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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2009,12:18) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,16:56) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Its because he did not come and their rest was in Christ! The promise was for all those in Christ Jesus!
So you're saying that the statement “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven” may be interpreted metaphorically then? It simply means “rest IN Christ?”May non-futurists take your allegorical approach to other scriptures about the Lord's coming?
thinker
JackInterpret it the way you like, but Paul knew he was gonna die a martyrs death and in fact did, so it is you that is saying the promise failed by your own interpretation of the text!
BTW, there is nothing metaphorical about resting in Christ.
Is being in Christ and Christ being in us metephorical?
WJ
Keith,
It is you who is interpreting Paul's statement the “way you like.” I have already indicated that your argument from Paul's death as a martyr is not valid. Did he know he was going to die a martyr when he said “rest with us?” Even if he did, would he not still use the “we” editorially?Your futurist presuppositions have caused you to allegorize Paul's statement about the Lord being revealed from heaven. Are you willing to accept the infrerences which flow from your allegorization?
If the Lord's revelation from heaven is allegorical and means that Christians will receive their rest when they die, then it means the same thing in reference to the destruction of their enemies. They will receive their destruction when they die. So Paul was not really not talking about the second coming of Christ at all. Is this what you are saying?
Did you know that Harold Camping teaches this? He teaches that the Lord comes every time a Christian dies and he uses some scriptures about the Lord's coming as “proof texts.”
You have opened the door for many statements about Christ's coming to be mishandled this way. You opened the door because you would not revisit the issues just as our anti-trinitarian freinds will not.
You handed me this debate on a silver platter when you allegorized the Lord's coming in 2 Thessalonians 1. You dug a deep hole for yourself. Don't count on me to throw you a rope. You also gave me a “trump” card to play any time you might want to accuse me of allegorization.
I am a former futurist who had a long 20 year journey over to preterism. Do you still journey Keith? Or are you unteachable like Nick?
your friend,
Jack
Jack
If you keep up the spin then I will drop this dialogue with you.
These are your words highlights mine…
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,17:48) ”IF THEY WERE PERSECUTED UNTO DEATH AND DID NOT SEE THE LORD COME BACK TO GIVE THEM REST **THEN PAUL WAS A LIAR**”. Paul assured them that they would receive their rest “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.” Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,17:48) There it is brothers and sisters! ?Paul promised them that the Lord would be revealed from heaven “TO GIVE THEM REST FROM THEIR PERSECUTORS and that rest would come by His taking vengence upon their persecutors in “flaming fire.”
Take note all, Jack talks about me handing him the subject on a silver platter yet it is Jack that didn’t give this much thought and has created a conundrum for himself!By Jacks own words he proves that either Paul’s promise under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit was false or the passage cannot be interpreted the way Jack claims Paul meant the promise.
We know that Paul died a martyr death therefore according to Jack, Paul’s promise for himself failed.
So Jack tries to spin his way out of the mess he has created for himself by patronizing me!
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,17:48) Your futurist presuppositions have caused you to allegorize Paul's statement about the Lord being revealed from heaven. Are you willing to accept the infrerences which flow from your allegorization?
My contention is Paul was not a liar. But it seems Jacks idea is that he was because Paul died a martyr death.I wonder what the Thesselonians must have thought about Pauls promise for them when they saw him beheaded as well as Peter and many other Apostles?
No it is because Paul did not mean what Jack says he meant!
Yet Jack says…
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,17:48) 1. You dug a deep hole for yourself. Don't count on me to throw you a rope. You also gave me a “trump” card to play any time you might want to accuse me of allegorization.
Do you need a rope Jack? I am holding the trump card! Paul died before the promise was fulfilled!Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,17:48) I am a former futurist who had a long 20 year journey over to preterism. Do you still journey Keith? Or are you unteachable like Nick?
Your logic proves nothing, for that is what many anti-Trinitarians claim when they say that they were once Trinitarians and now for 20 years have seen that the Trinity is false! Do you have all truth? What makes you think that making this statement means that I am un-teachable? Because I who also have studied for 35 years, have found no solid evidence that what you say is true!So your argument is circular isn’t it?
Tell us Jack, was Paul lying or was God playing favorite and let him die a martyr death when he promised that he would return to give him rest from his persecutions?
Or is it that Jesus didn’t return and the promise was for the future at the resurrection of the saints when he would bring judgment in all the earth…?
Now Enoch, who lived seven generations after Adam, prophesied about these people. He said, “Look, THE LORD IS COMING WITH THOUSANDS OF HIS HOLY ONES. HE WILL BRING THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD TO JUDGMENT. He will convict the ungodly of all the evil things they have done in rebellion and of all the insults that godless sinners have spoken against him.” Jude 1:14, 15
Take note everyone, that Preterism takes away our blessed hope of the resurrection!
while we wait for “the blessed hope”–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
WJ
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote : If you keep up the spin then I will drop this dialogue with you.
Keith,
You were the very first person to bring up “allegorizing.” Remember that. But okay, I will drop the “spin.” I guess the futurists don't like it when it is done to them.WJ:
Quote We know that Paul died a martyr death therefore according to Jack, Paul’s promise for himself failed.
You still have not dealt with the expression “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.” Do you plan to get around to it?Jesus told His disciples that THEY would see His coming. He had them together as a group when He said this to them. Yet on another occasion before He said this,
Quote Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28)
No conundrum for me brother! On the earlier occasion He said that “some” would remain to His coming. But later He spoke in a general way about it. I do not see the two statements to be in conflict with each other. He had FIRST told them that some would remain. But LATER He simply said generally to all, “You shall see….”So it would be a “conundrum” for me if Paul's “rest with us” statement was to be read as you read it. But Paul is not to be read as you read him. Therefore, no “conundrum.”
Note that Jesus said “assuredly (or truly) I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death….” . Jesus said “TRULY I say to you…some of you will REMAIN.” He said “TRULY” brother! The futurists concede this so they redefine His coming here. They say that Jesus was referring to His transfiguration. But Mark's account says that some would not taste of death until they see the kingdom of God come with power.
Did the disciples see the kingdom of God come with “power” at the transfiguration brother? If you say yes then you put the coming of the kingdom earlier than than the preterist. Jesus said “Truly I say to you, there be some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” He said, “TRULY I SAY….”
You have yet to comment on the expression “WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.” You cling to Paul's death as a martyr for dear life. How about getting into some serious biblical exegesis? Look at the NIV,
“and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”
When would they get their relief? Answer: “This will HAPPEN WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.” Again, there is no “conundrum” for me because Jesus told His disciples beforehand that “some” of them would remain and then later said to them, generally speaking, that “they would see….” Paul was speaking generally and your insistence that Paul's death as a martyr disproves that the Thessalonian Christians did not live to Christ's coming is completely invalid.
thinker
Worshippingjesus said:
Quote Take note everyone, that Preterism takes away our blessed hope of the resurrection! while we wait for “the blessed hope”–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
Keith,
I thought you wanted me to stop with the “spin.” Your statement above is wrong.TO ALL:
It was THEIR hope but our reality. They had to wait in hades until Christ's coming to be changed. We are changed as soon as we die. Again, they had to wait for their hope to be fulfilled. We don't wait in hades to be changed. We are caught up in the twinkling of an eye.
If the futurists are correct then they all died without seeing their hope fulfilled. So where does that leave us? It is not rational for us to expect to receive anything if that whole generation died off without seeing the “blessed hope.”
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 11 2009,12:04) Worshippingjesus said: Quote Take note everyone, that Preterism takes away our blessed hope of the resurrection! while we wait for “the blessed hope”–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
Keith,
I thought you wanted me to stop with the “spin.” Your statement above is wrong.TO ALL:
It was THEIR hope but our reality. They had to wait in hades until Christ's coming to be changed. We are changed as soon as we die. Again, they had to wait for their hope to be fulfilled. We don't wait in hades to be changed. We are caught up in the twinkling of an eye.
If the futurists are correct then they all died without seeing their hope fulfilled. So where does that leave us? It is not rational for us to expect to receive anything if that whole generation died off without seeing the “blessed hope.”
thinker
JackNo Spin!
It is you that not to long ago went after David for claiming that Jesus resurection was simply a spiritual one.
Now you claim that our bodies will not be resurected and made like unto his glorious body.
Jesus is the firstfuits of the resurection. You are denying the resurection.
The word resurection does not mean ascension Jack.
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. “The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable“; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; “it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body“. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 1 15:42-44
If you deny the resurection you deny the Gospel message and the Blessed hope!
WJ
Worshippingjesus said:
Quote Jack No Spin!
It is you that not to long ago went after David for claiming that Jesus resurection was simply a spiritual one.
Now you claim that our bodies will not be resurected and made like unto his glorious body.
Jesus is the firstfuits of the resurection. You are denying the resurection.
The word resurection does not mean ascension Jack.
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. “The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable“; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; “it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body“. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 1 15:42-44
If you deny the resurection you deny the Gospel message and the Blessed hope!
WJ
Keith,
I went after David for denying that Jesus was raised up in the same body inwhich He was crucified. He had to appear in that same body so He could be with His disciples for the forty days. But that was NOT His permanent body. Paul said that these bodies are mere “tents” and as such they are temporary dwellings. He said that when these tents are dissolved we have our “eternal house” in the heavens. The body from heaven is our “house”, that is, our permanent dwelling. It is a real body but is nothing like the tents we now wear.The resurrection of Jesus was about His coming out of hades (Acts chapters 2 & 13). Paul said that He was raised up from the “abyss” (Rom. 10:7). His body was put in a tomb. It did not come out of the abyss. It was Jesus Himself that was raised up from the abyss. After He was raised from the abyss He appeared in the same body inwhich He was crucified holes, stripes and all of it.
He was the firstfruits of them that “slept” [in hades]. And He was transformed when He went to heaven. Again, He still needed that “tent” so He could be with His disciples for the forty days until His ascension.
But those who slept after Him did not need to be raised up in those tents. Those tents dissolved anyway. When Christ returned in ad70 the sleeping saints were resurrected from hades and they were transformed instantly to their permanent house that is “eternal in the heavens.” Hades was cleaned out and then cast into the lake of fire.
We are those who are “alive and remaining” after He came back. So we will not go down to hades because it has been destroyed. We are instantaneously changed the moment we put off our earthly “tents” and we when put on our permanent “house.”
Paul's statement about our body being transformed like Christ's glorious body is misunderstood. The word “soma” does not necessarily refer to the physical body. It often does but not necessarily. Paul said that “there is a natural (physical) body and there is a spiritual body.” According to Vine's Expository Dictionary the word “soma” stands, “by synecdoche, for the complete man” (p. 136). I believe that Paul was simply saying that our complete man will be transformed.
Paul said that the body which “is sown is not that body which shall be.” He said that it is “spiritual.” Then he adds, “This I say then, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”
Paul was in essence saying that those who slept would be raised out of hades immediately to be changed to their spiritual condition in their body from heaven.
David and the JW's are partially correct. But they err because they say that Christ also was immediately raised up to His spiritual condition. But we know He was not. He kept the tent for the forty days so He could be with His disciples. It was the same body inwhich He was crucified. After He was done with it He was changed and now dwells in His permanent house and “glorious body.” We know He was changed because He appeared to Paul and the glory of His presence blinded him. Paul says that this qualified him as an eye witness of Christ's resurrection. Paul did not see Him in the “tent” the disciples saw in that forty days. But Paul is an eye witness of His resurrection nevertheless. Therefore, Christ's resurrection was NOT about that mutilated body He wore for the forty days after He was resurrected. It was about His coming up out of hades TO His glorified condition. The tent He kept for the forty days was just transitional for Him. But there was no such transition for all the others who slept. They came out of hades immediately changed to their glorified state.
One of my chief problems with the futurist method is that their eschatology infers that hades still exists. And if hades still exists then we must sleep there until the resurrection. I believe that when Christ returned in ad70 He cleaned out hades of all that are His and then He cast it into the lake of fire. Ever since that time His people are “caught up” to meet Him and they immediatelyassume their spiritual condition in their body from heaven. This happens to each of us “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”
Paul did not mean that all are caught up at the same time and changed in the twinkling of an eye. He said, “each man in his own order.” But each is caught up and changed instantly when it comes his turn. Paul said that those who are alive and remaining (present participle) after His coming will be “caught up.”
Post ad70 saints are those who are “alive and remaining.”
PAUL SAID THAT THESE TENTS WILL DISSOLVE AND THAT WE HAVE A PERMANENT HOUSE “ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS” (2 Corinthians 4:17-5:5).
Again, the resurrection was about the saints coming out of hades to assume their permanent house which is “eternal in the hevavens.” So the futurists are wrong about the resurrection as they are about everything else.
Jack
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 12 2009,06:39) Hi TT,
As usual you err following your instincts rather than scripture.
Nick,
If I err it is not as a fool. Paul said that those who think that we will have the same body are “fools.”“36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain….”
He said that the body deteriotates (dies) and leaves the “naked grain” [the soul]. From the naked grain comes some OTHER grain [that is, another body].
By illustration Paul was saying that the souls of God's people were “sown” as “naked” grain. They were sown in hades. In the resurrection they came up out of hades to ANOTHER grain [body]. Paul said that this body is “eternal in the heavens” (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5).
Note what Paul said is the result of this:
“55 “ O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”There it is! Hades was vanquished in the ad70 resurrection when Christ returned. At that time it was cast into the lake of fire along with satan (Rev. 20). Since that time God's people don't go down to hades. They are caught up to meet the Lord and join those who have been with Him. They are immediately changed to their bodies that are “eternal in the heavens.”
If the Lord did not return to the first generation as was promised, then hades still exists and there is no such thing now as “going home to be with the Lord.” If hades still exists then God's people go to hades. They don't go home to be with the Lord until the so salled “future” resurrection.
This would have to be tens of thousands of years from now for God promised Abraham that He would show mercy to thousands of generations of his descendants. Since futurism says that mankind will no longer procreate after the resurrection, then tens of thousand of years must happen before the resurrection may take place.
Futurism is beset with an innumerable amount of problems.
You may want to wait thousands of years to see the Lord after you put off your earthly “tent.” But not me Bub!
Again, if I err it is not as a “fool” for I do not think that the body that shall be is the body I have now. Are you a “fool” Nick?
thinker
Hi TT,
If agreeing with you is necessary to not being a fool then I want to be one.
You are remarkably deluded.thinker
You ask,
“Again, if I err it is not as a “fool” for I do not think that the body that shall be is the body I have now. Are you a “fool” Nick?”Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
Georg
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 11 2009,14:30) Worshippingjesus said: Quote Jack No Spin!
It is you that not to long ago went after David for claiming that Jesus resurection was simply a spiritual one.
Now you claim that our bodies will not be resurected and made like unto his glorious body.
Jesus is the firstfuits of the resurection. You are denying the resurection.
The word resurection does not mean ascension Jack.
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. “The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable“; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; “it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body“. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 1 15:42-44
If you deny the resurection you deny the Gospel message and the Blessed hope!
WJ
Keith,
I went after David for denying that Jesus was raised up in the same body inwhich He was crucified. He had to appear in that same body so He could be with His disciples for the forty days. But that was NOT His permanent body. Paul said that these bodies are mere “tents” and as such they are temporary dwellings. He said that when these tents are dissolved we have our “eternal house” in the heavens. The body from heaven is our “house”, that is, our permanent dwelling. It is a real body but is nothing like the tents we now wear.The resurrection of Jesus was about His coming out of hades (Acts chapters 2 & 13). Paul said that He was raised up from the “abyss” (Rom. 10:7). His body was put in a tomb. It did not come out of the abyss. It was Jesus Himself that was raised up from the abyss. After He was raised from the abyss He appeared in the same body inwhich He was crucified holes, stripes and all of it.
He was the firstfruits of them that “slept” [in hades]. And He was transformed when He went to heaven. Again, He still needed that “tent” so He could be with His disciples for the forty days until His ascension.
But those who slept after Him did not need to be raised up in those tents. Those tents dissolved anyway. When Christ returned in ad70 the sleeping saints were resurrected from hades and they were transformed instantly to their permanent house that is “eternal in the heavens.” Hades was cleaned out and then cast into the lake of fire.
We are those who are “alive and remaining” after He came back. So we will not go down to hades because it has been destroyed. We are instantaneously changed the moment we put off our earthly “tents” and we when put on our permanent “house.”
Paul's statement about our body being transformed like Christ's glorious body is misunderstood. The word “soma” does not necessarily refer to the physical body. It often does but not necessarily. Paul said that “there is a natural (physical) body and there is a spiritual body.” According to Vine's Expository Dictionary the word “soma” stands, “by synecdoche, for the complete man” (p. 136). I believe that Paul was simply saying that our complete man will be transformed.
Paul said that the body which “is sown is not that body which shall be.” He said that it is “spiritual.” Then he adds, “This I say then, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”
Paul was in essence saying that those who slept would be raised out of hades immediately to be changed to their spiritual condition in their body from heaven.
David and the JW's are partially correct. But they err because they say that Christ also was immediately raised up to His spiritual condition. But we know He was not. He kept the tent for the forty days so He could be with His disciples. It was the same body inwhich He was crucified. After He was done with it He was changed and now dwells in His permanent house and “glorious body.” We know He was changed because He appeared to Paul and the glory of His presence blinded him. Paul says that this qualified him as an eye witness of Christ's resurrection. Paul did not see Him in the “tent” the disciples saw in that forty days. But Paul is an eye witness of His resurrection nevertheless. Therefore, Christ's resurrection was NOT about that mutilated body He wore for the forty days after He was resurrected. It was about His coming up out of hades TO His glorified condition. The tent He kept for the forty days was just transitional for Him. But there was no such transition for all the others who slept. They came out of hades immediately changed to their glorified state.
One of my chief problems with the futurist method is that their eschatology infers that hades still exists. And if hades still exists then we must sleep there until the resurrection. I believe that when Christ returned in ad70 He cleaned out hades of all that are His and then He cast it into the lake of fire. Ever since that time His people are “caught up” to meet Him and they immediatelyassume their spiritual condition in their body from heaven. This happens to each of us “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”
Paul did not mean that all are caught up at the same time and changed in the twinkling of an eye. He said, “each man in his own order.” But each is caught up and changed instantly when it comes his turn. Paul said that those who are alive and remaining (present participle) after His coming will be “caught up.”
Post ad70 saints are those who are “alive and remaining.”
PAUL SAID THAT THESE TENTS WILL DISSOLVE AND THAT WE HAVE A PERMANENT HOUSE “ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS” (2 Corinthians 4:17-5:5).
Again, the resurrection was about the saints coming out of hades to assume their permanent house which is “eternal in the hevavens.” So the futurists are wrong about the resurrection as they are about everything else.
Jack
JackIMO, again you are denying the resurrection!
Thou fool, “that which thou sowest is not quickened, (Gr zōopoieō made alive See Rom 8:11) except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and 'to *every seed* his own body“. 1 Cor 15:36-38
The resurrection is the “quickening” or raising up our mortal bodies (the seed) to be made like unto his glorious body.
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: “WHO SHALL **CHANGE OUR VILE BODY**, THAT IT MAY BE FASHIONED LIKE UNTO HIS GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20, 21
So Paul continues in 1 Cor 15 when he says…
“So also is the resurrection of the dead“. It is sown in corruption; “IT IS RAISED IN INCORRUPTION“: It is sown in dishonour; “IT IS RAISED IN GLORY“: it is sown in weakness; “IT IS RAISED IN POWER“: It is sown a natural body; “IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY“. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:42-45
This is what he means when he says “death is swallowed up in victory”!
The Greek word for “Raised” is Strong's G1453 – egeirō which is i
n the passive voice, the passive voice represents the subject (it the body) as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, “The boy was hit by the ball,” the boy receives the action.“Egeirō” is defined as;
1) to arouse, cause to rise
a) to arouse from sleep, to awake
b) to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life
c) to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc.
d) to raise up, produce, cause to appear
Jesus used the same “Egeirō” in the following verses…
Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days “I will rise (“Egeirō”) again“. 27:63
He is not here: for he is risen, (“Egeirō”) as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matt 28:6
Saying, The Lord is risen (“Egeirō”) indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. Luk24:34
Then we see Paul back in 1 Cor say 15:20-24
But now is Christ risen (“Egeirō”) from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming“. THEN COMETH THE END, WHEN HE SHALL HAVE DELIVERED UP THE KINGDOM TO GOD, EVEN THE FATHER; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Here we see Paul saying that Jesus is the firstfruits of those who are raised from the dead at his coming.
Jack says he already has come, and the New heavens and New earth is here and the end of the former has passed away.
Then Jack must concede that according to the above passages Jesus has already delivered the Kingdom back to the Father.
Tell us Jack, does Preterism teach that Jesus has already given the Kingdom back to the Father and God is all in all?
How do you reconcile that with 1 Cor 15:20-24 that says when he has come then the end has come and he delivers the Kingdom back to the Father?
How deep does this rabbit hole go?
Is Jesus now subservient to the Father? Has he delivered up the Kingdom yet? This happens when the end comes!
Keith
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 11 2009,14:30) The resurrection of Jesus was about His coming out of hades (Acts chapters 2 & 13). Paul said that He was raised up from the “abyss” (Rom. 10:7). His body was put in a tomb. It did not come out of the abyss. It was Jesus Himself that was raised up from the abyss. After He was raised from the abyss He appeared in the same body inwhich He was crucified holes, stripes and all of it.
JackThis is not at all what Jesus meant when he spoke of his resurrection!
Jesus answered and said unto them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise (egeirō) it up. John 2:19
It was his body that was resurrected and he is the first fruits of all those that are gonna be resurrected!
There is the word egeirō that is so often used for the raising up of these mortal bodies!
Keith
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote The resurrection is the “quickening” or raising up our mortal bodies (the seed) to be made like unto his glorious body. Keith,
Read it again in light of Paul's analogy. He said that the seed which is sown “dies”, that is, it dissolves. Then he said that what is left is the “bare” grain. The word for “bare” here is “naked.” The “body” of the seed dissolves and what is left is the “naked” grain. From the naked grain comes a body that Paul says is “other.” He said that we do not sow the body that shall be and that those who think this are “fools.”The soul is the “naked” grain. It is part of the “body” which is sown. So “body” by syecdoche means the whole man including flesh and spirit. The flesh dissolves and the spirit remains. From that comes a body which is totally other. Paul clearly said that it is “other.”
This is substantiated by Paul's statement that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”
You are not exegeting according to context. If you're going to convince me you must engage in exegesis that is based in “line upon line and precept upon precept.”
When will you get around to commenting on Jesus' statement that “some” would remain alive to His coming? Will you “allegorize” it like your futurist companions? They say that Jesus was referring to the transfiguration. But the kingdom of God did not come with power at the transfiguration.
And then there is Paul's use of “epeita” in 1 Thess. 4:17. He said that the dead would be raised FIRST and “AFTERWARDS we who are alive and remain will be caught up to join them.”
The word “epeita” conveys an interval of time between the resurrection of the dead and the catching up of the living. And the word “remaining” is a present participle indicating the continuous action of remaing after His coming.
I deny futurist Christianity's doctrine of the resurrection. It is thoroughly unbiblical. The historic creeds were not unanimous about it.
FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD
The word “cannot” is “dunamis” which means “power.” Flesh and blood is WITHOUT THE POWER to inherit the kingdom of God.
thinker
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
Paul says, by daily experience: for seeds are sown, and rot, and yet nonetheless they are far from perishing, but rather they grow up far more beautiful.
And whereas they are sown naked and dry, they spring up green from death by the power of 'Elohim: and does it seem incredible to you that our bodies should rise from corruption, and that endued with a far more excellent quality?
The grain that thou sowest has to die and be dissolved before it comes forth in a new life.
So the body must die and be dissolved.
Death is so far from hindering life, that it necessarily goes before it.
Why cannot you learn the lesson nature teaches?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 12 2009,14:43) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 11 2009,14:30) The resurrection of Jesus was about His coming out of hades (Acts chapters 2 & 13). Paul said that He was raised up from the “abyss” (Rom. 10:7). His body was put in a tomb. It did not come out of the abyss. It was Jesus Himself that was raised up from the abyss. After He was raised from the abyss He appeared in the same body inwhich He was crucified holes, stripes and all of it.
JackThis is not at all what Jesus meant when he spoke of his resurrection!
Jesus answered and said unto them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise (egeirō) it up. John 2:19
It was his body that was resurrected and he is the first fruits of all those that are gonna be resurrected!
There is the word egeirō that is so often used for the raising up of these mortal bodies!
Keith
Romans 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep (depth of the grave, emph. mine)? (that is, to bring up the Messiah again from the dead.)Another stumbling block with the Jews was the death and burial of the Messiah.
When Yeshua died on the cross, they held it to be proof that he was not the Messiah.
Bring up the Messiah again from the dead.
They still were wont to demand that they should see the Risen Messiah with their own eyes, or that he be produced from the grave.
To have met the demands of the Jews would have been sight rather than faith.
Quote King James Hebrews 13:20 Bible Now the 'Elohim of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Yeshua, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 13 2009,09:43) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 11 2009,14:30) The resurrection of Jesus was about His coming out of hades (Acts chapters 2 & 13). Paul said that He was raised up from the “abyss” (Rom. 10:7). His body was put in a tomb. It did not come out of the abyss. It was Jesus Himself that was raised up from the abyss. After He was raised from the abyss He appeared in the same body inwhich He was crucified holes, stripes and all of it.
JackThis is not at all what Jesus meant when he spoke of his resurrection!
Jesus answered and said unto them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise (egeirō) it up. John 2:19
It was his body that was resurrected and he is the first fruits of all those that are gonna be resurrected!
There is the word egeirō that is so often used for the raising up of these mortal bodies!
Keith
Keith,
As I have said to anti-trinitarians so I say to you: “A half truth is a falsehood.” You know that I confess that Jesus' body was raised up. But Paul said also that Jesus came up out of the abyss “from among the dead.”“or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from [among] the dead).”
The soul of Christ descended into the abyss (or hades). It is from hades that He was raised up from among the dead. His body was in a tomb by itself. But He was raised from the abyss where He was among the dead.
You're telling only the half of it. Jesus had to keep His mortal body for the forty days so He could appear to and be with His disciples. But we will not keep our mortal bodies because we will be “caught up” to heaven to appear before God and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The abyss, that is, hades was cast into the lake of fire in the judgment in ad70. Since that time all God's people are “caught up” to their “house” which is “eternal in the heavens” (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5).
Jack
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote The resurrection is the “quickening” or raising up our mortal bodies (the seed) to be made like unto his glorious body. For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: “WHO SHALL **CHANGE OUR VILE BODY**, THAT IT MAY BE FASHIONED LIKE UNTO HIS GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20, 21
Keith,
You ain't got it straight man! There are no contradictions in scripture! Paul said that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”First, The word “body” is “soma” and sometimes may indicate the whole man. I have already shown you this from Vine's.
Paul was referring to our whole humanity being changed and not the physical body. The word “body” here stands by synecdoche for our complete man. Our humanity will be transformed like to His “glorious humanity.”
Second, Paul said that our immortal body is invisible:
“while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal…
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven…”
The immortal body is “UNSEEN” and “eternal.” So even if the resurrection was future and involved a change in our earthly bodies it could not be observed by the mortal eye because the immortal body is INVISIBLE to us here.
Third, note that Paul said that our immortal body is “not made with hands.” This was an idiomatic expression which indicated that it will not be of this creation:
“But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.” (Heb. 9:11)
Hebrews says that the perfect tabernacle is “not made with hands.” Then he says, “that is, not of this creation.” So Paul was saying that our immortal bodies are not of this creation.
“FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE LINGDOM OF GOD”
WJ:
Quote So Paul continues in 1 Cor 15 when he says… “So also is the resurrection of the dead”. It is sown in corruption; “IT IS RAISED IN INCORRUPTION”: It is sown in dishonour; “IT IS RAISED IN GLORY”: it is sown in weakness; “IT IS RAISED IN POWER”: It is sown a natural body; “IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY”. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:42-45
I answered this point in an earlier post today.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 13 2009,06:53) WorshippingJesus said: Quote The resurrection is the “quickening” or raising up our mortal bodies (the seed) to be made like unto his glorious body.
Keith,
Read it again in light of Paul's analogy. He said that the seed which is sown “dies”, that is, it dissolves. Then he said that what is left is the “bare” grain. The word for “bare” here is “naked.” The “body” of the seed dissolves and what is left is the “naked” grain. From the naked grain comes a body that Paul says is “other.” He said that we do not sow the body that shall be and that those who think this are “fools.”The soul is the “naked” grain. It is part of the “body” which is sown. So “body” by syecdoche means the whole man including flesh and spirit. The flesh dissolves and the spirit remains. From that comes a body which is totally other. Paul clearly said that it is “other.”
This is substantiated by Paul's statement that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”
You are not exegeting according to context. If you're going to convince me you must engage in exegesis that is based in “line upon line and precept upon precept.”
When will you get around to commenting on Jesus' statement that “some” would remain alive to His coming? Will you “allegorize” it like your futurist companions? They say that Jesus was referring to the transfiguration. But the kingdom of God did not come with power at the transfiguration.
And then there is Paul's use of “epeita” in 1 Thess. 4:17. He said that the dead would be raised FIRST and “AFTERWARDS we who are alive and remain will be caught up to join them.”
The word “epeita” conveys an interval of time between the resurrection of the dead and the catching up of the living. And the word “remaining” is a present participle indicating the continuous action of remaing after His coming.
I deny futurist Christianity's doctrine of the resurrection. It is thoroughly unbiblical. The historic creeds were not unanimous about it.
FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD
The word “cannot” is “dunamis” which means “power.” Flesh and blood is WITHOUT THE POWER to inherit the kingdom of God.
thinker
JackQuote (thethinker @ Nov. 13 2009,06:53) He said that we do not sow the body that shall be and that those who think this are “fools.” Of course it is not the body that shall be! But the soul is not the seed that is sown, the body is. It is the body that dies Jack!
Please listen to the clear language of Paul’s words…
“So also is the resurrection of the dead“. It is sown in corruption; “IT IS RAISED IN INCORRUPTION“: It is sown in dishonour; “IT IS RAISED IN GLORY“: it is sown in weakness; “IT IS RAISED IN POWER“: It is sown a natural body; “IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY“. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:42-45
The context is speaking of the flesh, our bodies.
Are our souls sown in dishonor and weakness and corruption, and are our souls a “natural body”?
“IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY”.
Let me use some of your own language Jack…
There it is Jack, “IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY”. the soul is not the body that is sown.
This totally demolishes the false teachings of the Preterist because it is proof that the resurrection has not happened yet for there are still millions of bodies still in the graves!
Now to put the nail in the coffin Paul says…
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: “WHO SHALL **CHANGE (metaschēmatizō) OUR VILE BODY**, THAT IT MAY BE FASHIONED LIKE UNTO HIS GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20, 21
The Greek word for change is Strong's G3345 – etaschēmatizō which is defined as…
1) to change the figure of, to transform
A synonym of metaschēmatizō is metamorphoo G3339 which is also defined…
1) to change into another form, to transform, to transfigure
a) Christ appearance was changed and was resplendent with divine brightness on the mount of transfiguration
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, “And was *transfigured* (metamorphoo) before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light“. Matt 17:1, 2
So the Apostles did see a glimpse of the coming Kingdom and the glorious bodies that we shall have which is like unto his!
We get the English word “metamorphous” from “metamorphoo” which is the same kind of change that a caterpillar goes through in a cocoon!
Just as a caterpillar is “changed” so shall our vile bodies be changed!
So it is written…
”SO WHEN THIS CORRUPTIBLE SHALL HAVE PUT ON INCORRUPTION, AND THIS MORTAL SHALL HAVE PUT ON IMMORTALITY”, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor 15:55
Take note everyone, the Preterist view robs Jesus of the victory that he the firstborn from the dead won for us when he raised up his temple and becoming the firstfruits of those that are raised from the dead and thereby conquering death and the grave and now by that same spirit will raise our bodies to be fashioned like unto his glorious body and in so doing “Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory”
Preterist deny the resurrection of the Body which is our blessed hope!
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