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Quote (gollamudi @ June 26 2008,02:04) Hi Stu,
I am from India I visited some of the ranges of Himalayas but not the Everest which is in the Tibet border. I know it is very difficult to breathe normally on those steep mountains. Yes there is no change in the height of Everest still they measure it as 8848 mts above the sea level only.
Wow. Only 8848m? You are not easily impressed, are you?!I think I know what you mean…
Stuart
Yes with God, but does possible mean true or even probable? Where do we separate myth from truth? Legends of floods abound over the world but evidence is lacking for what the Bible describes. Perhaps it was a localized occurence that appeared to those at the time like a world wide event. Why do we believe the account of Noah and scoff at Atlantis and Lemuria and other antideluvian tales? Because the Bible tells us so? So like so many things all goes back to whether we believe the collection of documents put together at the request of an earthly emperor is the definitive word of God. My thoughts are they are not; inspired works perhaps, but the directed unaltered dictates of God on paper, hardly. In this light I would say the story of Noah is suspect if taken literally. I am sure there is meaning there but I don't think it is one of literal history.
Hi Cato,
Quote Yes with God, but does possible mean true or even probable?
With God, people walk through doors and are raised from the dead……Quote Perhaps it was a localized occurence that appeared to those at the time like a world wide event.
I have heard to the contrary on certain programs that the History channel puts out and other's. There is evidence for a world-wide flood. I guess it depends on which camp you want to draw your evidence from?
Quote In this light I would say the story of Noah is suspect if taken literally.
Perhaps. But it also could be an amazing miracle of God Almighty. I would never want to put God in a box. I hate it when people try to put me in a box and I don't have one ounce of power in my pinky!If with God, anything is possible (which I won't argue with) then the only parameter that counts is then whether or not it is God's doing. You then base your beliefs on what the Bible said, assuming that it is an accurate rendition of truth. Thus I reiterate my previous post; if you believe the Bible God's word then I guess you would take God on his word. If you believe the Bible is a varied collection of writings some inspired other doubtful, chockfull of symbolism, myth and allegory then one would be very critical in examining Biblical statements too literally.
Quote (Cato @ June 28 2008,02:52) if you believe the Bible God's word then I guess you would take God on his word. If you believe the Bible is a varied collection of writings some inspired other doubtful, chockfull of symbolism, myth and allegory then one would be very critical in examining Biblical statements too literally.
I get'cha. But here's the thing Cato, we only have the Bible. We only have what we call the spirit of God guiding us. We have our logic and reason, but we both know that we could talk ourselves out of a box if we had to.We could reason everything away……
But faith remains when our understanding is perhaps veiled. Even through a flawed set of books God can still speak to your heart. Must we believe that all the stories are true and literal? Gosh, I haven't read anywhere that that is a requirment of faith or salvation. So, I guess choose wisely what you will dismiss – asking the LORD for guidance, assurance, and even confirmation if it can be had.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2008,05:20) I get'cha. But here's the thing Cato, we only have the Bible.
Do we? Do you suppose the only inspired writings from the Almighty came from the ancient Jews? There are no holy works from the east, or our own gentile ancestors? God stopped sending messages after Paul? Perhaps, or just as well he inspired others from different cultures, backgrounds and times and they wrote their impressions of the divine in their own words giving us another piece of the puzzle or a similar view from a slightly different perspective. Yes many of these are wrong, some are forgeries, others deceptions, yet from some come great wisdom and insight. Let the divine within guide us to truth and falsehood, wisdom and foolishness, God inspired or darkness derived.Hi Cato,
I definitely don't believe God stopped speaking after the bible. I also find encouragement and guidance from reading, for instance, the writting of Buddha. But the concern was whether we believe stories in the bible are fact or fiction. In those instances all we have is the bible to contemplate. The stories are within it's pages and no other.
Quote (gollamudi @ June 26 2008,23:18) I'm impressed for what?
my 'only' is about the measurements not the height of Everest.
OK, I'm a bit confused then. Everest is 8848m above sea level, yes? It has not changed significantly in the past few thousand years, right? Then if I read Genesis right, Noah and his family and many environmentally sensitive animals spent a considerable period of time at an altitude at which breathing is difficult and there is a very real chance of death. So could you explain what you added to that?Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,00:31) Stu, Regarding the Ark: With God all things are possible!
Hi Not3I'm glad to see you are not trying to explain it as a biblical literalist then!
What do you really think of the 'with god anything is possible' line? Isn't that a cop out for people who don't have a straight story? With evolution of stars and animals not just anything is possible, only very precisely rational things are possibly. “Just anything” has not happened, only things that can be described methodically have occurred as far as we can know.
If anything is possible with god, then it is possible that there is no god and the whole of Judeo-christian mythology is invented fantasy. There is no evidence against that! Specifically there is evidence that the ark story does not describe a real event, so are things that did not happen possible with god too?
I don't mean to step on your gentle humourous barb but I think it is a point that needs to be taken seriously!
Stuart
Hi Not3
Quote I have heard to the contrary on certain programs that the History channel puts out and other's. There is evidence for a world-wide flood. I guess it depends on which camp you want to draw your evidence from? What evidence?
Stuart
Interestingly, mountains are growing taller.
Mount everest, an inch a year.
http://content.scholastic.com/browse/book.jsp?id=3483Although, that figure seems extremely large compared to other mountains.
http://www.natural-environment.com/blog….-tallerQuote (david @ June 29 2008,07:42) Interestingly, mountains are growing taller.
Mount everest, an inch a year.
http://content.scholastic.com/browse/book.jsp?id=3483Although, that figure seems extremely large compared to other mountains.
http://www.natural-environment.com/blog….-taller
A speed of 2.5cm/year is in the same order of magnitude as other kinds of tectonic movement. Uplift and erosion in the downwards direction together cause mountain growth on average to be slower than horizontal tectonic movement. I suppose unless your plate has gone into reverse and the mountain is shrinking.Assuming a constant rate I make Everest's height increase 125m in the last 5000 years. That means it would have been somewhere over 8700m at the alleged time of the mythical flood. The last JWs who visited me told me that they believed in a 'much flatter earth' at that time. I think they could see how absurd that view is by the time they left…
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Good to hear from you!
Quote What do you really think of the 'with god anything is possible' line? Isn't that a cop out for people who don't have a straight story?
To some extent this is absolutely true. There are some things that Christians cannot explain. They cannot explain them because God's ways are above our ways (another cop out?)….perhaps. But it comes down to faith, Stu. And some choose to have faith (believing what they can not see) and other's set it aside for what is tangible.Quote “Just anything” has not happened, only things that can be described methodically have occurred as far as we can know.
Of course you discount what you do not embrace, but what of miracles? They cannot be described methodically and yet they happen. Just ask someone who has experienced one (like me). Plus, I would suppose that there are things “happening” all around us that have not yet been explored or maybe even cannot be explained. We live on a wondrous planet.Quote If anything is possible with god, then it is possible that there is no god and the whole of Judeo-christian mythology is invented fantasy. There is no evidence against that!
True, there is no evidence that 100% proves that Chrisianity is the real deal. Through my honest searching I have come up with several things found in the bible that have made me go, “Huh?”. But when I look around me at the stars, my children, the trees and the wind on my face….I don't have to wonder if God is real. Why? Because the science explaination of all those wonderful things leaves me wanting.Have you ever seen E.T., the movie? If so, remember when his finger would light up when his mother ship was close or communicating with him? That's what happens to me when my Creator is communicating to me – I light up inside. I become very aware of a greater presence than my own. A rush of wind, and I am with the LORD. It is a very satisfying experience to be in the arms of One so awesome. So if it is only fantasy, don't wake me up!
Quote Specifically there is evidence that the ark story does not describe a real event, so are things that did not happen possible with god too?
This does not bother me so much, you know why? there have been a lot of events in my life that didn't seem possible but happened nonetheless. I believe divine intervention sometimes makes led balloons fly! Who knows? maybe Noah was a terrible boat builder and it was obvious that the sucker would never float…..God could have just made it so. The measurements and so on are just records and legends passed down, who knows if they are accurate or not?Quote I don't mean to step on your gentle humourous barb but I think it is a point that needs to be taken seriously!
Thanks, Stu. I appreciate your ways. But you know, I take less and less seriously these days. I listen a lot. I pray. I live a good life. I devote my soul to a higher power and I am blessed for it. If it's fantasy, I'll take my chances. The instant rewards are too good to pass up.Love,
MandyQuote (Stu @ June 29 2008,06:42) Hi Not3 Quote I have heard to the contrary on certain programs that the History channel puts out and other's. There is evidence for a world-wide flood. I guess it depends on which camp you want to draw your evidence from? What evidence?
Stuart
Oh, you know how these TV shows go….there are “experts” in every camp. They talk about such things as carbon dating and so on….it's mostly above my abilities to reason out. All I know is there are a lot of folks out there who believe there is evidence for the stories in the bible.As for me, I don't know that believing any of the stories will necessarily “save me” in the end anyway. The only thing that truly counts is that I love God with all my heart and my neighbor as myself. Believe that God sent a lamb for my sins and get on with my life for as long as it lasts…… What awaits me after I breathe my last is still unknown. But I hope for life everlasting, oh yes I do.
Quote The last JWs who visited me told me that they believed in a 'much flatter earth' at that time. I think they could see how absurd that view is by the time they left… Hypothetical question for you stu.
Let's imagine what the Bible said was true, and that all that water was dumped on the earth. Would this have any impact on the earth? Would it cause any earth changes? Any upheavels?
Quote (david @ June 30 2008,06:09) Quote The last JWs who visited me told me that they believed in a 'much flatter earth' at that time. I think they could see how absurd that view is by the time they left… Hypothetical question for you stu.
Let's imagine what the Bible said was true, and that all that water was dumped on the earth. Would this have any impact on the earth? Would it cause any earth changes? Any upheavels?
It would have removed ancient cave paintings. Why are they still there?Stuart
Hi Mandy
Your writing is quite different to that of some months ago. Have you settled in a new place or back in an old one?
Quote …it comes down to faith, Stu. And some choose to have faith (believing what they can not see) and other's set it aside for what is tangible.
No one here can justify that but over and over I am just supposed to accept it. My reasons for rejecting the concept of faith are very strong. It is an insidious concept that has made the world a less happy place and I for one call its bluff as often as I can. Those who demand that faith is a virtue are usually the ones that benefit from others having it.Quote but what of miracles? They cannot be described methodically and yet they happen.
I am sure you have asked yourself by now why Paul does not mention the supposed miracles of Jesus in any of his writing, and he is the closest in time to the biblical timeline for Jesus. Miracles certainly can be explained. I think the child in all of us likes the idea of miracles and sometimes the adult doesn’t let that fantasy go the way it should.Quote We live on a wondrous planet. But when I look around me at the stars, my children, the trees and the wind on my face….I don't have to wonder if God is real. Why? Because the science explanation of all those wonderful things leaves me wanting..
We certainly do live on a wondrous planet. When I was young I turned over in my head the question of apparent complexity and beauty. The cold objective answers to why we see beauty and there is complexity are so beautiful and simple themselves that for me the wrong biblical writings of ignorant men are worse than just a third-class kind of knowledge. The bible is anti-beauty and knows little of what it is to be a human. I don’t claim to know it all but the christian part of the Judeo-christian story especially I find more and more repulsive by the year and I feel for those who have fallen into its grip. They choose, but they choose not to see as much as others. I don’t know how that makes them happy. Maybe they lack some boundaries and need the structure, and don’t mind being intellectually and spiritually brutalised in the process. I understand we will probably disagree here! But I both get it and don’t get it.Quote Have you ever seen E.T., the movie? If so, remember when his finger would light up when his mother ship was close or communicating with him? That's what happens to me when my Creator is communicating to me – I light up inside… So if it is only fantasy, don't wake me up!
OK If you are truly happy with the fantasy who am I to spoil it. You understand my identical feelings that happen with no ‘creator’.Quote Who knows? maybe Noah was a terrible boat builder and it was obvious that the sucker would never float…..God could have just made it so. The measurements and so on are just records and legends passed down, who knows if they are accurate or not?
Don’t forget this thread is about biblical literalism and what fundamentalists cannot explain. There has been local flooding historically, there have been large boats, there have been global catastrophes. The flood myth in Genesis did not happen. That is as close as you can get to the truth of the history of earth. There is no greater argument for a global flood. All we have is the lack of evidence for it PLUS all the evidence that says it did not happen. So the boat as described in Genesis is fictional. Where do you go from there? What else is fictional? Actually we know a lot of it is! But you don’t need to defend all that because you know it is fable too.Quote As for me, I don't know that believing any of the stories will necessarily “save me” in the end anyway.
Well exactly. What charlatan has told you that you need saving? We have no real clue what Jesus actually said, so was it Paul or some other politician?Quote The only thing that truly counts is that I love God with all my heart and my neighbor as myself. Believe that God sent a lamb for my sins and get on with my life for as long as it lasts…… What awaits me after I breathe my last is still unknown. But I hope for life everlasting, oh yes I do.
I don’t. What is your purpose then? To be a bearer of a bit of humanity for a brief lifetime, making the most of the unbelievably tiny chance of that event and to pass on the baton to the next generation, or to get stuck in some celestial timewarp where the worshipping of the same god becomes your permanent existence and your children never escape you, which eventually they must? As Christopher Hitchens so colourfully says, they have that in North Korea, but at least you can escape it through death!Good talking with you. Take care too.
Stuart
Hey Stuart,
Quote Your writing is quite different to that of some months ago. Have you settled in a new place or back in an old one?
Quote
Yes, I have been a bit fickle the past 6 months. I have really struggled with fighting for basic human rights and reasoning, and embracing faith and the unknown…. To be honest with you I wish I could right my own ticket, my own religion. But then I guess the key would be to have everyone follow it (that's the problem God is having now) I've settled into a new place that has hints of being familiar. I've embraced some things that are not generally accepted by mainstream believers. I'm pretty OK with that now, I didn't used to be at all. I guess tolerance of other's, and the genuine love of other's has helped me to understand that the world is really not so narrow. There are other belief systems out there that appear to be just as loving as the one I am claiming as my own way to worship.
Quote It is an insidious concept that has made the world a less happy place and I for one call its bluff as often as I can.
I honestly think you've just had some bad experiences with faith, God, church or whatever. And perhaps you also have friends/family that commiserate with you and cement your views even harder? Because there are those of us who are not so gullible as to believe every written word in the pages of a book titled , “Holy Bible”. There are those of us who enjoy worshiping but do not demand it of other's. I guess I'm just saying, don't put “faith” into a box. You may be more at ease with the ideas of a Creator, faith and the choices of other's if you allow yourself the honor of respecting other's rights to peace as they understand it (this is another way to say: live and let live.).Quote Maybe they lack some boundaries and need the structure, and don’t mind being intellectually and spiritually brutalised in the process.
This sentence demonstrates to me your complete lack of knowledge/experience with a higher power. Because you refuse to believe, the benefit package has never been shown to you. Sign-up and at least take the tour! Quote So the boat as described in Genesis is fictional. Where do you go from there? What else is fictional? Actually we know a lot of it is! But you don’t need to defend all that because you know it is fable too.
So what if it is part fable? The difference between you and me is that I don't care if all the stories are true. My mom told me that sometimes you have to spit out a few seeds to eat the fruit. It's no big deal, really, you just understand that the bible was written by men. I do believe that some of them were inspired, but through time the documents have become corrupted. That is why I believe God speaks beyond the dried ink.Quote What is your purpose then? To be a bearer of a bit of humanity for a brief lifetime, making the most of the unbelievably tiny chance of that event and to pass on the baton to the next generation
There is an old song by Andrea Crouch that goes like this: Even if heaven was never promised to me, nor the ability to live life eternally, it's been worth just having the Lord in my life. Living in a world of darkness but he brought me the light.I echo those sentiments. Even if when I pass from this glorious place I enter into nothingness……it will have been worth living my life under the shelter of One who cares for me. In the presence of such a One, I have been given so much joy and peace. I have understood and appreciated life and death so much more. There have been times that I have literally been thrilled by the presence of the Almighty. These experiences cannot be explained or proven. Perhaps you will say that I am insane and not in possesion of all my faculties, and that I have conjured this all up in my bit of a mind? And I will tell you that I will go to my grave believing otherwise. Because you cannot deny something or someOne with such love for you. You feel it like you feel your chest rise and fall with each breath.
Well, another beautiful day in fantasyland
It's supposed to be just as hot today as it was yesterday. I hope they are right because I plan to sleep under the stars tonight.Have a good one, Stuart!
Mandy
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