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Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 13 2009,10:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 13 2009,09:43) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 11 2009,14:30) The resurrection of Jesus was about His coming out of hades (Acts chapters 2 & 13). Paul said that He was raised up from the “abyss” (Rom. 10:7). His body was put in a tomb. It did not come out of the abyss. It was Jesus Himself that was raised up from the abyss. After He was raised from the abyss He appeared in the same body inwhich He was crucified holes, stripes and all of it.
JackThis is not at all what Jesus meant when he spoke of his resurrection!
Jesus answered and said unto them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise (egeirō) it up. John 2:19
It was his body that was resurrected and he is the first fruits of all those that are gonna be resurrected!
There is the word egeirō that is so often used for the raising up of these mortal bodies!
Keith
Keith,
As I have said to anti-trinitarians so I say to you: “A half truth is a falsehood.” You know that I confess that Jesus' body was raised up. But Paul said also that Jesus came up out of the abyss “from among the dead.”“or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from [among] the dead).”
The soul of Christ descended into the abyss (or hades). It is from hades that He was raised up from among the dead. His body was in a tomb by itself. But He was raised from the abyss where He was among the dead.
You're telling only the half of it. Jesus had to keep His mortal body for the forty days so He could appear to and be with His disciples. But we will not keep our mortal bodies because we will be “caught up” to heaven to appear before God and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The abyss, that is, hades was cast into the lake of fire in the judgment in ad70. Since that time all God's people are “caught up” to their “house” which is “eternal in the heavens” (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5).
Jack
JackNo it is you that is preaching a half truth!
I agree Jesus came up from hades and raised his temple his body and became the firstfurits and the firstborn from the dead.
But you tell us Jesus is not the prototype of the resurrection of the saints but only our souls are raised from the dead!
You are preaching the half truth bro!
WJ
Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 13 2009,11:05)
First, The word “body” is “soma” and sometimes may indicate the whole man. I have already shown you this from Vine's.
Give me some scriptural examples! I have already checked every instance where “soma” is used and in every case it is speaking of the natural body as opposed to the soul or spirit of man!WJ
Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 13 2009,11:05) You ain't got it straight man! There are no contradictions in scripture! Paul said that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”
The contradictions is in your camp Jack!For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: “WHO SHALL **CHANGE OUR VILE BODY**, THAT IT MAY BE FASHIONED LIKE UNTO HIS GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20, 21
“IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY”.
Let me use some of your own language Jack…
There it is Jack, “IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY”. the soul is not the body that is sown.
How are you gonna spin or wiggle out of this Jack?
Why are you denying these clear teachings of Paul?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 13 2009,11:05) First, The word “body” is “soma” and sometimes may indicate the whole man. I have already shown you this from Vine's.
If it did indicate the whole man Jack then it would include our natural bodies wouldn't it?For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: “WHO SHALL **CHANGE OUR VILE BODY**, THAT IT MAY BE FASHIONED LIKE UNTO HIS GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20, 21
Is you soul and Spirit “vile” Jack Or is it the the body (soma) that is our problem?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 13 2009,11:05) Hebrews says that the perfect tabernacle is “not made with hands.” Then he says, “that is, not of this creation.” So Paul was saying that our immortal bodies are not of this creation. “FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE LINGDOM OF GOD”
Of course our immortal bodies are not of the New Creation, because like the New Creation our bodies will be changed and made like unto his glorious body!“IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY”.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 14 2009,03:58) Jack Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 13 2009,11:05)
First, The word “body” is “soma” and sometimes may indicate the whole man. I have already shown you this from Vine's.
Give me some scriptural examples! I have already checked every instance where “soma” is used and in every case it is speaking of the natural body as opposed to the soul or spirit of man!WJ
Keith,
I already gave you one example. Paul made reference to it in 1 Corinthians 15. He said that our “body” is as the seed which is sown. Then he goes on to distinguish its parts. He distinguished the part that dissolves from the part that remains which he calls the “naked grain.” The part of the seed which dissolves is the outer shell and the part which he calls the “naked grain” is that part which remains. From the part which remains comes the “other” body. Yet both parts, the outer shell and the naked germinating part are sown as “a body”.So also WAS the resurrection. The entire man was sown as a body. The outer part dissolved leaving the “naked” part to remain. From the part which remained, that is, the soul or spirit came the “other body.” Paul clearly said that the body of the resurrection is “other.”
Therefore, the word “soma” (body) may refer in totality to something that has parts.
Note what Vine's Expository Dictionary says about “soma” (body):
“Sometimes the word stands, by synecdoche, for the complete man (p. 136).
The examples he gives are Matthew 5:29; 6:22; Rom. 12:2; James 3:6; Rev. 18:13
Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 14 2009,04:05) Jack Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 13 2009,11:05) You ain't got it straight man! There are no contradictions in scripture! Paul said that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”
The contradictions is in your camp Jack!For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: “WHO SHALL **CHANGE OUR VILE BODY**, THAT IT MAY BE FASHIONED LIKE UNTO HIS GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20, 21
“IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY”.
Let me use some of your own language Jack…
There it is Jack, “IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY”. the soul is not the body that is sown.
How are you gonna spin or wiggle out of this Jack?
Why are you denying these clear teachings of Paul?
WJ
I have answered you already Keith. Read what Paul said carefully:“Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but bare grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain….
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Paul CLEARLY said that what is ACTUALLY sown is the NAKED grain. He said, “You do not sow that body which shall be, but naked grain.” The outer shell of the seed dissolves and the naked grain remains. It is from the naked grain that the new body comes. The naked grain is the soul (2 Corinthians 5:2).
So the word “body” in the expression “it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body” stands by synecdoche for the man in both his parts.
As the “body” of the seed when it is sown separates into the part that dissolves from the part that remains, so it was in the resurrection.
Paul said, “Now this I say brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”
Paul said that our eternal and imortal body is “not made with hands” (2 Cor. 5:1). The expression “not made with hands” is an idiomatic expression which means “not of this creation.”
“But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come,with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.” Heb. 9:11
Just as the heavenly tabernacle is “not made with hands”, that is, “not of this creation”, so the body from heaven which we will put on “is not made with hands”, that is, “not of this creation.”
Do you plan to answer some of my points instead of continuing to pit scripture against scripture as the anti-trinitarians here do?
Jack
Hi TT,
So which fleshly hands are you speaking of in your allegorisation?
The old body must indeed be sown in death[rom6] to be raised.
Because the resurrection has not happened you have a chance.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 14 2009,08:06) Hi TT,
So which fleshly hands are you speaking of in your allegorisation?
The old body must indeed be sown in death[rom6] to be raised.
Because the resurrection has not happened you have a chance.
Nick,
Paul said that the immortal body is “not made with hands” meaning that it is “not of this creation” (compare 2 Cor. 5:1 with Heb. 9:11). It is not of this creation but “eternal in the heavens.” Your earthly body will be eaten by the bugs Nick.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,09:47) Hi TT,
The natural body is sown that a new body will be given.
The naked grain is the SOUL??
Wacky.
Paul said that the body of the seed dissolves leaving the “naked grain” to remain. He said that the “naked” part in reference to us is the “inward man” (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5). Therefore, it is from the inward man that the new body comes.It will be a glorious body Nick. And we will all be different unlike we are now. We all have the same form now. But in our immortal state each of us will have his own glory (1 Cor. 15:41-42).
“41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.”
We will each have our own glory Nick. The resurrection is past. But we who are alive and remain will be “caught up” and to imortality and we too will have our own distinct glory.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,11:29) Hi TT,
No therefore about it.
God gives the new body as He wishes.[1cor 15]
He gives the new body to the “naked grain.” The old body of the grain perished. You yourself said it is a “new” body. A new body is not a resurrected body. The naked grain is that which is resurrected in the new body.So also is the resurrection. The “naked grain”, that is, the inner man was that which was resurrected from hades in a new body. The old body was eaten by the bugs.
Paul's teaching is so clear. He said that the new body is “not made with hands” (2 Cor. 5:1) which means “not of this creation” (Heb. 9:11).
Since you loathe Catholicism so much then “come out of her” Nick. Your views of the resurrection are Catholic you know. And you hate Catholicism Nick. I don't loathe Catholicism or any denomination. I just loathe futurism with ALL its tenets.
thinker
Hi TT,
Those that are alive and alive in his Spirit when he returns have a new body put over the old.[1cpr15]
But he has yet to return.Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 13 2009,15:57) So the word “body” in the expression “it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body” stands by synecdoche for the man in both his parts.
Then Jack according to you our New Man which is created in Christ Jesus is vile like our bodies for Paul says…Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, “he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 2 Cor 5:17
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: “WHO SHALL **CHANGE OUR VILE BODY**, THAT IT MAY BE FASHIONED LIKE UNTO HIS GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20, 21
Is that what Paul means Jack, that our “souls” or New Creation man is vile and will be changed?
The only New creation that has come is inside us just as the Kingdom of God has come inside us, but the heavens and the earth are yet to be changed! Heb 1:10-12
WJ
Where did the year 70AD come from? What proof from the bible is there that this year is even significant? I'm curious as to why it keeps being mentioned. Where does it mention 70AD in the bible word for word.
To my understanding, man has screwed up the time line in the first place. We go by what we're taught in worldly schools and pass it off as “that's the way it is”.
Here's a common timeline misconception: Christopher Columbus discovered America in 1492. Everyone is taught this when its in fact wrong. Just like we're all supposed to believe that Jesus was born December 25th. That's wrong also. It's the same ideas of man that give us a holiday in which evil is okay and made a very popular trend that we call tradition and holiday, Halloween.
So TT are you going by a time given to you in a textbook or documentary or is it in scripture?
And about eclipses. There was no doubt they happened in the time of Thessalonians. And they probably didn't know how to explain it and hence we have their description of an even they couldn't understand.
Quote (Beloved @ Nov. 18 2009,11:34) Where did the year 70AD come from? What proof from the bible is there that this year is even significant? I'm curious as to why it keeps being mentioned. Where does it mention 70AD in the bible word for word. To my understanding, man has screwed up the time line in the first place. We go by what we're taught in worldly schools and pass it off as “that's the way it is”.
Here's a common timeline misconception: Christopher Columbus discovered America in 1492. Everyone is taught this when its in fact wrong. Just like we're all supposed to believe that Jesus was born December 25th. That's wrong also. It's the same ideas of man that give us a holiday in which evil is okay and made a very popular trend that we call tradition and holiday, Halloween.
So TT are you going by a time given to you in a textbook or documentary or is it in scripture?
And about eclipses. There was no doubt they happened in the time of Thessalonians. And they probably didn't know how to explain it and hence we have their description of an even they couldn't understand.
HiHistory tells us that in the year 70AD the Temple of God was destroyed and the Jews were dispersed throughout the world!
The Preterist believes this is when Jesus returned!
Do a search in Google on the Year 70AD and you will come up with all kinds of information!
WJ
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