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Christianity tries to show that the Torah (called the “Law” in the GT) was incomplete and that it was flawed because no one could perfectly obey it. What does Tanakh say? From the Christian ESV:
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Deu 30:11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
Deu 30:14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.
Psa 12:7 You, O LORD, will keep them; you will guard us from this generation forever.Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
Psa 19:8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;Psa 119:7 I will praise you with an upright heart, when I learn your righteous rules.
Psa 119:8 I will keep your statutes; do not utterly forsake me!
Psa 119:9 How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word.
Psa 119:10 With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!
Psa 119:11 I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.Psa 119:98 Your commandment makes me wiser than my enemies, for it is ever with me.
Psa 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers, for your testimonies are my meditation.
Psa 119:100 I understand more than the aged, for I keep your precepts.Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.
====================================Well, so much for the imperfect and incomplete theory.
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 04 2008,00:13) Christianity tries to show that the Torah (called the “Law” in the GT) was incomplete and that it was flawed because no one could perfectly obey it. What does Tanakh say? From the Christian ESV: =====================================
Deu 30:11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
Deu 30:14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.
Psa 12:7 You, O LORD, will keep them; you will guard us from this generation forever.Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
Psa 19:8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;Psa 119:7 I will praise you with an upright heart, when I learn your righteous rules.
Psa 119:8 I will keep your statutes; do not utterly forsake me!
Psa 119:9 How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word.
Psa 119:10 With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!
Psa 119:11 I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.Psa 119:98 Your commandment makes me wiser than my enemies, for it is ever with me.
Psa 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers, for your testimonies are my meditation.
Psa 119:100 I understand more than the aged, for I keep your precepts.Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.
====================================Well, so much for the imperfect and incomplete theory.
No just morally suspect. That is why Jesus taught the Law according to the Essenes.Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 04 2008,00:19) Unless you have any such evidence, then all you supply is conjecture.
Not sure I understand. The evidence that Jesus was an Essene specifically a Nazarene Essene is pretty strong. We have alot of evidence concerning their teachings as found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.The Essenes did not believe the Law as found in the Torah of the Pharisees was “good”. They seperated themselves and taught a different meaning of “good”.
There is a lot of evidence.
Here is some evidence for you SOL. From http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/ebionites.html
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The Ebionite/Nazarene movement was made up of mostly Jewish/Israelite followers of John the Baptizer and later Jesus, who were concentrated in Palestine and surrounding regions and led by “James the Just” (the oldest brother of Jesus), and flourished between the years 30-80 C.E. They were zealous for the Torah and continued to walk in all the mitzvot (commandments) as enlightened by their Rabbi and Teacher, but accepted non-Jews into their fellowship on the basis of some version of the Noachide Laws (Acts 15 and 21).The Essenes (possibly from 'Ossim, meaning “Doers of Torah”), who wrote or collected the Dead Sea Scrolls, pioneered certain aspects of this “Way” over 150 years before the birth of Jesus. They were a wilderness (out in the Arava, near the Dead Sea–based on Isaiah 40:3), baptizing (mikveh of repentance as entrance requirement into their fellowship), new covenant, messianic/apocalyptic group (they were expecting three redemptive Figures—the Prophet like Moses and his two Messiahs), that saw themselves as the remnant core of God's faithful people—preparing the Way for the return of YHVH's Glory (Kavod) as set forth in Isaiah 40-66. They too referred to themselves as the Way, the Poor, the Saints, the New Covenanters, Children of Light, and so forth. Perhaps their most common designation was the Yachad–the brotherhood or community, and they referred to themselves as brother and sister. They were bitterly opposed to the corrupt Priests in Jerusalem, to the Herods, and even to the Pharisees whom they saw as compromising with that establishment to get power and influence from the Hellenistic/Roman powers. They had their own developed Halacha (interpretation of Torah), some aspects of which Jesus picks up (ideal of no divorce, not using oaths, etc.). They followed one they called the True Teacher (Teacher of Righteousness) whom most scholars believe lived in the 1st century B.C.E. and was opposed and possibly killed by the Hasmonean King/Priests at the instigation of the Pharisees. John the Baptizer seems to arise out of this context and rekindle the apocalyptic fervor of the movement in the early decades of the first century C.E.
I use Ebionite/Nazarene as an historical designation to refer to those original, 1st century, largely Palestinian followers of Jesus, gathered around Yaaqov (James) in Jerusalem, who were zealous for the Torah, but saw themselves as part of the New Covenant Way inaugurated by their “True Teacher” Jesus.
====================================So much for these folks NOT believing in YHVH or following the same Torah. The Torah they rejected was not the written, but the oral Torah, later put into writing in the Talmud.
If you are going to seek a “new” relgion, at least be informed. What you keep putting forward is modern Nazarene Esseneism, which is gnostic and occultic. This movement does not match historic Nazarene/Essene ways.
Hi Tow,
Sin is the problem and priesthood is the issue.
All men sin and not all know they have [or there would not be verses about unknown sin]
Once a year the priest went into the temple to sacrifice on behalf of the sins of the people.
That priesthood is finishes and now we have an eternal priest of the order of Melchizedek.
He has torn the temple curtain of his flesh and now the temple is in heaven where he ministers on our behalf.
There is now no forgiveness under the OT.
Sin is the problem.
Now we only have the way of christ for jew and gentileQuote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 03 2008,12:23) Hi Tow,
Sin is the problem and priesthood is the issue.Show me in Tanakh.
Quote All men sin and not all know they have [or there would not be verses about unknown sin]
Once a year the priest went into the temple to sacrifice on behalf of the sins of the people.
That priesthood is finishes and now we have an eternal priest of the order of Melchizedek.Show me in Tanakh where YHVH is going to replace the Levitical priesthood.
Quote He has torn the temple curtain of his flesh and now the temple is in heaven where he ministers on our behalf.
There is now no forgiveness under the OT.
Sin is the problem.
Now we only have the way of christ for jew and gentile
Show me in Tanakh where G-d made such a promise. Show me why Ezekial 40-44 is no longer valid.Without proof, your words are just empty opinion.
Here is proof against the lie found in the GT:
Num 18:23 But the Levites shall do the service of the Tent of Meeting, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations; and among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Your GT cannot be about YHVH because if so, it just turned Him into a liar.
Hi Tow,
You may feel brave enough to call God a liar.
Num 8[kjv]
23And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,24This is it that belongeth unto the Levites: from twenty and five years old and upward they shall go in to wait upon the service of the tabernacle of the congregation:
25And from the age of fifty years they shall cease waiting upon the service thereof, and shall serve no more:
26But shall minister with their brethren in the tabernacle of the congregation, to keep the charge, and shall do no service. Thus shalt thou do unto the Levites touching their charge.
Nick,
You certainly struggle with interpretation. Anyone can see this passage refers to the length of service of each individual, not the perpetual state of the Levitical priesthood.
Shall I hold out straws so you may grasp for them?
What ARE you talking about? Which verse? Num 18:22? You can check out the various translations here. All say the same thing with slightly different wording: forever.
Hi tow,
My mistake sorry.
The levites indeed are appointed to the service and to carry their own sin but now the temple is no longer on earth but in heaven and a new priest-Christ Jesus.Hi tow,
That temple as also shown in Rev 22, does not exist physically now but will and we in Christ shall be kings and priests to our God.Compare Rev 11 and you will see the spiritual temple exists now [Eph 2.20]and soon the measuring will be complete and those still in the outer court of religion will see no mercy.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 03 2008,15:33) Hi tow,
That temple as also shown in Rev 22, does not exist physically now but will and we in Christ shall be kings and priests to our God.Compare Rev 11 and you will see the spiritual temple exists now [Eph 2.20]and soon the measuring will be complete and those still in the outer court of religion will see no mercy.
Compare Eze 40-44 to thisRev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
Which one is correct Nick? Did G-d lie to Ezekiel?
Eze 40:47 And he measured the court, a hundred cubits long and a hundred cubits broad, a square. And the altar was in front of the temple.
Eze 41:5 Then he measured the wall of the temple, six cubits thick, and the breadth of the side chambers, four cubits, all around the temple.
Eze 41:13 Then he measured the temple, a hundred cubits long; and the yard and the building with its walls, a hundred cubits long;
Eze 43:10 “As for you, son of man, describe to the house of Israel the temple, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and they shall measure the plan.
======================================So are you saying they are measuring G-d here? But here's the ringer Nick
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Eze 44:10 But the Levites who went far from me, going astray from me after their idols when Israel went astray, shall bear their punishment.
Eze 44:11 They shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the temple and ministering in the temple. They shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before the people, to minister to them.
================================Wait Nick, I thought you said the Levitical line was through? And what of sacrifices?
Your GT has come up severely wanting.
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