Paine. This book was sweeping the Nation declaring a belief in self over and above the Lord as the “smart” thing to do. So, to understand the prophecy, we need to ask, did Roman Catholic France make war on the Bible during this Revolution as the prophecy hints to?
” France declared war on the Bible in 1793. A decree passed on the French assembly declaring the Bible forbidden, and under the decree the Bible was gathered and burned and all the institutions of the Bible abolished. Baptism and commuion abolished. The being of God denied and death declared an eternal sleep. The goddess of “reason” was set up in the person of a vile woman and publically worshipped.” -Midnight Cry p.47 by George Storrs
“On the 17th of June, Camille Jordan, in the `Council of Five Hundred,' brought up the memorable report on the `Revision of the laws relative to religious worship.'…the Bible had been slain in France from November, 1793, till June, 1797….[Then] the Bible, so long and so sternly repressed before, was placed in honor, and was openly the Book of free Protestantism.”(George Croly, The Apocalypse of St. John, p 181-183, (1828); quoted in Source Book, p 615-616.
“On the 10th of November [1793] an ass, dressed
out in a sacerdotal habit, was led in procession through the town [of Paris] by two `san culottes,' carrying a sacred cup, out of which they gave the animal drink; and when they arrived at one of the public edifices, Bibles, books of devotion, etc., were piled up in a heap, which was set on fire amidst horrid shouts from a vast concourse of people…Wherever a Bible could be found it might be said to be persecuted to death…it is a remarkable circumstance that 26 theaters in Paris were open and filled to overflowing [to celebrate]…”(J.G. Lorimer, An Historical Sketch of the Protestant Church of France, p 530-532, (1841); quoted in Source Book For Bible Students, p 614.To summerize…
Candlesticks = Lampstand = “light unto path” (Word of God)
Olive tree = Oil = “but by my Spirit” (also see Rev 4:5)“Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts”
Both the Old and New Testament bear witness unto the Lord Jesus Christ and His work of salvation for all mankind. The Old Testament ANNOUNCED HIS COMING and the New Testament CONFIRMED HIS ARRIVAL.
Jesus Himself declared that, “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”-John 5:39 His two witnesses have done this all along. Fact is,
THE VISION IN Revelation 11:1-12 WAS DESCRIBING THE “OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS”
On November 10, 1793, the French National Assembly decreed in Paris that the Christian religion should be abolished, and the Bible suppressed. With that declaration the Old and New Testaments of the Bible were prophetically KILLED. In fact the Bibles were burned in public to demonstrate their complete rejection of the Almighty and His will. The “goddess of reason” was declared the truth during this time by the leaders of the movement. The people actually rejoiced over the fact they got the Bible out of their lives. They celebrated, they sent gifts to one another, they rejoiced in great multitudes. And yes, prophecy even saw this before its time. In Revelation 11:10 it stated plainly that, “And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.” And by the way, did you notice in verse 8 of Revelation 11 that the 2 witnesses bodies were in the street that, “spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt?” The key word is SPIRITUALLY called Sodom and Egypt. But why?
Using Biblical jurisprudence one can see…
·Egypt = “Atheism “because in Exodus 5:2 it states this, “And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.” Historic fact is, FRANCE did indeed declare “God dead” in their Revolution openly in the streets, the media of the day, and numerous publications as well.
·Sodom = “Immorality” because in Ezekiel 16:49-50 it says, “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom …her and in her daughters, …committed abomination before me”
The depiction of Sodom is defined and confirmed in the rampant immorality that resulted in France after the Bible was removed from it's lifestyle. The depiction of Egypt in prophecy fits this time in history as well. With the declaration that “GOD IS DEAD” in Egypt, the claim of Pharoah echoed over time with uncanny accuracy. Take note of the following quote that confirms this defiance…
With blasphemous boldness almost beyond belief, one of the priests of the new order said: “God, if You exist, avenge Your injured name. I bid You defiance! You remain silent; You dare not launch Your thunders. Who after this will believe in Your existence?”–Lacretelle, History, vol. 11, p. 309; in Sir Archibald Alison, History of Europe, vol. 1, ch. 10.
What a clear and precise echo is this of the Pharaoh when he said in Exodus 5:2, “…Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD…”
The KEY POINT here however is the THREE AND A HALF DAYS that this occurred. Here is the clincher of the whole ball of wax!
As you read earlier in Revelation 11:11 it stated that “after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.”
On November 11, 1793 the French government VOTED RELIGION OUT AND THE BIBLE WAS ABOLISHED IN FRANCE! And after some time the people started to realize the Nation of France was about to crumble to nothing because of the stupidity of the Laws put in place. Their decadent behaviour was reeking havoc on all they held dear. So they decided to VOTE RELIGION BACK IN shortly thereafter. How many years passed you ask?
·11-17-1793 FRANCE VOTES RELIGION AND BIBLE OUT!
·06-10-1797 FRANCE VOTES RELIGION AND BIBLE BACK IN!According to Ezekiel 4:6, “…I have appointed thee each day for a year.” Time is actually declared to be a “DAY FOR A YEAR” in prophecy. And here we see that in EXACTLY 3 AND A HALF YEARS the Bible came back into the lives of the people in a very graphic manner. How graphic you ask?
Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
The Word of God was to ascend to Heaven in front of the Lord's enemies. This symbolic language of Revelation 11:12, is declaring that the Two Witnesses will becoem great and well known.
Directly after the Bible “came back to life” we see it becoming GREAT all over the world.
·BRITISH BIBLE SOCIETY ESTABLISHED 1804
·AMERICAN BIBLE SOCIETY ESTABLISHED 1816
·FOREIGN MISSIONS PROCLAIMING THE GOSPEL EXPLODE TO ALL CORNERS OF THE GLOBE
·PRINTING PRESS MASSIVELY PRODUCES THE WORDThus the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11:1-12 WAS DESCRIBING THE “OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2006,11:39) Hi h,
One out of three.
Ignoring that for the moment.But Jesus was crucified on “earth”
In Israel,
was “lifted up in the air”.
I believe it to be Jerusalem as well.Christ was crucified there for sure, but Jerusalem had long been a place know for sodomy(Sodom) and worldliness(Egypt).
Sodomy and Sodom are easy, but what may not be known, even to this day, is that most of the worldliness, in that part of the world, came/comes from Egypt.
I hope that helps.
Rick.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
