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To All,
Let our non-trinitarian friends explain the following from Isaiah 48:12-16:12: “Listen to Me O Jacob, and Israel My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
13: Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together.
14: All of you, assemble yourselves and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His great pleasure in Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15: I, even I have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him and his way shall prosper.
16: Come near to Me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the LORD GOD and His Spirit have sent Me.”Commenting on the phrase “The Lord God and His Spirit has sent Me” Alan Cairns says this,
Quote The context after verse 12 shows that the speaker is the Messiah. He is clearly a divine person because in verse 12 he says, “I am he; I am the first, I am also the last….” In verse 16 He says, “From the time it was, there am I and the Lord God and His Spirit has sent Me.” What stronger evidence could be given on three divine persons, distinct from one another as to their personal properties, in unity of the divine essence? (Dictionary of Theological terms, Alan Cairns, Ambassador Emerald International, p. 496) Anti-trinitarians deny that Christ is the First and the Last. Yet the One who calls Himself the First and the Last in verse 12 says that He created the heavens and the earth (vs. 13) and that He was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit (vs. 16).
Therefore, Messiah is the First and the Last.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 06 2009,01:30) To All,
Let our non-trinitarian friends explain the following from Isaiah 48:12-16:12: “Listen to Me O Jacob, and Israel My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
13: Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together.
14: All of you, assemble yourselves and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His great pleasure in Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15: I, even I have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him and his way shall prosper.
16: Come near to Me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the LORD GOD and His Spirit have sent Me.”Commenting on the phrase “The Lord God and His Spirit has sent Me” Alan Cairns says this,
Quote The context after verse 12 shows that the speaker is the Messiah. He is clearly a divine person because in verse 12 he says, “I am he; I am the first, I am also the last….” In verse 16 He says, “From the time it was, there am I and the Lord God and His Spirit has sent Me.” What stronger evidence could be given on three divine persons, distinct from one another as to their personal properties, in unity of the divine essence? (Dictionary of Theological terms, Alan Cairns, Ambassador Emerald International, p. 496) Anti-trinitarians deny that Christ is the First and the Last. Yet the One who calls Himself the First and the Last in verse 12 says that He created the heavens and the earth (vs. 13) and that He was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit (vs. 16).
Therefore, Messiah is the First and the Last.
thinker
This is an actual Jewish source as I think it would be the best way to understand what is actually being said.We shall now study a verse from Isaiah that is often misinterpreted in order to create a misrepresentation with regard to God's absolute Unity. When the text is studied with its traditional translation to Aramaic, Targum Yonatan, and the traditional commentaries of Rashi, Ibn Ezra, and Radak, its true meaning is clear.
In Isaiah (48:12-16) we read:
Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel whom I have called.
I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.My hand has also laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has spanned the heavens.
When I call them, they stand up together.All of you: assemble yourselves and hear, which among them has declared these things?
He whom the Lord loves, he will do His pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Kasdim.I, even I, have spoken; indeed, I have called him.
I have brought him, and he shall succeed in his way.Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning.
From the time that it was, there have I been.
And now the Lord God and His spirit have sent me.The above verses in Isaiah form an integral portion in the text. In the Masoretic Bible text, they appear as a separate unit (parashah).
Unlike its false interpretation, there is no appearance here of three divine entities. Let us begin to analyze these verses.
First we must note that the grammatical division of almost every verse in the Bible is into two distinct sentences. This phenomenon is marked by the strongest cantillation note, the etnachta.
The second sentence of the last verse reads, “And now the L-rd God has sent me and His spirit.” The Targum and Rashi explain that this final sentence is a change of subject. Up until this point, the last word of the previous sentence reads, “There am I.” This concludes the words of God which make up the entire portion until this point. The final sentence presents the words of the prophet. Obviously the prophet is not identified as God. Like every Jewish soul, he is a son of God. This is the most basic difference between Judaism and any other misconception of religion.
This sentence literally reads “And now, the L-rd God has sent me, and His spirit.” The Radak explains that the prophet sometimes hears a direct voice spoken by God, and sometimes he may experience the vision of an angel sent to speak with him. According to this, “His spirit” means the angel sent to speak with him. The meaning of the verse is thus: “God has sent me, together with the angel who I saw in my prophecy, who was sent by God, to speak with me and to send me.”
Another reading of the word “His spirit” is “the spirit within me.” The prophet relates that he became inspired. This is the explanation of Rav Sa'adiah Gaon. The vav in the word v'rucho (“and His spirit”) translates as “with His spirit.” The meaning of the verse according to this reading is: “God has aroused His spirit within me, and with the power of that spirit has sent me to prophesize to the people. It is obvious that there are not three different divinities, God forbid, expressing themselves in these verses.
Bodhitharta said:
Quote This sentence literally reads “And now, the L-rd God has sent me, and His spirit.” The Radak explains that the prophet sometimes hears a direct voice spoken by God, and sometimes he may experience the vision of an angel sent to speak with him. According to this, “His spirit” means the angel sent to speak with him. The meaning of the verse is thus: “God has sent me, together with the angel who I saw in my prophecy, who was sent by God, to speak with me and to send me.” bd,
There is no evidence in the text whatsoever that the “I” who begins to speak in verse 12 becomes the prophet in verse 16. The One who identifies Himself as the First and the Last in verse 12 is the same who is sent by Jehovah in verse 16. And Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last in Revelation 1:17-18.http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa48.pdf
thinker
Hi TT,
So who was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit?
Clearly the one who was loved and will prosper was not the Lord God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2009,06:37) Hi TT,
So who was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit?
Clearly the one who was loved and will prosper was not the Lord God.
Nick,
The One who was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit is He who called Israel as is people, and who calls Himself the First and the Last in verse 12. He is the One who created the heavens and the earth in verse 13. He is the One who “was there” in the beginning (vs. 16).So why don't you tell us who the One is who was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit.
thinker
Hi TT,
Are you sure?
So Jesus Christ was sent by the Father from heaven and sent in to the desert by the Father's Spirit.Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,03:14) Bodhitharta said: Quote This sentence literally reads “And now, the L-rd God has sent me, and His spirit.” The Radak explains that the prophet sometimes hears a direct voice spoken by God, and sometimes he may experience the vision of an angel sent to speak with him. According to this, “His spirit” means the angel sent to speak with him. The meaning of the verse is thus: “God has sent me, together with the angel who I saw in my prophecy, who was sent by God, to speak with me and to send me.” bd,
There is no evidence in the text whatsoever that the “I” who begins to speak in verse 12 becomes the prophet in verse 16. The One who identifies Himself as the First and the Last in verse 12 is the same who is sent by Jehovah in verse 16. And Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last in Revelation 1:17-18.http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa48.pdf
thinker
This is how the Jews have understood these verses and they were the chosen ones to receive the oracles of God.Quote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2009,17:08) Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,03:14) Bodhitharta said: Quote This sentence literally reads “And now, the L-rd God has sent me, and His spirit.” The Radak explains that the prophet sometimes hears a direct voice spoken by God, and sometimes he may experience the vision of an angel sent to speak with him. According to this, “His spirit” means the angel sent to speak with him. The meaning of the verse is thus: “God has sent me, together with the angel who I saw in my prophecy, who was sent by God, to speak with me and to send me.” bd,
There is no evidence in the text whatsoever that the “I” who begins to speak in verse 12 becomes the prophet in verse 16. The One who identifies Himself as the First and the Last in verse 12 is the same who is sent by Jehovah in verse 16. And Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last in Revelation 1:17-18.http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa48.pdf
thinker
This is how the Jews have understood these verses and they were the chosen ones to receive the oracles of God.
bd,
Your point being….? Face it Bod; Isaiah 48:12-16 is an extremely difficult passage for the anti-trinitarians to overcome. It stares them right in the face. The One who is speaking says that He called Israel to be His people. Then He calls Himself the First and the Last (vs. 12). Jesus calls Himself the First and the Last in Revelation 1.Then He says that He created the heavens and the earth (vs. 13). Then He says that He is “sent” by the Lord God and His Spirit (vs. 16). It is conclusive to those who have the ears to hear.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,07:35) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2009,17:08) Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,03:14) Bodhitharta said: Quote This sentence literally reads “And now, the L-rd God has sent me, and His spirit.” The Radak explains that the prophet sometimes hears a direct voice spoken by God, and sometimes he may experience the vision of an angel sent to speak with him. According to this, “His spirit” means the angel sent to speak with him. The meaning of the verse is thus: “God has sent me, together with the angel who I saw in my prophecy, who was sent by God, to speak with me and to send me.” bd,
There is no evidence in the text whatsoever that the “I” who begins to speak in verse 12 becomes the prophet in verse 16. The One who identifies Himself as the First and the Last in verse 12 is the same who is sent by Jehovah in verse 16. And Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last in Revelation 1:17-18.http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa48.pdf
thinker
This is how the Jews have understood these verses and they were the chosen ones to receive the oracles of God.
bd,
Your point being….? Face it Bod; Isaiah 48:12-16 is an extremely difficult passage for the anti-trinitarians to overcome. It stares them right in the face. The One who is speaking says that He called Israel to be His people. Then He calls Himself the First and the Last (vs. 12). Jesus calls Himself the First and the Last in Revelation 1.Then He says that He created the heavens and the earth (vs. 13). Then He says that He is “sent” by the Lord God and His Spirit (vs. 16). It is conclusive to those who have the ears to hear.
thinker
Thinker,This passage in Isaiah is a perfect example of the unity of the three persons of God. One who denies it from this passage is simply blind to the obvious truth.
In Revelation chaper 1 God the Father is referred to as the Alpha and the Omega. Then later on in the same chapter, Jesus calls himself the First and the Last. The First and the Last has been used to refer to both the Father and the Son; so if Jesus began at the time of his birth, then how can he be the First and the Last? He cannot. That is how we know that Jesus existed before his human birth.
TC27
Hi TC,
We prefer the light of Scripture to the traditions of men.
There is no clear teaching in the bible that God is a trinity.Men have mused and tied verses to together to fabricate such presumptions.
But what you say is so clear is not written.
Your choice as to whom you would prefer to follow and there is more company found following man.Quote (thethinker @ July 06 2009,01:30) To All,
Let our non-trinitarian friends explain the following from Isaiah 48:12-16:12: “Listen to Me O Jacob, and Israel My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
13: Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together.
14: All of you, assemble yourselves and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His great pleasure in Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15: I, even I have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him and his way shall prosper.
16: Come near to Me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the LORD GOD and His Spirit have sent Me.”Commenting on the phrase “The Lord God and His Spirit has sent Me” Alan Cairns says this,
Quote The context after verse 12 shows that the speaker is the Messiah. He is clearly a divine person because in verse 12 he says, “I am he; I am the first, I am also the last….” In verse 16 He says, “From the time it was, there am I and the Lord God and His Spirit has sent Me.” What stronger evidence could be given on three divine persons, distinct from one another as to their personal properties, in unity of the divine essence? (Dictionary of Theological terms, Alan Cairns, Ambassador Emerald International, p. 496) Anti-trinitarians deny that Christ is the First and the Last. Yet the One who calls Himself the First and the Last in verse 12 says that He created the heavens and the earth (vs. 13) and that He was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit (vs. 16).
Therefore, Messiah is the First and the Last.
thinker
Hi TT,I have been studying this for over the past two days for several hours. I have quite a long post on word, but I think I might break it up a bit and give a different approach.
First and foremost we see the following from scripture,
1Ch 29:29 Now the acts of King David, first and last, indeed they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,
2Ch 9:29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer concerning Jeroboam the son of Nebat?
2Ch 12:15 The acts of Rehoboam, first and last, are they not written in the book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the seer concerning genealogies? And there were wars between Rehoboam and Jeroboam all their days.
2Ch 16:11 Note that the acts of Asa, first and last, are indeed written in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel.
2Ch 20:34 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoshaphat, first and last, indeed they are written in the book of Jehu the son of Hanani, which is mentioned in the book of the kings of Israel.
2Ch 25:26 Now the rest of the acts of Amaziah, from first to last, indeed are they not written in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel?
2Ch 28:26 Now the rest of his acts and all his ways, from first to last, indeed they are written in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel.
2Ch 35:27 and his deeds from first to last, indeed they are written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah.
Everyone has a first and last act or deed.
Jesus NEVER had his own act or deed, he did nothing of his own will but did everything that his Father wanted him to do. Therefore EVERYTHING that Jesus did was through God and thus was part of God's First and Last acts.
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
Ac 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know–
John 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.
What constitutes Jesus as the First and Last?
Ac 10:42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
Matthew 19:23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?” 28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
Mathew 20:12 saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.' 13 But he answered one of them and said, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?' 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”
Luke 13:23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' 26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 A
nd indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”Jesus is the judge of man, from the first to the last.
Ac 17:31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Jodi lee said:
Quote Jesus is the judge of man, from the first to the last. Ac 17:31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
The One who calls Himself the First and the Last says also that He is the creator (vs. 13) and He is sent by the Lord God and His Spirit (vs. 16). Seeing that you acknoweldge that the First and Last is Jesus then you must conclude that He is also the Creator, the One sent by the Lord God and His Spirit.
thinker
Proverbs 8:4 “To you, O men, I call out; I raise my voice to all mankind. 5 You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding. 6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say; I open my lips to speak what is right. 7 My mouth speaks what is true, for my lips detest wickedness. 8 All the words of my mouth are just; none of them is crooked or perverse. 9 To the discerning all of them are right; they are faultless to those who have knowledge. 10 Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold, 11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her. 12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion…………. 22″The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind 32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. 35 For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. 36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death.”
God’s Spirit of Wisdom was in the beginning with God, and it is that Spirit that created the plan of eternal salvation. By God’s Spirit of Wisdom came the plan that a man according to the seed of David would save the world. God’s Spirit of Wisdom is whom we must listen to, for this Spirit leads the way and gives righteous instruction. Whoever finds this Spirit of Wisdom finds life. Jesus found life because he followed that Spirit of Wisdom that comes from God.
Isaiah 48: 9 “For My name's sake I will defer My anger, And for My praise I will restrain it from you, So that I do not cut you off. 10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. 11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another. 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The Lord loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me.” 17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. 18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea. 19 Your descendants also would have been like the sand, And the offspring of your body like the grains of sand; His name would not have been cut off Nor destroyed from before Me.” 20 Go forth from Babylon! Flee from the Chaldeans! With a voice of singing, Declare, proclaim this, Utter it to the end of the earth; Say, “The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob!” 21 And they did not thirst When He led them through the deserts; He caused the waters to flow from the rock for them; He also split the rock, and the waters gushed out. 22 “There is no peace,” says the Lord, “for the wicked.”
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life– 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;
Lu 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Ac 3:26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
In the beginning was the Wisdom of God and in that Spirit was the plan of eternal salvation, and that plan was for a man to be sent into the world of the seed of David who would die and pay the penalty for man's sins.
1 Timothy 2: 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time.
Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the
dead.”The above scripture is clear proof that it was YHWH our Almighty Father who created the heavens and earth. Clear Scripture shows that it was by His Spirit of Wisdom that it was created. Clear Scripture shows that the plan of eternal salvation was in the beginning with God. Clear scripture shows that it was the MAN Jesus born of a woman with the blood of David, that FULFILLED that promise.
Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles– 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. 13 Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; 7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 09 2009,06:46) Proverbs 8:4 “To you, O men, I call out; I raise my voice to all mankind. 5 You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding. 6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say; I open my lips to speak what is right. 7 My mouth speaks what is true, for my lips detest wickedness. 8 All the words of my mouth are just; none of them is crooked or perverse. 9 To the discerning all of them are right; they are faultless to those who have knowledge. 10 Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold, 11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her. 12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion…………. 22″The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind 32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. 35 For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. 36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death.” God’s Spirit of Wisdom was in the beginning with God, and it is that Spirit that created the plan of eternal salvation. By God’s Spirit of Wisdom came the plan that a man according to the seed of David would save the world. God’s Spirit of Wisdom is whom we must listen to, for this Spirit leads the way and gives righteous instruction. Whoever finds this Spirit of Wisdom finds life. Jesus found life because he followed that Spirit of Wisdom that comes from God.
Isaiah 48: 9 “For My name's sake I will defer My anger, And for My praise I will restrain it from you, So that I do not cut you off. 10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. 11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another. 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The Lord loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me.” 17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. 18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea. 19 Your descendants also would have been like the sand, And the offspring of your body like the grains of sand; His name would not have been cut off Nor destroyed from before Me.” 20 Go forth from Babylon! Flee from the Chaldeans! With a voice of singing, Declare, proclaim this, Utter it to the end of the earth; Say, “The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob!” 21 And they did not thirst When He led them through the deserts; He caused the waters to flow from the rock for them; He also split the rock, and the waters gushed out. 22 “There is no peace,” says the Lord, “for the wicked.”
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life– 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;
Lu 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Ac 3:26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
In the beginning was the Wisdom of God and in that Spirit was the plan of eternal salvation, and that plan was for a man to be sent into the world of the seed of David who would die and pay the penalty for man's sins.
1 Timothy 2: 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time.
Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but
now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”The above scripture is clear proof that it was YHWH our Almighty Father who created the heavens and earth. Clear Scripture shows that it was by His Spirit of Wisdom that it was created. Clear Scripture shows that the plan of eternal salvation was in the beginning with God. Clear scripture shows that it was the MAN Jesus born of a woman with the blood of David, that FULFILLED that promise.
Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles– 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. 13 Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; 7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jodi Lee,
Proverbs is a poetic book and wisdom is personified. It has nothing to do with Christ being “brought forth.” Proverbs 8-9 depicts wisdom as a housewife.The context in Isaiah 48 explicitly says that the First and the Last is the creator and that He was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit. The trinity teaching is undeniable in this passage.
thinker
Hi TT,
You really need to decide whether God has parts or there are several who are God.
The two speculations are not consistent with each other.Jodi,
The first and last acts of a person have nothing to do with the statement by Jesus that he is the first and the last. Everyone has a first and last something. However, we cannot claim to BE the first and the last. Having a first and last act is completely different then BEING the first and the last.
TC27
Consistently we are shown that it was YHWH who created the heavens and the earth. Proverbs shows us that it was by His Spirit of Wisdom He created. Scripture also shows us that Jesus was a plan and that eternal salvation was also a plan from the beginning.
Jesus is the beginning and the end, he is the way to eternal life, the beginning of eternal life and the end of death. He is the beginning of all things made new and the end of what was.
He was in the beginning with God known to be that which would come into the world and fulfill God's purpose, that righteous men would dwell on earth. God would not have created heaven and earth in the first place, if He hadn't known what He could accomplish in all men, through the ONE MAN.
KJV Verse Count
Hebrew Word: Hwhy
Transliterated Word: Y@hovah
Book to Display: Deuteronomy
Verse Count: 438De 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
2Ki 19:15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
2Ch 2:12 Huram said moreover, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, that made heaven and earth, who hath given to David the king a wise son, endued with prudence and understanding, that might build an house for the LORD, and an house for his kingdom.
Isa 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the
heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
YHWH, the Father of Jesus Christ, made the heavens and earth through the foreknowledge of Jesus.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Who is the Son described in Hebrews? The God Son? No, NO! The Son that God made the world for and through was the Son that died on the cross, the man born of a woman of the seed of David.
TT, I believe you understand the following out of context brother,
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” 10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.” 13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Scripture tells us over and over again that it was YHWH who made the heavens and earth, He ALONE and no one else. So what is verse 10 telling us?
Well first let's notice that even Jesus says that God is our maker,
Mark 10:5 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female.' 7 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
again in,
Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
Jesus did not say that HE MADE THEM, he said God made them.
Just prior to Hebrews 10 we are told in verse 9 that Jesus loved righteousness and hated wickedness and he was anointed with the oil of gladness more then his companions. Clearly the scriptures are not speaking of a pre-existing spirit son but of Jesus born of a woman when it says, “And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.What beginning is the scripture referring to?
Lu 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” 25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?” And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.” 27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father. 28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” 30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
IMO the scriptures make it clear that God created the heavens and the earth by His foreknowledge of Jesus Christ. The heavens and earth were created for the future work that Jesus would do through God's Spirit working in him.
Think about TT, do you really think that the significance of Hebrews 10 is to reveal something different from what we've been told throughout the bible?
Is the scripture's purpose to reveal to us that it was actually Jesus who formed the mountains, that he created the stars?
I believe the scripture is telling us that from the beginning of his anointing with the Spirit when he began to preach, he was laying down the foundation of God's truth and God's way on earth, and that the works of his hands were of the heavens, meaning they came directly from God.
Notice what it says after verse 10,
11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.” 13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
The work of Jesus was of the Father. Jesus followed his Fathers will, he walked in God's ways perfectly. Unlike all prophets and messengers who have perished, he was the only one that did n
ot see corruption, but was raised from the dead.Ephesians 3:9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.' 22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know– 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' 29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
There is no message that David knew of a spirit son coming to give up his godhood and be a man with his blood. That is NOT what the scriptures say.
Romans 15:7 Therefore receive one another, just as Christ also received us, to the glory of God. 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, 9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written: “For this reason I will confess to You among the Gentiles, And sing to Your name.” 10 And again he says: “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people!” 11 And again: “Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles! Laud Him, all you peoples!” 12 And again, Isaiah says: “There shall be a root of Jesse; And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”
The prophesy was always a man coming to earth, not a spirit son.
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