The Too Hard Basket

[Stu]

t8

Quote

It is also not too hard to see that which remains in Revelation coming to past even though it was written around 2 millenia ago.

Once you accept that with god anything is possible, then Revelation can match whatever events you want it to. Of course you could put 'not' in front of every prophetic statement in Revelation and it would pretty much match just as well.

Stuart

[Not3in1]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 30 2008,23:01)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 10 2008,04:36) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2008,01:27) Are you guys rebelling again? No T8, Just waiting for an answer to this question. Are things in the “too hard basket” impossible to answer? When I read things like the story of Lot and his daughters I always think of 2 Timothy. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Ti 3:16 Which one of those things is that scripture profitibale for? Certainly not instruction in rightenous. Certainly not doctrine. It could be reproof or correction except that the bible says nothing about what they did being wrong. It was just one more case where the men of the bible could blame women for what men do. It was eve's fault that Adam ate the forbidden fruit. It was his daughters fault that Lot got drunk and slept with them. It was Delilah's fault that Samson came to an untimely end. It was the virgin's fault that someone raped her and she did not scream loud enough. Did God only create women in order to tempt men? Tim Tim. The bible records history whether good or bad. It also contains prophecy and teachings. You have to decipher which is which and it really isn't hard to do. e.g., Luke 1 says: Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught. See what that gospel says about itself? Approaching scripture as the pure words of God where people were sort like zombies programmed for automatic writing is only going to make you either unreasonable in your judgment of scripture, or you will reject it when you see things like you quoted. If you understand what inspire means, then you can know that I might have been inspired to even write this post, even though I never went into a zombie-puppet state with my fingers just typing out the keys. People are inspired by all sorts of things. But being inspired by God is the best inspiration. I think one of the strongest witness in scripture besides the knowledge of health, teachings that seem to encourage the opposite to what you naturally think, yet work wonderfully, would have to be the fact that so much of it is prophecy and has come to pass. It is also not too hard to see that which remains in Revelation coming to past even though it was written around 2 millenia ago.

In my opinion, this falls short. It doesn't answer the tough questions that Tim is asking. Not at all.

t8, try again please. Tim's questions were direct enough. Concering Lot, was the word given for correction? For encouragement? Was it prophesy? I don't see the story surrounding Lot knocking-up his daughter's in a drunken orgy fitting into any of these catagories, sorry.

[Not3in1]

Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 30 2008,02:53)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 29 2008,06:25) Quote (david @ Sep. 28 2008,16:16) Also, God’s Word strongly condemns drunkenness.  Of course, this account doesn't show him to be a drunkard, but does illustrate the effects of alcohol. And the effects of alcohol make you want to have sex with your kids?  Come on, David. Why can't the honest Christian just admit that there are some story's in the Bible that don't add up.  Instead you say this helps us to trust the bible more because these hideous crimes against God's law were not hidden from us but exposed?  Perhaps.  But then God blesses the same one who broke the laws of incest BUT ennihilated those who broke another law of homosexuality?  Something doesn't sound right here. But I know you can make it sound right, David.  Your response will show us how we can believe both that God is love and just EVEN in the light of these contradictions. Thanks, Mandy Greetings Mandy…..Achohol effects every body differently some drunks get violent,some get silly and some succumb to darker side of their nature….God speaks of how the wine can make the heart of the man merry….At same time he speaks of the danger of strong drink and how a drunkard can never enter the kingdom….Let us not the forget the transformation of the water into wine and, I might add that comments among those who sampled it said that the best was saved for last….This did not sound like it was grape juice they were drinking….Jesus raised a cup containing wine at the last supper…..As we all know there are numerous mentions in the bible that speaks to the use and abuse of alchohol….

Yes, but my point was that Lot was supposedly righteous AND God did not punish him for the so-called lawless acts that he committed with his own kin (shame, shame). Instead, I believe David is saying that a “people” came from such horrid behavior.

Read the story of Lot again for me, will ya? Please tell me why God would completely destroy a town for homosexuality and Lot's wife for looking back……and not destroy Lot for incest (which was clearly against God's provisions).

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 01 2008,04:44)

Read the story of Lot again for me, will ya?  Please tell me why God would completely destroy a town for homosexuality and Lot's wife for looking back……and not destroy Lot for incest (which was clearly against God's provisions).

Or for that matter, why Lot was considered righteous to begin with. He offered his daughter to an unruly mob of men to do with as they saw fit.
If I knew a man that would do such a thing, he would not be on my list of friends.

Tim

[charity]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 01 2008,11:20)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 01 2008,04:44) Read the story of Lot again for me, will ya?  Please tell me why God would completely destroy a town for homosexuality and Lot's wife for looking back……and not destroy Lot for incest (which was clearly against God's provisions). Or for that matter, why Lot was considered righteous to begin with. He offered his daughter to an unruly mob of men to do with as they saw fit. If I knew a man that would do such a thing, he would not be on my list of friends. Tim

Hi Tim And Mandy

I think the most spiritual beings should also be seen a the most courageous.

I am sure that a good Father would be concerned over one Man wrongly using his daughter let alone delivering her to Mob.

Jesus even stepped between the stones and the target to protect a female, and even if he was half the cores then he acted with courage that she didn't pay the full price alone.

charity

[Not3in1]

Another thing I was pondering concerning Lot and the girls.  It says that they laid with their Father and then conceived.  Hmmmm?

Were they both ovulating at the same time?  Did it work like “magic” and only take one time of intercourse for them to conceive?  This is highly doubtful.  It doesn't work that way usually.  This story is becoming more strange the longer I ponder it.

[charity]

yep, there sure are some primitive thoughts, brought into the 21 st cemetery, HEHE, Daughters were of no use really, THIS ties in with the poor brothers, that HAD to take their dead brothers wife and rise up children to them, that the brother will not lose some myth reward, how ON EARTH DID THEY THINK THIS WOULD WORK? believing just don't make it true!

It Is truly time to understand their thinking and evolve with understanding Mandy.

charity

[charity]

Mandy its sad that people are enchanted with myths, and behave strangely, foolishness is blind to see it as weird, even as people go to church and drink GRAPE juice, and pretend to partake in eating human flesh and its their brother Jesus blood then drink…they are caught back 2000 yrs ago, behaving primitive as the Romans, just with out robes on.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 01 2008,04:41)

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 30 2008,23:01) Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 10 2008,04:36) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2008,01:27) Are you guys rebelling again? No T8, Just waiting for an answer to this question. Are things in the “too hard basket” impossible to answer? When I read things like the story of Lot and his daughters I always think of 2 Timothy. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Ti 3:16 Which one of those things is that scripture profitibale for? Certainly not instruction in rightenous. Certainly not doctrine. It could be reproof or correction except that the bible says nothing about what they did being wrong. It was just one more case where the men of the bible could blame women for what men do. It was eve's fault that Adam ate the forbidden fruit. It was his daughters fault that Lot got drunk and slept with them. It was Delilah's fault that Samson came to an untimely end. It was the virgin's fault that someone raped her and she did not scream loud enough. Did God only create women in order to tempt men? Tim Tim. The bible records history whether good or bad. It also contains prophecy and teachings. You have to decipher which is which and it really isn't hard to do. e.g., Luke 1 says: Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught. See what that gospel says about itself? Approaching scripture as the pure words of God where people were sort like zombies programmed for automatic writing is only going to make you either unreasonable in your judgment of scripture, or you will reject it when you see things like you quoted. If you understand what inspire means, then you can know that I might have been inspired to even write this post, even though I never went into a zombie-puppet state with my fingers just typing out the keys. People are inspired by all sorts of things. But being inspired by God is the best inspiration. I think one of the strongest witness in scripture besides the knowledge of health, teachings that seem to encourage the opposite to what you naturally think, yet work wonderfully, would have to be the fact that so much of it is prophecy and has come to pass. It is also not too hard to see that which remains in Revelation coming to past even though it was written around 2 millenia ago. In my opinion, this falls short.  It doesn't answer the tough questions that Tim is asking.  Not at all. t8, try again please.  Tim's questions were direct enough.  Concering Lot, was the word given for correction?  For encouragement?  Was it prophesy?  I don't see the story surrounding Lot knocking-up his daughter's in a drunken orgy fitting into any of these catagories, sorry.

Not 3, I think it is just history of something that happened. History is a good teacher and we learn from others mistakes and successes.

I don't think it is a parable or something that we are to follow.

I think my previous answer is good enough.

Do I really have to spell out which is what?

Surely anyone can determine prophecy from history, from God speaking.

Thus says the LORD is usually followed by a message given by God. History comes out in a story or a set of recorded events, and prophecy is often symbolic and uses words like “it will come to pass”.

Do I really need to explain such things?

If anything, many stories in scripture just show how lost and sinful man is. Even the best of us, often do the worse things. Moses for example was a great man of God yet he murdered. Have you murdered anybody? Are you greater than Moses if you answered no?

The other thing is that it is easy to judge people through your eyes and values, but we often forget that our values and society are shaped by things good and bad that have happened in the past. Will a generation 1000 years from now be horrified by your actions? Is our generation better than the one of Lot's time?

I prefer to leave that to God myself. I am not going to judge.

Lot has to give an account as I do. If I judge him harshly, then I will be judged harshly too. I prefer a merciful judgement myself, but I admit that I would be feeling quite uneasy if I did what Lot did. But then again, we could all feel uneasy about something we ourselves have done.

If the worse thing you did was written in a book for future generations to read, could they rightly be horrified too?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Stu @ Sep. 30 2008,23:21)

t8 Quote It is also not too hard to see that which remains in Revelation coming to past even though it was written around 2 millenia ago. Once you accept that with god anything is possible, then Revelation can match whatever events you want it to.  Of course you could put 'not' in front of every prophetic statement in Revelation and it would pretty much match just as well. Stuart

Pre 1948, men read in scripture that God would lead the Jews back to Israel.

Many didn't believe it would happen. After being scattered for about 2500 years, it came to pass in 1948.

Bible prophecy is certainly hidden away from the wicked as it says that the wicked will not understand.

[Not3in1]

Hi t8,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

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Do I really have to spell out which is what? Surely anyone can determine prophecy from history, from God speaking.

You must realize that there are those of us who are much more simpleminded than yourself. For instance, it is not obvious to me or to Tim (it sounds like) whether the Lot story is useful for teaching? or for encouragement? or whatever else the bible says the word of God is used for. Is there a difference then when certain parts of the word are used for prophecy and other's for history…..should they equally be there for teaching, encouragement and other's? If so the original question was, for what good use is the story of Lot and his daughter's? It's just a history lesson then? If so, what are we supposed to learn? Not to get drunk and have sex with our daughters? But even that doesn't seem like the lesson coming forth because, well, read the story again for yourself. I'm utterly confused. Nothing new there. 😉

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The other thing is that it is easy to judge people through your eyes and values, but we often forget that our values and society are shaped by things good and bad that have happened in the past. Will a generation 1000 years from now be horrified by your actions? Is our generation better than the one of Lot's time?

God himself said that having sex with such a close relation was prohibited. It has nothing to to with personal judgement on my part or anyone elses.

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I prefer to leave that to God myself. I am not going to judge.

So if your wife had sex with your son you would leave that for God to judge – you wouldn't say or do anything? Sorry, just bringing it a little closer to home and our reality.

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If the worse thing you did was written in a book for future generations to read, could they rightly be horrified too?

No. Because our society is much more accepting of various behaviors. Back in Lot's day – you got turned into salt and murdered for such behavior.

[Stu]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 01 2008,22:58)

Quote (Stu @ Sep. 30 2008,23:21) t8 Quote It is also not too hard to see that which remains in Revelation coming to past even though it was written around 2 millenia ago. Once you accept that with god anything is possible, then Revelation can match whatever events you want it to.  Of course you could put 'not' in front of every prophetic statement in Revelation and it would pretty much match just as well. Stuart Pre 1948, men read in scripture that God would lead the Jews back to Israel. Many didn't believe it would happen. After being scattered for about 2500 years, it came to pass in 1948. Bible prophecy is certainly hidden away from the wicked as it says that the wicked will not understand.

I wonder if it is exactly the same intellectual difficulty religious deludees like your good self have understanding self-fulfilling prophecy as they do seeing design where none exists. Do you think the partition of Israel was done first and then people suddenly thought to look in scripture and said 'Oh my goodness! It was prophecised long ago, how miraculous!'?

It is not a long bow to draw to say that Israel exists essentially because of racism excused by biblical zionism.

Stuart

[theodorej]

Quote (Stu @ Sep. 30 2008,11:52)

Water into wine.  There is another absurd truth claim for which no believer has given any mechanism and for which there is no eyewitness account.  Water can only be turned into wine if you add fruit juice and yeast and wait for fermentation to take place.  It may seem like magic but it is pretty well understood in terms of the action of enzymes on carbohydrates.  So when you say “Let us not the forget the transformation of the water into wine..” let us also not forget that it is perverse to thing that it actually happened. Stuart

Greetings Stu… The Wedding of Canna was this nondescript group of people who got together to celibrate a marriage and some guy changed water into wine…. 2008.. Not such a big deal….Back then…A Miracle !!!

[david]

Quote

And the effects of alcohol make you want to have sex with your kids? Come on, David.

“come on David?”

Come on Mandy, which verse says that he 'wanted to have sex with his kids?' Which verse? Oh, that's right, it doesn't say that at all. Here's what it says:

“So they kept giving their father wine to drink during that night; then the firstborn went in and lay down with her father, but HE DID NOT KNOW when she lay down and when she got up.”

They “repeatedly” gave their “old” father wine to drink. Anyway, there isn't the faintest suggestion in the account that he 'wanted to have sex with his kids' as you claim. If so, where?

Quote

Instead you say this helps us to trust the bible more because these hideous crimes against God's law were not hidden from us but exposed? Perhaps. But then God blesses the same one who broke the laws of incest BUT

According to the account, Lot was evidently drunk enough to lose control of his good sense but not dead drunk, that is, not too drunk to have sexual relations. Question Mandy: If someone rapes another person, is the victim guilty of incest?

Lot actually deplored the “lawless deeds” of Sodom’s inhabitants. (2 Peter 2:6-8) The very fact that Lot’s daughters got him intoxicated suggests that they realized that he would not consent to having sexual relations with them while he was sober. But as aliens in the land, his daughters felt that this was the only way to prevent the extinction of Lot’s family. The account is in the Bible to reveal the relationship of the Moabites (through Moab) and the Ammonites (through Benammi) to Abraham’s descendants, the Israelites.

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But then God blesses the same one who broke the laws of incest BUT ennihilated those who broke another law of homosexuality? Something doesn't sound right here.

Yes, your arguments against God, don't sound right. They sound like they're missing any part of any scripture that at all hints that Lot 'wanted to have sex with his kids' as you state, and they ignore the fact that the Bible indicates the opposite–they knew they would have to get him drunk out of his mind for that to ever take place.

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But I know you can make it sound right, David.

No, it's scripture, and actually looking at what it says, and leaving your imagination behind that makes it sound, as it is. And I'm not saying what took place was right, and nor does the Bible.

The fact is, candor does suggest truth. Over and over, we see nations through history leaving their defeats or any embarressing things out of the books.

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Your response will show us how we can believe both that God is love and just EVEN in the light of these contradictions.

Actually, my response, as it turned out, showed that upon actual examination of what the text actually says, there was no contradiction.

david

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 02 2008,06:54)

Hi t8, Thanks for taking the time to reply. Quote Do I really have to spell out which is what? Surely anyone can determine prophecy from history, from God speaking. You must realize that there are those of us who are much more simpleminded than yourself.  For instance, it is not obvious to me or to Tim (it sounds like) whether the Lot story is useful for teaching? or for encouragement? or whatever else the bible says the word of God is used for.  Is there a difference then when certain parts of the word are used for prophecy and other's for history…..should they equally be there for teaching, encouragement and other's?  If so the original question was, for what good use is the story of Lot and his daughter's?  It's just a history lesson then?  If so, what are we supposed to learn?  Not to get drunk and have sex with our daughters?  But even that doesn't seem like the lesson coming forth because, well, read the story again for yourself.  I'm utterly confused.  Nothing new there.  😉 Quote The other thing is that it is easy to judge people through your eyes and values, but we often forget that our values and society are shaped by things good and bad that have happened in the past. Will a generation 1000 years from now be horrified by your actions? Is our generation better than the one of Lot's time? God himself said that having sex with such a close relation was prohibited.  It has nothing to to with personal judgement on my part or anyone elses. Quote I prefer to leave that to God myself. I am not going to judge. So if your wife had sex with your son you would leave that for God to judge – you wouldn't say or do anything?  Sorry, just bringing it a little closer to home and our reality. Quote If the worse thing you did was written in a book for future generations to read, could they rightly be horrified too? No.  Because our society is much more accepting of various behaviors.  Back in Lot's day – you got turned into salt and murdered for such behavior.

No worries.

The bible is a teacher. It teaches us through words that were received by prophets. It contains teachings from teachers. It records history. It also records events of evil.

All of it is for learning, reproof, correction, etc, but not all of it is to be followed. .e.g, Jesus was crucified, so we shouldn't go around looking to crucify his followers for example. So a lot of it is common sense. Do the good, and learn from the bad.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 02 2008,06:54)

So if your wife had sex with your son you would leave that for God to judge – you wouldn't say or do anything?  Sorry, just bringing it a little closer to home and our reality.

Sure that is pretty sick, I agree, but the point I was trying to make before is that we are all sick whether we choose to beleive it or not. We might hugely frown upon that, but today we let babies dies in the mothers womb. People take recreational drugs till they die, People die from eating too much food, while others starve to death. Every generation has different pressures. In Lot's time, it appears that he and his family were the only heterosexual left in the area.

Not condoning it, but just saying that we have obese people today because we have too much junk food at our convenience. Lot lived in a generation and area of rampant homosexuality, he liked wine, and his daughters were perhaps old enough, but lived in a world of homsexuality.

So again, I am not justifying it, just saying that we are all sick in different ways. There are people today that don't even believe in God. That might be hard to see as sick, but when you have knowledge it sure is.

Would you eat a human being? Would you do it if you were born in a cannabilistic tribe in New Guinea? Maybe. You see, the setting, environment, knowledge, all have their part to play. In different circumstances it might surprise you what you are could be capable of.

If you were born in Germany in WWII would you have obeyed the law, or joined the resistance?

[Proclaimer]

The other point I was making is that being righeous is not what most think it is. It is simply having faith in God because we all fall short of the glory of God. So those who have faith, also sin, and some have sinned greatly. Nevertheless, such can still have great faith.

I tend to keep away from societies tendency to condemn those who make mistakes. I think of the woman caught in adultery and all the people that were ready to stone her. Jesus said “let him who is without sin, cast the first stone”, and nobody stoned her. They all walked away.

In todays day in age there are certain people that are condemned greatly, even by others who are great sinners and but perhaps have sinned just as much but in a way that society tolerates more.

[Stu]

Quote (theodorej @ Oct. 02 2008,14:31)

Quote (Stu @ Sep. 30 2008,11:52) Water into wine.  There is another absurd truth claim for which no believer has given any mechanism and for which there is no eyewitness account.  Water can only be turned into wine if you add fruit juice and yeast and wait for fermentation to take place.  It may seem like magic but it is pretty well understood in terms of the action of enzymes on carbohydrates.  So when you say “Let us not the forget the transformation of the water into wine..” let us also not forget that it is perverse to thing that it actually happened. Stuart Greetings Stu… The Wedding  of Canna was this nondescript group of people who got together to celibrate a marriage and some guy changed water into wine…. 2008.. Not such a big  deal….Back then…A Miracle !!!

Well again it depends what you mean by changed water into wine. If it was an illusionist's trick in which water was replaced with wine or something that gave the appearance of wine without detection then of course that could happen and would be easily explainable, but the premise that anyone can say anything reliably about what Jesus said or did itself is not a tenable one. Asking someone to believe that there was such a person as Jesus AND he performed supernatural miracles is in the realm of fairyland. Not even Saul of Tarsus claimed as much.

Stuart

[Proclaimer]

To Stu.

Quote

Quote (Stu @ Oct. 02 2008,07:24) Pre 1948, men read in scripture that God would lead the Jews back to Israel. Many didn't believe it would happen. After being scattered for about 2500 years, it came to pass in 1948. Bible prophecy is certainly hidden away from the wicked as it says that the wicked will not understand. I wonder if it is exactly the same intellectual difficulty religious deludees like your good self have understanding self-fulfilling prophecy as they do seeing design where none exists.  Do you think the partition of Israel was done first and then people suddenly thought to look in scripture and said 'Oh my goodness! It was prophecised long ago, how miraculous!'? It is not a long bow to draw to say that Israel exists essentially because of racism excused by biblical zionism. Stuart

Sure Stu, in hindsight it is always easier to see what someone was saying after the event. In this case that is true too, but it is also true that it is spoken in scripture thousands of years ago and it has come to pass. Pre-1948, people didn't really believe the scriptures pertaining to the restoration of Israel because it was too amazing to believe that an ancient nation could be resurrected. People just assumed it was symbolic.

Here is a bit of history. King David ruled Israel about 3000 years ago. The land was conquered and destroyed by the Babylonians, Assyrians and Romans later on. The land has been in ruins for much of the past 2000 years. The Jews, who had been scattered throughout the world, began to return in large numbers during the past 100 years. Since then, they have been rebuilding many of Israel's ancient cities.

Scripture talks of the restoration of the nation of Israel, the restoration of the language, and that the nation would be fruitful in agricultural terms. So how is that possible. A people are scattered, lose their language, and the land a desert becomes a place of Jewish people speaking Hebrew who have burgeoning agriculture?

Too hard to believe, well we know it has happened, so now lets look back at scripture and history together.

Restoration of Israel

Ezek 39:27-29
“When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations.” 28 “Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind.” 29 “I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD.”

Amos 9:14-15
“14 I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the LORD your God.”

Jer 30:2
“This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD.”

Jer 31:10
“Hear the word of the LORD, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: 'He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.”

Jer 33:7
“I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before.”

Ezek 37:21-27
…..”I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.”

Isaiah 43:5-6
“Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth…

A wasteland reversed

During the past 100 years, the Jews have been using advanced farming and irrigation techniques to turn barren land into productive farmland. Today, Israel is a source of food for many countries and is perhaps the only country in the world to have successfully reverse desertification on a significant scale. Most countries are losing against desertification. Today, Israel even has the same flag, the flag of David.

Ezekiel 36:11
I will increase the number of men and animals upon you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

Amos 9:11, 13
“In that day I will restore David's fallen tent. I will repair its broken places, restore its ruins, and build it as it used to be,'' … “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills.”

Isaiah 41:18-20
I will make rivers flow on barren heights, and springs within the valleys. I will turn the desert into pools of water, and the parched ground into springs. I will put in the desert the cedar and the acacia, the myrtle and the olive. I will set pines in the wasteland, the fir and the cypress together, so that people may see and know, may consider and understand, that the hand of the Lord has done this, that the Holy One of Israel has created it.

Stu a large part of scripture is prophecy. I heard someone say that 45% of it is, but I cannot confirm if this is true, but in any case it is a significant percentage. Prophecy is something tangible by which you can judge scripture by too.

As you can see the above prophecies are not vague by anyones terms.

And as for miracles, you need not look any further than Israel. It is surrounded by greater enemies than it faced 2700 years ago, and it not only survives but it is a dominant force in the area. Israel is surrounded by a sea of hate and yet it prospers as God said it would.

Isaiah 41:12-14
Though you search for your enemies, you will not find them. Those who wage war against you will be as nothing at all. For I am the Lord, your God, who takes hold of your right hand and says to you, Do not fear; I will help you. Do not be afraid, O worm Jacob, O little Israel, for I myself will help you,” declares the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

[Stu]

You don't understand the words 'self-fulfilling', do you. If these events happened spontaneously and precisely like eclipses then we would know there was some predictive principle behind it, but in the case of Israel you have thousands of zealots all running around trying to make scripture into reality. Nothing special there. Which one of these biblical predictions cannot be explained as self-fulfilling?

Stuart

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