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Quote don't arrogantly include me in that. You use the word arrogant.
Ha ha. You have no clue about the cause of the universe, but you know with almost certainty that it wasn't God or someone. Of course you are not arrogant, and that is why you pin that to others aye?
Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 03 2008,22:07) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2008,21:25) As for repentance that is obviously something that God requires. But I also think that some sins are overlooked if a person has no knowledge of it. Not sure if this fits in with Lot's situation. But God chose to save him for a reason.
Is the sin of not knowing Jesus as your saviour overlooked if a person has no knowledge of Him?Is ignorance of the law, or ignorance of His existence an excuse?
Tim
Hi Tim,Then perhaps…. Sin Is what we do to others, the effect that we cause in other humans Lives, that sinning against yourself alone, becomes as a less minor offense?
Its all about learning to become responsible with our freedom?
the Law is Sin Because it effects others, and if they break one they become guilty of breaking all…So iT SAYETH.charity
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,22:04) Quote don't arrogantly include me in that. You use the word arrogant.
Ha ha. You have no clue about the cause of the universe, but you know with almost certainty that it wasn't God or someone. Of course you are not arrogant, and that is why you pin that to others aye?
It is arrogant for you to admit failings on behalf of others. If you were my defense lawyer it might be reasonable but you are playing the part of defense lawyer for a god that is morally more bankrupt than anyone in prison today. I don't hear you admitting his failings on his behalf.Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 04 2008,05:37) Hi t8, Quote But I repeat that I am not prepared to judge Lot as you seem to be. I know sin is sin, but I also know that we all sin, albeit in different ways. It seems hypocritical to say how sinful someone else is when we are all sinners. I am not going to get caught in that trap. We should be more concerned about our own sin than the sin of others.
Perhaps I haven't made my beef clear? I understand how sinful I am and wouldn't dare judge Lot today. My beef is with the fact that God didn't judge Lot but judged Sodom. I don't think that was fair. But as I also said, perhaps it was because Lot asked for forgiveness or perhaps we do not have all the information at this time. Believe me, t8, I wouldn't cast the first stone. Unlike our David here, I do know what it is like to be drunk out of your mind….and a few other unmentionables. I wouldn't dare say that Lot was more sinful than myself.Quote Rather than saying that I am making excuses Mandy, maybe just maybe it is possible that it is your own lack of faith in God that is trying to make me condemn Lot? Otherwise, why is arguing that Lot was considered righteous as it is written making an excuse? Why do I need to make any excuses if I am not Lot.
Oh, certainly it is my lack of faith! Of course, it is. I won't deny that at all. But I'm also trying to make those of you who defend the faith realize that some things are hard to reconcile no matter how hard you try. We HAVE made some pretty good excuses for Lot. I'll even buy some of them for a dollar. But they still don't add up when you consider his sin versus sodom's. This is just one example where God has chosen to discipline/put to death one clan of people for evil and kept alive another clan of people for righteous reasons – even tho they also committed evil. There are other examples of this same pattern. I guess we'll never know why. Remain faithful, regardless……Thanks,
Mandy
Greetings Mandy…..His ways are higher than ours,what is unfair to us could very well be justice to him…The judgement of Sodom and Gemmorah was the result of an entire city taking and partaking of one another in ways that demonstrated the level of wickedness that prevailed….So the story depicts…Hi theodorej
Quote His ways are higher than ours,what is unfair to us could very well be justice to him…
So you know your god and ‘his’ motives well enough to tell everyone else how they should behave but when pressed on the point suddenly you can’t understand god’s motives after all. That seems convenient.Quote The judgement of Sodom and Gemmorah was the result of an entire city taking and partaking of one another in ways that demonstrated the level of wickedness that prevailed….So the story depicts…
I would imagine these would be exactly the kind of verses that a zealous military leader could use to justify blanket bombing of a city. I find it morally obscene for a scripture writer to claim that an entire population deserved destruction. If indeed it is divinely inspired then it is the god that is obscene.
Do you have an opinion about the justice of your god’s alleged killing of innocent people alongside ‘sinners’ (as also occurs elsewhere in scripture), or do you use the ‘It must be god’s justice and we can’t really understand it’ routine? I think you would have the makings of a model citizen of the Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea if that were the case.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 05 2008,08:41) Hi theodorej Quote His ways are higher than ours,what is unfair to us could very well be justice to him…
So you know your god and ‘his’ motives well enough to tell everyone else how they should behave but when pressed on the point suddenly you can’t understand god’s motives after all. That seems convenient.Quote The judgement of Sodom and Gemmorah was the result of an entire city taking and partaking of one another in ways that demonstrated the level of wickedness that prevailed….So the story depicts…
I would imagine these would be exactly the kind of verses that a zealous military leader could use to justify blanket bombing of a city. I find it morally obscene for a scripture writer to claim that an entire population deserved destruction. If indeed it is divinely inspired then it is the god that is obscene.
Do you have an opinion about the justice of your god’s alleged killing of innocent people alongside ‘sinners’ (as also occurs elsewhere in scripture), or do you use the ‘It must be god’s justice and we can’t really understand it’ routine? I think you would have the makings of a model citizen of the Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea if that were the case.Stuart
Greetings Stu…..Imust say it is not my place to tell anyone how they should live,I speak with the authority that comes from knowing ones self and my opinions ,comments and beliefs are a product of that.
Gods ways are higher than mine and for that reason I dare not judge or question him…What I do know is that sin is the transgression of the law and death is one of the many consequences of breaking the law.. If you find my belief system in contradiction than I have obviously failed to communicate effectively…Quote (Stu @ Oct. 04 2008,22:45) It is arrogant for you to admit failings on behalf of others.
Why is that?If a person accuses someone of doing something that they are doing themselves, then why is pointing that out not the right thing to do?
And also, how do you know what is right and wrong. Most people who reject God also reject right and wrong because they reject any notion of a law giver. Are you different in that aspect?
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 10 2008,11:55) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 04 2008,22:45) It is arrogant for you to admit failings on behalf of others.
Why is that?If a person accuses someone of doing something that they are doing themselves, then why is pointing that out not the right thing to do?
And also, how do you know what is right and wrong. Most people who reject God also reject right and wrong because they reject any notion of a law giver. Are you different in that aspect?
Whether pointing it out is the right thing to do or not is not the question. The accusation 'we are all sinners' is arrogant. It is pretty easy to dismiss a person who makes a blanket claim of doing 'wrong' when the accuser is not saying what specific act is considered immoral / whatever. The police and judiciary never do it, and the person making the claim just ends up sounding like Digruntled of Khandallah phoning a talk show and bleating on about the state of the world without actually saying specifically who is responsible for what.So I ask you, what specific act do you know beyond reasonable doubt I have committed that you object to on biblical law?
I reject pretender law-givers because I am fortunate enough to live in a democracy and, by a peculiar and round-about methd, I AM the lawgiver, as are all voters.
Stuart
Hi theodorej
Quote Imust say it is not my place to tell anyone how they should live,I speak with the authority that comes from knowing ones self and my opinions ,comments and beliefs are a product of that.
Fair enough that you claim experience as a basis to offer advice, although perhaps people might feel patronised if the advice was unsolicited and unwanted. I can’t imagine you would do that though.Quote Gods ways are higher than mine and for that reason I dare not judge or question him…
For reasons I have already bored you with, I think smiters should be placed lower than non-smiters in the ethical order. Should I count you as a friend or collaborator in the event that another Hitler gained control of large areas of the ‘free world’? In North Korea the leader IS the god. Can I count on you to know when the god needs opposing?Quote What I do know is that sin is the transgression of the law and death is one of the many consequences of breaking the law.. If you find my belief system in contradiction than I have obviously failed to communicate effectively…
You have not said whether you agree that divine smiting is a just punishment. Do we agree that democracy is the only fair way to decide how we want our national collectives to operate? If so, what place is there for another agent, independently operating ‘His’ own justice system and a seemingly incomprehensible and arbitrarily executed one at that?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 10 2008,18:24) Hi theodorej Quote Imust say it is not my place to tell anyone how they should live,I speak with the authority that comes from knowing ones self and my opinions ,comments and beliefs are a product of that.
Fair enough that you claim experience as a basis to offer advice, although perhaps people might feel patronised if the advice was unsolicited and unwanted. I can’t imagine you would do that though.Quote Gods ways are higher than mine and for that reason I dare not judge or question him…
For reasons I have already bored you with, I think smiters should be placed lower than non-smiters in the ethical order. Should I count you as a friend or collaborator in the event that another Hitler gained control of large areas of the ‘free world’? In North Korea the leader IS the god. Can I count on you to know when the god needs opposing?Quote What I do know is that sin is the transgression of the law and death is one of the many consequences of breaking the law.. If you find my belief system in contradiction than I have obviously failed to communicate effectively…
You have not said whether you agree that divine smiting is a just punishment. Do we agree that democracy is the only fair way to decide how we want our national collectives to operate? If so, what place is there for another agent, independently operating ‘His’ own justice system and a seemingly incomprehensible and arbitrarily executed one at that?Stuart
Greetings Stu….Iam not unfamiliar with the protocol of the intelligence community…..Based on your analogy I would come down on the side of the non/smiters. The one thing that you and I differ on is, where God fits in…In my world God is the supreme creator of all that is…If another Hitler should happen to show up, rest assure, I will be able to recognize him and Iam sure you would also…Iam sure we could be friends and may even find ourselves of the same mind…The fundamental difference between us the existance of God and his presense or lack of the same in each of our lives…I try not to offer advice unsolicited….I simply declare my position for your approval or disapproval…Hi theodorej
Of course my approval or disapproval is irrelevant. Now that god seems to have stopped admiting to smiting (although many evangelicals and others will attribute human deaths to 'him' still) do you think he is deserving of forgiveness?
Stuart
Quote So I ask you, what specific act do you know beyond reasonable doubt I have committed that you object to on biblical law? According to “biblical law” he doesn't have to know a specific act you committed for him to understand that you aren't perfect or that you sin, a word, which means to 'miss the mark', that is, the mark or standard set by God–because according to biblical law, every man sins.
Quote But my point was that Lot was supposed to be righteous. He was also aware of the unwritten and written “laws' of God. Incest is clearly written. Yet he was not destroyed but the town that he came from was!! –mandy
Maybe I'm missing something, but didn't Moses who lived several hundred years after Lot, record the commands?
Moses was born in 1593 B.C.E., in Egypt, being the son of Amram, the grandson of Kohath, and the great-grandson of Levi. Great, great grandson of Jacob (israel), Great great great grandson of Isaac, great great great great grandson of Abraham, Lot's Uncle.Yes, the laws against incest were clearly written, but much after Lot's time. But it doesn't matter, the elderly Lot was not really guilty of incest, having been drugged, and essentially raped by his daughters.
Quote Um, Dave, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the male anatomy is such that you have to WANT IT to be able to function properly….there is a level of desire that needs to be there to start the mechanics of it all, right? yes, while you're awake. But not necessarily so while asleep.
http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/1518.html
There's also a comment on there about being over 60.Quote But my point was that Lot was supposed to be righteous.
I wonder if Alcohol may make some people feel less inhibited about having sex. I think it just might. Remember, his daughters got him so drunk he didn't know when he layed down and when he got up. He was drunk.Can a man function this way when he's drunk? A quick online poll showed that 24% can. 10% can't. The rest haven't tried or noticed. At least, that's what they say. I didn't feel like doing more than 10 seconds of research on this.
Quote Mandy,
You say it was written but that came hundreds of years later did it not.–seeking.
Yes, it did.
Quote Did Lot have the written law? That would be sort of impossible.
Quote (david @ Oct. 14 2008,17:57) Quote So I ask you, what specific act do you know beyond reasonable doubt I have committed that you object to on biblical law? According to “biblical law” he doesn't have to know a specific act you committed for him to understand that you aren't perfect or that you sin, a word, which means to 'miss the mark', that is, the mark or standard set by God–because according to biblical law, every man sins.
The assumption that I sin is a smear but making baseless allegations is at least consistent with having a baseless faith.A court that passes judgement without evidence is a kangaroo court and is worthy of no criminal.
Stuart
Quote (david @ Oct. 14 2008,18:30) Quote Um, Dave, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the male anatomy is such that you have to WANT IT to be able to function properly….there is a level of desire that needs to be there to start the mechanics of it all, right? yes, while you're awake. But not necessarily so while asleep.
http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/1518.html
There's also a comment on there about being over 60.Quote But my point was that Lot was supposed to be righteous.
I wonder if Alcohol may make some people feel less inhibited about having sex. I think it just might. Remember, his daughters got him so drunk he didn't know when he layed down and when he got up. He was drunk.Can a man function this way when he's drunk? A quick online poll showed that 24% can. 10% can't. The rest haven't tried or noticed. At least, that's what they say. I didn't feel like doing more than 10 seconds of research on this.
David,You crack me up!! Leave it to you to research “nightime woodies”.
Well, my friend, there is a difference between experiencing a nightime erection and having a women try to use the thing to procreate with. Good try but keep looking…….
Seriously, if you want to believe this nonesense about Lot and his daughter's, go right ahead. But no matter how you explain this series of events away – they still happened.
Moses gave the written law on tablets but there was an oral law given in Leviticus that spoke to incest.
David, if I had to give a prize to the best debater here – it would be you! That's a compliment, by the way.
Love,
MandyQuote Moses gave the written law on tablets but there was an oral law given in Leviticus that spoke to incest. David, if I had to give a prize to the best debater here – it would be you! That's a compliment, by the way.
Well thankyou mandy.
I don't really consider myself a debater, just someone who recognizes truth. Speaking of which—Moses, the oral law, the written law, all were given to the Israelites. The Israelites where the offspring of Israel (Jacob) who was the offspring of Isaac, who was of Abraham, who was Lot's Uncle.We're told at Gen 25:7 that Abraham lived to a good old age of 175.
Abraham was 100 when he had Isaac (gen 17:17). (Maybe Lot was already dead by this time.)
Then, Isaac had to have Jacob, and then Jacob had to have THE NATION OF ISRAEL, to which the law was given.
So, some time passed.Lot knew of no law, written or oral.
But, like david, he could have thought about what he was told orally about God, what was passed down. But this was no law.David:
Quote We're told at Gen 25:7 that Abraham lived to a good old age of 175. And you accuse me of being deluded?!
Stuart
Quote And you accuse me of being deluded?! It wasn't an accusation so much as a statement of fact.
Contradictions are different than not knowing the answer. There have been numerous times where we don't know the answer to something, only to learn the answer upon further research or further time.
Yet, you seem to think not having the answer at this time equals being wrong. That is what I am talking about when I accurately used the word. I am sorry for being unclear.
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