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Hi TT,
So to clarify PART of God became a man and died?WHO IS YOUR GOD THEN BECAUSE OURS IS ONE AND IMMORTAL?
Quote (thethinker @ July 10 2009,10:17) Quote (Gene @ July 10 2009,10:02) Jodi………You have said it right, GOD the Father does the work, and His work can be done (ONLY) by Him, we are granted to tag along with Jesus and all who The Father Calls. It is GOD the FATHER that calls us into the saving work he does through Jesus. Jesus plainly said (NO MAN) (CAN) come unto me unless the Father draw HIM. Jesus know full well who was doing the work. Good post Sis. peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Gene,
There you go again telling only part of the story. In the days of His flesh He allowed the Father to do all the work because He was under the Father. But looking forward to His exaltation He said that the protection of His sheep was a dual effort by both Him and the Father (John 10). And in His exalted state He Himself reveals the Father to men so that they can be saved.Quote All things have been delivered to me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son WILLS to reveal Him (Matt. 11:27) Did you see that Gene? Before He was exalted the Father did all the work . But after the Father exalted Him all things were delivered into His hands. So now no one may know the Father unless the Son Himself WILLS to reveal Him. Why is it that you anti-trinitarians are stuck on the servant Jesus and ignore the power and authority of the exalted Jesus?
One must know the Father in order to have eternal life. Right? And no one may know the Father unless the Son Himself WILLS it!
thinker
I posted this awhile back,John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
We see the above scripture show that Jesus was NOT YET glorified…..the hour has come…..and now O Father, glorify me.
We see that the glory in chapter 17 is represented as eternal life.
Therefore the glorifying that Jesus is waiting for is eternal life.
I think we should think things over a bit here. Jesus received immortality? What exactly did Jesus become?
Mt 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
He was resurrected and remained a Son of MAN!
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
He was resurrected and still had flesh and bone!
There is no reference to Jesus being any other sort of 'being,' other than a human. Jesus was the MAN from heaven. What does that mean to be from heaven? The manna in the wilderness was said to be from heaven. Jesus was compared to being the manna from heaven. The manna didn’t literally pre-exist in heaven, it came down from heaven meaning that it was not produced through nature do to the timing of a harvest season. It was created on earth under the direct plan and timing of God. Jesus came from heaven not because some part of him who pre-existed and emptied himself came down from God’s dwelling place. Jesus did not come the natural way from the procreation of two individuals. Jesus came under the direct plan and timing of God.
The glory that Jesus was waiting to receive, was the glory of a HUMAN BEING receiving immortality. This was the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world was.
Other scriptures show this to be true as well.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; 4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ F1 our Savior.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
The PROMISE was NOT for a pre-existent immortal son to empty himself and become a human being to save mankind, that is adding to scripture. It’s not even close to what Romans 1 tells us, which is that the promise was for a descendant of David, a human according to the flesh, would come at the direct planning and timing of God, and live, die and be resurrected.
Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
David already saw Jesus through God’s revelation sitting at the right hand of God. What is rather significant when we think about it, is that this future glory was already ALIVE as a spirit of knowledge and understanding, working in the heart of man, in the heart of David BEFORE it occurred. David foresaw the glory and I’m sure it moved him, as it does us.
David did not foresee a pre-existent son coming down from heaven. David foresaw the plan of God which was to create an eternal king from his own blood.
The glory that existed before the world was, that lived in the heart and mind of David, was David’s own descendant receiving immortality and sitting at the right hand of God.
1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurr
ection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.If these men believed for one second that Jesus was some pre-existing immortal, I believe the doubt of their own resurrection would have been much greater AND highly more understandable.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
Jesus is the firstfruits according to being the first MAN raised from the dead receiving immortality.
Scripture defines God’s plan, which was NOT for a pre-existent son to empty himself and become a human, it was God’s plan that by one man death would come and by another MAN, death would be destroyed.
The glory that Jesus had with God before the world was, is shown to be the plan of a man of the seed of David, receiving immortality.
This glory was alive and producing fruit long before it even occurred. It lived in the hearts of the prophets, and it certainly lived in the beginning, in the heart of our Almighty Father.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 10 2009,11:19) Quote (thethinker @ July 10 2009,10:17) Quote (Gene @ July 10 2009,10:02) Jodi………You have said it right, GOD the Father does the work, and His work can be done (ONLY) by Him, we are granted to tag along with Jesus and all who The Father Calls. It is GOD the FATHER that calls us into the saving work he does through Jesus. Jesus plainly said (NO MAN) (CAN) come unto me unless the Father draw HIM. Jesus know full well who was doing the work. Good post Sis. peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Gene,
There you go again telling only part of the story. In the days of His flesh He allowed the Father to do all the work because He was under the Father. But looking forward to His exaltation He said that the protection of His sheep was a dual effort by both Him and the Father (John 10). And in His exalted state He Himself reveals the Father to men so that they can be saved.Quote All things have been delivered to me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son WILLS to reveal Him (Matt. 11:27) Did you see that Gene? Before He was exalted the Father did all the work . But after the Father exalted Him all things were delivered into His hands. So now no one may know the Father unless the Son Himself WILLS to reveal Him. Why is it that you anti-trinitarians are stuck on the servant Jesus and ignore the power and authority of the exalted Jesus?
One must know the Father in order to have eternal life. Right? And no one may know the Father unless the Son Himself WILLS it!
thinker
I posted this awhile back,John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
We see the above scripture show that Jesus was NOT YET glorified…..the hour has come…..and now O Father, glorify me.
We see that the glory in chapter 17 is represented as eternal life.
Therefore the glorifying that Jesus is waiting for is eternal life.
I think we should think things over a bit here. Jesus received immortality? What exactly did Jesus become?
Mt 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
He was resurrected and remained a Son of MAN!
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
He was resurrected and still had flesh and bone!
There is no reference to Jesus being any other sort of 'being,' other than a human. Jesus was the MAN from heaven. What does that mean to be from heaven? The manna in the wilderness was said to be from heaven. Jesus was compared to being the manna from heaven. The manna didn’t literally pre-exist in heaven, it came down from heaven meaning that it was not produced through nature do to the timing of a harvest season. It was created on earth under the direct plan and timing of God. Jesus came from heaven not because some part of him who pre-existed and emptied himself came down from God’s dwelling place. Jesus did not come the natural way from the procreation of two individuals. Jesus came under the direct plan and timing of God.
The glory that Jesus was waiting to receive, was the glory of a HUMAN BEING receiving immortality. This was the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world was.
Other scriptures show this to be true as well.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; 4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ F1 our Savior.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
The PROMISE was NOT for a pre-existent immortal son to empty himself and become a human being to save mankind, that is adding to scripture. It’s not even close to what Romans 1 tells us, which is that the promise was for a descendant of David, a human according to the flesh, would come at the direct planning and timing of God, and live, die and be resurrected.
Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
David already saw Jesus through God’s revelation sitting at the right hand of God. What is rather significant when we think about it, is that this future glory was already ALIVE as a spirit of knowledge and understanding, working in the heart of man, in the heart of David BEFORE it occurred. David foresaw the glory and I’m sure it moved him, as it does us.
David did not foresee a pre-existent son coming down from heaven. David foresaw the plan of God which was to create an eternal king from his own blood.
The glory that existed before the world was, that lived in the heart and mind of David, was David’s own descendant receiving immortality and sitting
at the right hand of God.1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
If these men believed for one second that Jesus was some pre-existing immortal, I believe the doubt of their own resurrection would have been much greater AND highly more understandable.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
Jesus is the firstfruits according to being the first MAN raised from the dead receiving immortality.
Scripture defines God’s plan, which was NOT for a pre-existent son to empty himself and become a human, it was God’s plan that by one man death would come and by another MAN, death would be destroyed.
The glory that Jesus had with God before the world was, is shown to be the plan of a man of the seed of David, receiving immortality.
This glory was alive and producing fruit long before it even occurred. It lived in the hearts of the prophets, and it certainly lived in the beginning, in the heart of our Almighty Father.
Your post is very good Jodi in fact it is excellent! Anything I would disagree with in it is insignificant.God Bless you always!
Quote (thethinker @ July 10 2009,10:17) One must know the Father in order to have eternal life. Right? And no one may know the Father unless the Son Himself WILLS it!
thinker
Hi TTJohn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mt 12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Lu 11:2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Once again Jesus is not God, he is a human being with eternal life, who has been given power and authority by the one true God the Father. He is our brother, and when he has destroyed the last enemy he along with us will be subjected to the Father when the Father comes down from heaven and dwells with us.
Joh 6:27Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Joh 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
Joh 14:13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever–
Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
Joh 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
Galatians 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Re 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Re 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
The throne is the throne of Jesus because God his Father gave it to him. God gave it to him for what he accomplished as a man through God's Spirit. Don't forget that the promise was for a man of the seed of David to become an eternal King.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,11:21) Hi Jodi,
So a human being had glory in heaven with God.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.
Hi Nick,1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed– 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Try and follow me here because I think your viewing that part of the scripture in the wrong light, the part that says flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom.
We know that Jesus was raised from the dead with flesh and bone as scripture says. We know that scripture after the resurrection still refers to Jesus as being the Son of man. As well we are told that the corruptible are changed to incorruptible and the mortal is changed to immortal.
My understanding is that man, rather flesh and blood, cannot inherit the Kingdom, man needs God and God's Spirit to inherit the kingdom. There is nothing in our flesh and blood that can bring to us eternal life and the Kingdom of God. My understanding is that when God comes down to dwell with us we will still be human beings with the senses of touch, taste, smell, hear, and see, but we will be using those in righteous ways. We will be fully enjoying God's creation with everyone unified together with individual talents that serve one another and bring each of us fulfillment.
What do you think? Read the scripture again. Do you think the scripture is telling us that we will not be humans in the Kingdom of God, or is the scripture telling us that we on our own cannot bring ourselves into the Kingdom of God?
Peace to you, Jodi
Hi Jodi,
Yes he was raised flesh and blood to fulfil scripture.
But we who follow him, are given a heavenly body such as the Son of God returns in.
It seems to me that when he was raised from the earth as shown in Acts 1 he would have been given such a body.
Flesh and blood such as he was shown to be raised in cannot inherit the kingdom.
He appears again and is changed to be different in Dan 7.13Jodi Lee's commentary on John 17:3
Quote We see the above scripture show that Jesus was NOT YET glorified…..the hour has come…..and now O Father, glorify me. We see that the glory in chapter 17 is represented as eternal life.
Therefore the glorifying that Jesus is waiting for is eternal life.
Jodi Lee,
The glorifying that Jesus waited for was NOT eternal life and immortality. It was the “glory” He has together with the Father before the world began,Quote And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with the glory I ahd with You before the world began Was the glory that Jesus enjoyed before the world began “eternal life and imortality?”
Jodi lee said:
Quote Jesus was the MAN from heaven. What does that mean to be from heaven? The manna in the wilderness was said to be from heaven. Jesus was compared to being the manna from heaven. The manna didn’t literally pre-exist in heaven, it came down from heaven meaning that it was not produced through nature do to the timing of a harvest season. It was created on earth under the direct plan and timing of God. Jesus came from heaven not because some part of him who pre-existed and emptied himself came down from God’s dwelling place. Jesus did not come the natural way from the procreation of two individuals. Jesus came under the direct plan and timing of God. Wow! You are essentially saying that the man from heaven is from the earth when Paul clesarly contrasts Jesus with the first Adam who was from the earth.
Quote The first man was from the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven Paul clearly contrasts heaven from the earth. The first man was from the earth, MADE OF DUST. The second Man was the Lord from heaven. Therefore, Christ in His pre-existent state was not made of dust. You have bizarre hermeneutics. And you failed to addresss my chief point that Christ is His exalted state is the One who does the work of salvation. He clearly said so.
thinker
Jodi lee wrote:
Quote John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. Jodi lee,
Please note the last part of the verse where Jesus said “I will raise Him up in the last day.” Jesus claims that He Himself raise the dead. In another place He said that He raises whom He wills,Quote For as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, even so the Son gives life to whom He WILL (John 5:21) Your method is the typical anti-trinitarian approach. You do not gather all the scriptures together and draw your conclusions. You select certain scriptures and pit scripture against itself. Jesus said that He Himself will raise from the dead whom the Father draws. Jesus said that He Himself gives life to whom He WILL.
He said that the Father was about to deliver ALL THINGS into His hands. This was fulfilled in His exaltation. Jesus runs the whole show now. Just as a human Father may turn over the full administration of the family business over to his son, so the heavenlty Father has turned over the full administration of the covenant of redemption over to the Son. This is what it means when Paul said that Jesus Christ is the Mediator of the covenant. The Mediator of the covenant is in the least REPRESENTATIVE GOD.
You and I will be debating satan in the near future. I recommend that you bone up so that you may do better than what you are doing here.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,20:10) Hi TT,
The prophets represented God too as the parable of the vineyard shows.
I said that Jesus “in the least” was Representative God. It means among other things that He is the Mediator of the covenant. The prophets were NOT mediators of the covenant.thinker
Hi TT,
Neither is a mediator either of the opponents who wish to be reconciled.Jesu is not the God of the OT or the NT.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,20:33) Hi TT,
Neither is a mediator either of the opponents who wish to be reconciled.Jesu is not the God of the OT or the NT.
Nick,
You just implied that the Mediator was not a man. You said:Quote Neither is a mediator either of the opponents who wish to be reconciled. If the mediator is neither of the opponents then Jesus was not a man. And if the mediator can be the one then he can be both.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 10 2009,19:46) Jodi Lee's commentary on John 17:3 Quote We see the above scripture show that Jesus was NOT YET glorified…..the hour has come…..and now O Father, glorify me. We see that the glory in chapter 17 is represented as eternal life.
Therefore the glorifying that Jesus is waiting for is eternal life.
Jodi Lee,
The glorifying that Jesus waited for was NOT eternal life and immortality. It was the “glory” He has together with the Father before the world began,Quote And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with the glory I ahd with You before the world began Was the glory that Jesus enjoyed before the world began “eternal life and imortality?”
Jodi lee said:
Quote Jesus was the MAN from heaven. What does that mean to be from heaven? The manna in the wilderness was said to be from heaven. Jesus was compared to being the manna from heaven. The manna didn’t literally pre-exist in heaven, it came down from heaven meaning that it was not produced through nature do to the timing of a harvest season. It was created on earth under the direct plan and timing of God. Jesus came from heaven not because some part of him who pre-existed and emptied himself came down from God’s dwelling place. Jesus did not come the natural way from the procreation of two individuals. Jesus came under the direct plan and timing of God. Wow! You are essentially saying that the man from heaven is from the earth when Paul clesarly contrasts Jesus with the first Adam who was from the earth.
Quote The first man was from the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven Paul clearly contrasts heaven from the earth. The first man was from the earth, MADE OF DUST. The second Man was the Lord from heaven. Therefore, Christ in His pre-existent state was not made of dust. You have bizarre hermeneutics. And you failed to addresss my chief point that Christ is His exalted state is the One who does the work of salvation. He clearly said so.
thinker
So to your understanding god the Son, came down and became a human infant?Think about what your saying man, it makes no sense?
Jesus came from heaven, the infant boy came from heaven through the plan of God. Jesus came from heaven because he was the DIRECT PURPOSE of God. As I mentioned before, Jesus speaks of himself as being the manna from heaven. Did the manna pre-exist, or was it made on earth but came through the direct purpose of God? That manna which was produced on earth that came directly from the will of God was food for life. Jesus who came to us on earth by a woman with human DNA being full man, CAME from the direct will of God. He was the true manna, he was the true source of life.
Does not the OT tell us that a HUMAN Messiah will be sent? Does not the OT tell us that a man of the seed of David would sit on David's throne and be an eternal King?
What the bible DOES NOT tell us is that a God became a human. That's paganistic thought if I've ever seen it.
Your adding your own thoughts, whereas I am following the OT PROMISE that YHWH gave to David.
What about this point that has yet to be answered,
Just what part of the infant boy was a god?
The fact that he grew in wisdom?
The fact that he needed the Father for everything?
The fact that he needed the Holy Spirit?
The fact that he DIED?What exactly made the human infant that grew in grace and knowledge through YHWH, a god?
You said, “The second Man was the Lord from heaven. Therefore, Christ in His pre-existent state was not made of dust.”
What on earth are you talking about TT? Whoah man! It says the SECOND MAN is the master from heaven. This fits perfectly with the prophesy YHWH gave to David. Who is the second Man according to scripture? Who is the person up in heaven with YHWH? It is Jesus, who is the Son of man born of the seed of David who was promised to be an eternal King.
Read it again and pay close attention,
15:41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Did not Jesus have a natural body and then was raised a spiritual body?
Heb 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Was Jesus not flesh, did Jesus not die, was Jesus not resurrected with an incorruptible body made with flesh and bone?
Lu 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Eph 5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
Ps 16:10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Ac 2:27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Ac 13:35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.'
Matthew 28:6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
The body of Jesus was not there because it had RISEN and was changed from a corruptible body to an incorruptible one. Jesus went from a mortal human to an immortal human.
15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Jesus was raised from the dead and BECAME a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
Notice that the life-giving spirit is a heavenly MAN, not a god, and as he is, we shall also be. As we were of the first Adam we will also be as the second Adam that was raised from the dead.
Believe the scriptures, and come out of your false teaching.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
John 12:23 But Jesus answered
them, saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified.John 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. 40 Therefore many from the crowd, when they heard this saying, said, “Truly this is the Prophet.” 41 Others said, “This is the Christ.” But some said, “Will the Christ come out of Galilee? 42 Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the seed of David and from the town of Bethlehem, where David was?”
The glory of which David saw was a man of his seed becoming an eternal King, a plan that YHWH had in the beginning.
Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
TT, I really believe that I am the one sticking with scripture here.
Tit 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
No scripture speaks of a person part of a trinity God coming down to be a human.
Scripture shows us that in the beginning God promised eternal life. Scripture shows us that God promised for a human to come and be an eternal king
You seem to be dodging strait forward scriptures and turning to ones you twist to make fit your doctrine.
1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, 18 and the wicked one does not touch him.
Was Jesus not a man who did not sin? Was it because he was God or was it because he was born of God?
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Did you understand that TT, Jesus the man came to give us an understanding of the ONE true God, YHWH his Father.
John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
God loved WHO BEFORE the foundation of the world? God loved God before the foundation of the world, God loved some eternal God Son before the foundation of the world?
NO, God loved Jesus the MAN born of the seed of David, who He foreknew would reconcile all of man to Himself.
Did Jesus say he came to glorify a trinity God?
No, Jesus came to glorify the Father that everyone would come to know the ONLY true God.
25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
I want to go back to 1 Corinthians 15 to make sure we have clarity.
Once again TT, you said, “”The second Man was the Lord from heaven. Therefore, Christ in His pre-existent state was not made of dust.”
Which was coming from
15:47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.TT, no offense, but your quote is the perfect example to me of how trinitarians pull scripture completely out of context to try and prove their doctrine.
It says the second Man IS the Lord from heaven. The scripture is not in anyway telling us that before Jesus came down to earth he was the Lord of heaven.
TT I find it hard to believe that you are reading scripture for what it says in the particular case. You seem to be missing important details, like the entire context.
15:41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Jesus is not God, he is the heavenly man and we are to be united with him and become heavenly men and woman too, for he is our brother, and our future master as King of our Father's Kingdom.
Please think on the scriptures,
Peace to you, Jodi
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdfJodi lee said:
Quote Jesus came from heaven, the infant boy came from heaven through the plan of God. Jesus came from heaven because he was the DIRECT PURPOSE of God. As I mentioned before, Jesus speaks of himself as being the manna from heaven. Did the manna pre-exist, or was it made on earth but came through the direct purpose of God? That manna which was produced on earth that came directly from the will of God was food for life. Jesus who came to us on earth by a woman with human DNA being full man, CAME from the direct will of God. He was the true manna, he was the true source of life. Jodi,
Paint it anyway you want. The contrast between the man from earth and the man from heaven is unmistakeably clear. The problem is with your Gnostic presuppositions.Quote The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second man is the Lord from heaven (1 Corinthians 15:47) Therefore, Jesus in His metaphysical essence was not from this earth.
Jehovah said that He will become who He is becoming
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
Please try to keep your posts brief. I try to live the old saying “There is virtue in brevity.”
thinker
So are you saying that you did not read my entire post?
If you didn't, which it does seem rather clear form your response that you didn't, I would really appreciate it if you would.
I will try and make my posts shorter for you next time. To be honest, I'd rather not have you post back to me unless you've read my entire post. I think that is common courtesy to do so. I apologize if you did.
Truth be told there is virtue in using more then a few scriptures to defend your position!!
I would actually prefer it if you would take the time to explain better your position and show directly where I am in error.
Otherwise I feel we are both just wasting each others time.
We are discussing the bible here for crying out loud, a book that is not brief.
Jodi
Quote (thethinker @ July 11 2009,03:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,20:33) Hi TT,
Neither is a mediator either of the opponents who wish to be reconciled.Jesu is not the God of the OT or the NT.
Nick,
You just implied that the Mediator was not a man. You said:Quote Neither is a mediator either of the opponents who wish to be reconciled. If the mediator is neither of the opponents then Jesus was not a man. And if the mediator can be the one then he can be both.
thinker
Hi TT,
Implications are personal and in no way reliable as you have just shown.Yet you think God is a trinity from the implications you have garnered from scripture?
It is much safer to teach what is written, that is if safety is important to you.
Jodi Lee said:
Quote Truth be told there is virtue in using more then a few scriptures to defend your position!! Jodi Lee,
I am loaded with Scripture. But I won't allow you to explain Paul's statement away by your pretexting. Paul said that the first man was of the earth, made of dust. He said that the second man was the Lord from heaven. Therefore, Christ was NOT made of dust. He was NOT of this earth. By your use of the scriptures (pretexting) you are blurring the contradistinction Paul clearly made between the first and the second man. Line upon line and precept upon precept is the rule.Paul then said this:
Quote As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those that are heavenly. And as we have born the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly man The first Adam was a mass of animated clay in his entire being. The second Man was not. The second Man was clay only in his physical constitution. In every other way He was heavenly and immortal. We have borne the image of dust as the first man. But one day we will bear the heavenly image of the second Man.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 11 2009,10:19) Jodi Lee said: Quote Truth be told there is virtue in using more then a few scriptures to defend your position!! Jodi Lee,
I am loaded with Scripture. But I won't allow you to explain Paul's statement away by your pretexting. Paul said that the first man was of the earth, made of dust. He said that the second man was the Lord from heaven. Therefore, Christ was NOT made of dust. He was NOT of this earth. By your use of the scriptures (pretexting) you are blurring the contradistinction Paul clearly made between the first and the second man. Line upon line and precept upon precept is the rule.Paul then said this:
Quote As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those that are heavenly. And as we have born the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly man The first Adam was a mass of animated clay in his entire being. The second Man was not. The second Man was clay only in his physical constitution. In every other way He was heavenly and immortal. We have borne the image of dust as the first man. But one day we will bear the heavenly image of the second Man.
thinker
You said,“The second Man was clay only in his physical constitution”
Didn't God put life in Adam and isn't God from heaven? So how are they different other than the obedience of Jesus?
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