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Hi,
Cubes and trettep has pointed out that there is definite evidence that there is already a new spiritual temple shown in Eph 2, 1Peter and Rev 11 and 21.Is 1.18 has indicated that a new physical Temple will have to be built for scripture about the “abomination of desolation” in Daniel, Matthew and Mark to be fulfilled.
What is the truth? Are both necessary or do we need to have only one or the other to fulfill scripture?
Just thought some related links can be helpful for a balanced view. Here's what I got on google's “destruction of the Jewish temple.”
Go here and type in the search “sanhedrin”
Read the official news from Isreal.
Rudy
Quote (Rudy @ April 06 2005,03:06) Isreali News Network Go here and type in the search “sanhedrin”
Read the official news from Isreal.
Rudy
Hi Rudy,Thanks for the link, and welcome.
I was recently made aware that the Sanhedrin has been reestablised, though I've known for sometime now that plans for a third temple have been underway by the devout Jews in Israel—even to the extent of trying to breed a sacrificial animal without blemish for the oblations. I read an article that even says they've found a direct male descendant of David to take the throne….Question is, Do we equate our will and success with God's will and success? What is his will concerning these things?
1. We are the temple of God, with Jesus as our chief cornerstone according to the scriptures cited in the OP, with hopefully more to be added as we study along.
2. Jesus is the acceptable sacrifice that cannot be improved upon. (Hebrews). A third temple in Jerusalem would be set up after the order of the old pattern–Moses, Solomon, Zerubbabel, Aaron… It would require animal sacrifices which Jesus' death and resurrection abolished.
3. Jesus calls us to worship the Father in spirit and in truth, no longer in the mountains of the Samaritans or in the Temple which was in Jerusalem—but in spirit and in truth, wherever men happen to be, offering our bodies as living sacrifices holy and accepted in the beloved. John 4, Romans 12:1-2. No animal sacrifices are called for or needed now.
That tells me that God no longer approves of a structural temple in Jerusalem and men can build it but it would not mean anything to God. Probably could be more of an offense for the reasons listed above…unless they plan to gather there to worship him through Yeshua, accepting Yeshua as the Lamb of God that was slain for the sin of the world.
Hi Cubes.
The question is not 'should the Jews built a temple' but 'will they'. Clearly orthodox Jews have not accepted God's provision for them and, in their minds, still have a remission for sin problem. That is a strong motivation for them to build a temple. Add to this the specific prophecies that can only be fulfilled with a physical temple and I think the case for a third temple is a strong one.cheers
Good points Is 1.18,
But there are a couple of things that come to mind. If we sit back and wait for the natural temple and sacrifices to start it may all be over before those things are complete.We know the bodies of the saved each are the temples of The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus that calls “Abba” to the father and prays through us and for us.We need to present and submit that body to God.
Rom 12.1
” Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God , to present your bodies, a living and holy SACRIFICE ACCEPTABLE TO GOD, which IS your spiritual service of WORSHIP”What are the sacrifices that we need to offer to our God in our temple?
1Peter 2.5
” you also ,as living stones ,are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, TO OFFER UP SPIRITUAL SACRIFICES ACCEPTABLE TO GOD through Jesus Christ”and Heb 13.15
” Through him then, let us continually offer up a SACRIFICE OF PRAISE TO GOD, that is, the fruit of lips that GIVE THANKS TO HIS NAME. And do not neglect DOING GOOD AND SHARING, FOR WITH SUCH SACRIFICES GOD IS PLEASED”The Praise of God and the Fruit of good works is the sacrifice that God wants in His new temple. Set the Spirit free in your temple to give praise to the Father as is the work of the Spirit, here or there or wherever our temple is..PRAISE GOD.
So what then would be the opposite? Failure to praise our God and instead installing and worshipping another God in our temple? the antichrist?
The third and final Temple (physical, not corporeal) of the Jews will be used in the tribulation by the Anti-Christ to place his ungodly image in and force the world to worship him as god.
That has been satans desire all along, to exalt himself above the Almighty!
God won't allow it to continue and the seventh seal will be broken ushering in the seven bowl plagues as judgement on the beast and those who worship him and his image.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 06 2005,09:21) Hi Cubes.
The question is not 'should the Jews built a temple' but 'will they'. Clearly orthodox Jews have not accepted God's provision for them and, in their minds, still have a remission for sin problem. That is a strong motivation for them to build a temple. Add to this the specific prophecies that can only be fulfilled with a physical temple and I think the case for a third temple is a strong one.cheers
Is. 1:18 & Rudy,It is as you say. The evidence towards preparations for a 3rd structural temple is there. I now see things differently though.
Is there any information with regards to the Aaronic priesthood: Have they kept track of the lineage or are they depending on DNA testing?
Rudy stated: QUOTE]God won't allow it to continue and the seventh seal will be broken ushering in the seven bowl plagues as judgement on the beast and those who worship him and his image.[/QUOTE]
Interesting that you associate it with the opening of the Seventh Seal. I have been wondering if the seals were not being opened throughout the ages…
Could you share more of what you know on the opening of the seals, that is if you have anything to add at this time.
Quote (Rudy @ April 06 2005,11:47) The third and final Temple (physical, not corporeal) of the Jews will be used in the tribulation by the Anti-Christ to place his ungodly image in and force the world to worship him as god. That has been satans desire all along, to exalt himself above the Almighty!
God won't allow it to continue and the seventh seal will be broken ushering in the seven bowl plagues as judgement on the beast and those who worship him and his image.
Hi Rudy,
Thank you for your opinion.There is no Jewish temple now. If there was would God dwell there? What happened to God's presence in the old temple when it was torn down. Did He remove that presence again as in the book of Ezekiel Ch 10? If another Jewish temple was built would God's presence come back and dwell in the Holy of Holies again? Would the Ark of the covenant be there as no one knows where it is?
Has that time not passed with the tearing of the veil?
The disciples continued to attend the temple after the death of Jesus . But was that only to mingle with those who loved God?
I guess I am saying what relevance would be a building if God had no part in it anyway. What relevance to non Jews would the “abomination of desolation” be in a building where God is not worshipped anyway?
I don't believe the physical temple will be built again and if it was it would just be a building and not God's Temple because the temple has not been destroyed because it exists even at this time in the body of those in the Church. Additionally, the Jewish state is in a hard position in many different ways. For example, the Dome of the Rock is built on the site where the Temple would have to be built. Also, the government of Israel finds itself in conflict with the religous motives of its people. Therefore, I would have to believe there to be much more prophecy concerning the building of the temple as it would relate to the muslim situation and the governmental situation and to the physical situation.
Paul
Following in the same thoughts expressed by Nick & Trettep, what significance will there be for the AOD to profane an unholy, unapproved temple since we have to agree that the God of the Jews and that of the Church is One, and there can only be one acceptable form of worship which he has commanded in Christ?
These questions are not asked to create dischord, just something to consider.
Edited to finish last incomplete sentence.
This is how I read it:
All things are according to the council of His will. The Jews have no choice. Romans 9:17
Only God knows who is from what tribe.
No, God won't dwell there.
I read in Rev. 11:19 the ark is in the Temple in Heaven! Though some Jews claim it is hidden in a chamber under the temple mount. John says he “saw” it in heaven, I believe him and the inspired (revealed) Word of God.
The temple is implied in Daniel 11 and correlates with the destruction of the Beast (anti-christ) in Revelation 13-15
Offerings have not been made according to the Levitical Law since the destruction of 70A.D.
The image of the Beast is an idol that he will set up in the 3rd temple requiring all that dwell on earth to worship or be destroyed, murdered. This is the abomination that makes desolate.
Notice the angel of the Lord warning not to take the mark Rev 14:9
Take the mark and worship or refuse it and be a martyr.The seventh bowl (vial) judgement is the last and initiates an earthquake which is more terrible than any since the habitation of man on earth. Rev 16:17-20
The battle of Armeggedon is the completion of the seventh and destruction of all who took the mark and worshipped the beast. Notice Rev 16:15 & Rev 17:14
The Jews rejected Christ the first time and a remnant will accept Him in the Tribulation and those who survive it will be judged, Matt. 25:32-46
Notice in Zechariah 14 that the feast of tabernacles will be continued in the millenium as a memorial.The millenium is God's day of rest (sabbaoth) ref. Epistle of Barnabas Ch. 15 & 2 Peter 3: 7-8
Sorry, gotta go.. My day starts at 4:00am and it is after 9:00pm now
Welcome Rudy,
Rev 11.19 says
And the temple of God,which is in heaven was opened;and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple”
Jesus is in Heaven but we are his body on earth.
Could it be that the temple too is in heaven but we are that temple on earth?
It does not say that the ark was in the temple but it APPEARED suggesting it was not there till it manifested there. What could that mean?NIV:
Rev.11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
We as the redeemed washed in the Blood of the Lamb will not worship Yaweh but in spirit and truth. The Jews reject the truth and still will attempt to Worship God according to the Levitical Law. Sacrifices will be reestablished but not for the redeemed.
We are Yashua's body on earth until taken up and then comes the Judgements. We will be in heaven in the Presence of Yahweh when Yeshua takes the Title Deed “Scroll” to the earth from His Father and begins to open the Seals (Judgements)
It all culminates with the redeemed (Rev. 19:14) returning with the Messiah at the battle of Armeggedon where the beast will be destroyed and the dragon cast down and locked into the bottomless pit for the duration of the sabbath (millenium) where the redeemed will rule and reign with Christ over the remnant that come out of the tribulation judgement. The earth will be repopulated without the interference of satan (the dragon).
Note what Papias has to say about the millenium:
IV.
[As the elders who saw John the disciple of the Lord remembered that they had heard from him how the Lord taught in regard to those times, and said]: “The days will come in which vines shall grow, having each ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in every one of the shoots ten thousand clusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five-and-twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, 'I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.' In like manner, [He said] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear would have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds of clear, pure, fine flour; and that apples, and seeds, and grass would produce in similar proportions; and that all animals, feeding then only on the productions of the earth, would become peaceable and harmonious, and be in perfect subjection to man.” [Testimony is borne to these things in writing by Papias, an ancient man, who was a hearer of John and a friend of Polycarp, in the fourth of his books; for five books were composed by him. And he added, saying, “Now these things are credible to believers. And Judas the traitor,” says he, “not believing, and asking, 'How shall such growths be accomplished by the Lord?' the Lord said, 'They shall see who shall come to them.' These, then, are the times mentioned by the prophet Isaiah: 'And the wolf shall lie, down with the lamb,' etc. (Isa. xi. 6 ff.).”]John 12:26 – If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
John 14:3 – And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 17:24 – Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:8 – We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 – Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Phillipians 1: 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
John 21: 20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? 21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
1 Corinthians 15:52 – In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 – For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 5: 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Revelations 4: 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
John, in my opinion, experienced the “rapture” at that very moment in Rev. 4:1.R) This became a fulfilling of the prophecy implied by Jesus in John 21:20-23
R) The events that follow are the judgements of God executed (set in motion), by Christ breaking each seal. upon an unrepentant and unbelieving world that loved darkness rather than light. All this is in preparation for the Sabbath Rest, i.e. millenium reign of Christ and those obedient according to their works.
Romans 14: 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
2 Corinthians 5:10 – For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
1 Corinthians 6: 1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
2 Peter 3: 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
R) Peter wasn't saying this to scare believers, but rather to flee covetousness (idolatry) realizing that all these things on earth are temporary, we need to live a holy life unspotted from the world!
Revelation 16: 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Revelation 20: – And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither hi
s image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.2 Timothy 2: 10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
Matthew 13: 1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. 2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. 3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. 9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Luke 19: 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. 20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. 22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? 24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. 25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) 26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Papias V.:
As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, “In my Father's house are many mansions:” for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place, even as His word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each one is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch in which they shall recline who feast, being invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; and that, moreover, they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father; and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, “For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” For in the times of the kingdom the just man who is on the earth shall forget to die. “But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”Hope this helps!
Rudy[/I][/U]A fine effort Rudy,
Thank you. But none of the scriptures actually said we go to heaven.
Yes we are in spirit with the Lord now but we are on earth. We cannot see heaven or hear the angels sing can we? Paul and John went in spirit to see heaven but they were still on earth. Their bodies did not go to heaven as they could not have. Earthly bodies perish even in space.We are raptured to meet the Lord in the air. But not into heaven. How strange it would be if we first went to heaven and then back to earth, a bit of a come down I would have thought?
Yes all christians are resurrected or raptured in the first Rn into the millenium on earth where there will be the tribunal of Christ, a judgement of reward.
Then the second Rn for all the nations and final judgement for them on earth.
Then the dwelling place for God will be on the new earth.
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