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Hi,
I have decided this topic could well do with a more close analysis and I would like to hear from others with their views.Thank you tt,
But for the sake of us slower members, since the answer does not jump out of the article could I ask you please to give us a thumbnail sketch ?Judgement is being passed on the Church in Revelation 2 and 3. What remains is Two Candlesticks (Witnesses) in Revelation 11.
Paul
Quote (trettep @ Mar. 19 2005,14:32) Judgement is being passed on the Church in Revelation 2 and 3. What remains is Two Candlesticks (Witnesses) in Revelation 11. Paul
Trettep,I never would have guessed that. Indeed the thought never even crossed my mind. I shall keep that in mind and go over the scriptures.
BTW, good job on hilighting the similarities b/n the candlesticks and churchs and presenting the OT correlations. That is helpful.
It not a thought of mine – its what the Word of God says:
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Paul
Hi tt,
Each church you say, then, has angel and a Spirit to guide it. Are you saying only two of the churches survive the judgement? Which two? So what of the angels and Spirit? What of the individuals in those churches-do they go down with the ship?Are you saying Zech 4 describes Yeshua[as Zerubbabel]ministering to the seven churches by their Spirit? Olive trees supply oil[Spirit]to the two branches.Are you saying these are the two surviving churches?
The Two Witness during the Tribulation therefore, this doesn't mean that the rest are doomed. The Tribulation is therefore for those that were not chosen that they might be tested. As for the Angels I can't comment much yet about them. Only because if I did so I would be making speculation. I can only comment on what I know. As for Zerrubabel, I haven't studied his role enough as well. I have some other things that I was led to when I attempted to study it further. I think until I can learn some of these other things first that it may be much more difficult to comment on those. I'm trying to reveal what gets revealed to me and no more.
Paul
Hi t8 and tt,
Whether or not you are right tt I believe it is not possible to come to an understanding of Rev11 without taking into account Zech 4. Anyone like to try and marry these scriptures as they are vitally similar in many ways. If Zech 4 refers to two men then you may convince me that Rev 11 does too. But only NIV [+3others]seems to say they are men and I don't have much faith in that translation.Ok Zech 4,
Lets have a go. Looking at similar figuresOlive trees-?grapevine[ 2]
Olive branches-?vine branches[ 2]
Olives-fruit. [not mentioned.]
Olive oil -from fruit. Lamp fuel
Pipes-supplies oil to lamp[ 2]
Lampstand and bowl. holds lamps
Seven lamps .burn oil, gives light.Lord of the earth ?Yeshua as also Zerubbabel,capstone,
Two “anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the earth.Anointed with oil? Spirit?There are two trees, two olive branches, two pipes-this may be a separate idiom.
The two olive trees are sources of oil which usually symbolises the Spirit. These appear in both Zech 4 and Rev11. Because of that I cannot see them as human. They stand beside the Lord of the whole earth in Zech and Rev 11.-that does not seem a role one would think of in human terms either.
Now in Rev 11 the witnesses are also described as lampstands. But in Zech there is only one lampstand with 7 lamps suggesting seven churches [The whole Church]and their portion of Spirit suggesting it is not the same as the olive trees. That means the Revn idiom must be reexamined.
More later.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2005,02:04) Hi t8 and tt,
Whether or not you are right tt I believe it is not possible to come to an understanding of Rev11 without taking into account Zech 4. Anyone like to try and marry these scriptures as they are vitally similar in many ways. If Zech 4 refers to two men then you may convince me that Rev 11 does too. But only NIV [+3others]seems to say they are men and I don't have much faith in that translation.
I took into account Zech 4 but maybe not exactly what you are looking for. Be more specific. The Candlesticks are comprised of men but whether or not the 2 Candlesticks that remain are two men is something I dont know.Paul
Hi, What seems a simple thing in Rev 11 is shown to be more complicated by Zech 4. The olive tree symbol is totally separate from the lampstand symbol.There are two of each in Revn but only one lampstand described quite separately in Zech 4.
Hi ,
Why are they witnesses? What have they witnessed ? Why should prophets be witnesses? In fact they are not said to be prophets but said to prophesy.If they are prophets are they OTor NTprophets? If they are OT why would they be prophesying under the NT?
Or are they testimonies?
The testament is a testament of the Gospel and of Jesus Christ. These are those that know the Gospel message and worship in the Spirit. The Tables in the Old Testiment contained the Testimony or witness of God written by the finger of God. These Two Witnesses are a testimony also of the Law in fleshy tables of the heart of God's law carried out in the Spirit. This is why many of those that say that the 10 commandments and all the law was nailed to the cross will never understand the 2 witness or the Gospel. That was the main thing that Satan did in the Garden of Eden was to make Eve disobedient to God's Law. And the purpose of the members of the Church to to be obedient and be a testament and Witness to Jesus Christ and the Gospel. Thats why there were two tables of stone and why there is two witnesses because a testimony requires at least 2.
Paul
Interesting points Paul,
Ok if we take from Zech 4 that “olive trees” represent in both scriptures “Anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the Earth” [It is confusing as “olive branches” are also mentioned in the same context and not differentiated]Note that it says “anointed ones” instead of “anointed men”
In human terms in the OT those who were anointed were prophets and kings. So that would tend to exclude Moses and Enoch I would have thought?
If we take from Rev 1.20 that “lampstands ” represent “churches”then why is there one in Zech and two in Revelation 11? It certainly makes it very unlikely anyway that these are two individuals.
If you read my article I posted on the 7 Churches you can see where the use of the words “lampstand” or “candlestick” can be confusing as it was translated. But were your seeing in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 is one LAMPSTAND with 7 Candlesticks on it. Notice in the warning to the Ephesus congregation that a candlestick can be removed. Thats what happens by Chapter 11. The candlesticks are removed except for two of them. If you recall Christ is in the midst of the Candlesticks. Now draw a menora with a pencil and label each candlestick from either side in the order the congregations are listed in Chapters 2 and 3 with the name of each congregation for example: Ephesis, Smyrna, etc.. Now erase all those that God found a problem with and you will be left with two which are Smyrna and Philadelphia. Now you will have a Lampstand with two candlesticks or a menorah with two candlesticks with the names Smyrna and Philadelphia and notice that Christ would still be in the midst of it. As the candlesticks are in proportion to the center of the Lampstand.
Paul
Hi t8,
From a post in the other forum
Rev 11.8
” and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city,
which mystically is called SODOM
And EGYPT,
where also their Lord was crucified”If you skip the Sodom and Egypt lines it certainly looks like Jerusalem. But they are there and must have meaning. They certainly are not in Jerusalem. Certainly Sodom symbolises sin and rebellion and Egypt symbolises the World. But are there any other scriptures that relate these descriptions to Jerusalem?
It says “the street” and not “a street”.
Hi Paul,
I do love your analogies and I am sure they have merit.They do raise some questions though.
Are you saying that only the assemblies that are identified[Smyrna and Philadelphia]are effective as witnesses?
Or are they the only ones remaining?
If so what happened to the others?
Did none of them respond to the warnings and repent?Since the account in Revelation 2 and 3 is the Judgement on the Church and the only congregations that receive favor are the Smyrna and Philadelphia then I would say those congregations are the Witnesses. Now to say that in respect to Chapter 11 would be like saying that everyone that is a member of those two congregations are the witness. I don't know if that is the case or not or if its two people but who ever it is I believe the two witness will have the Spirits of those two candlesticks respectively.
Paul
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